BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Apotheosis69]

Garganta most likely will be Low 1-C. Just NO one will scale to it, besides possibly Prime Adyneus through the Sea of Creation splitting (though depends on if they will be connected when Cour 4 comes).

And before you say Soul King Yhwach can... that is only a statement from Ganju saying it to Yukio. and Ganju is NOT a reputable source. PLUS, its beyond Clear he only said this to Convince/Guilt trip Yukio into not sitting his ass down in Garganta and help out.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Definitely plausible but idt L1-C is viable because of insignificance stuff but let's wait for cour 4 and input from others and let's how people decide to tackle stuff.

Mind elaborating

 

[Naeblis495]

Garganta most likely will be Low 1-C. Just NO one will scale to it, besides possibly Prime Adyneus through the Sea of Creation splitting (though depends on if they will be connected when Cour 4 comes).

And before you say Soul King Yhwach can... that is only a statement from Ganju saying it to Yukio. and Ganju is NOT a reputable source. PLUS, its beyond Clear he only said this to Convince/Guilt trip Yukio into not sitting his ass down in Garganta and help out.

Ganju is very much a reputable source.
He is part of a noble family who's ancestors were there during the split and even have plans of the D0 dimensional barriers. if anyone know what would happen if the SK's work is undone, it's a noble.

He is one of the most reputable source on the matter, above 99% of the rest of the cast.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Ganju is very much a reputable source.
He is part of a noble family who's ancestors were there during the split and even have plans of the D0 dimensional barriers. if anyone know what would happen if the SK's work is undone, it's a noble.

He is one of the most reputable source on the matter, above 99% of the rest of the cast.

No. Kukaku would know a looot more about it. Not Ganju, Period.

 

[Naeblis495]

No. Kukaku would know a looot more about it. Not Ganju, Period.

They can both know ? Why do you think she have all the knowledge when she displayed none but Ganju have no knowledge when he actually did display some ?

Seems completely arbitrary and biased to me.

 

[Apotheosis69]

They can both know ? Why do you think she have all the knowledge when she displayed none but Ganju have no knowledge when he actually did display some ?

Seems completely arbitrary and biased to me.

What has he displayed, that is on that level in particular? Please show proof, and I'll eat my words

 

[Naeblis495]

What has he displayed? Please show proof, and I'll eat my words

His statement about the garganta not existing if Yhwach win. It's a very clear cut statement that HE specifically say.

Please show me what Kukaku said on the matter, please. Like ANYTHING.

Ganju have at least this clear cut statement. Kukaku have jack shit.

 

[Apotheosis69]

His statement about the garganta not existing if Yhwach win. It's a very clear cut statement that HE specifically say.

Please show me what Kukaku said on the matter, please. Like ANYTHING.

Ganju have at least this clear cut statement. Kukaku have jack shit.

As before, he literally only said that/made that up to make Yukio go with them. Nothing More.

 

[Naeblis495]

As before, he literally only said that/made that up to make Yukio go with them. Nothing More.

You have to prove this. But you have nothing.

You can't just hand wave such a clear cut statement like this.

 

[Cipher72]

Mind elaborating

Iirc you need to prove that the higher dimension is Infinite across 5 vectors otherwise it's 5-D but not L1-C again that's what I remember which is why a lot of DBS stuff doesn't qualify so it might be higher into 2-C instead of L1-C Unless we can wank a hypertimeline from somewhere. If you just need to show that it's infinite across 3 dimensions or of universal size it would most definitely qualify.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Iirc you need to prove that the higher dimension is Infinite across 5 vectors otherwise it's 5-D but not L1-C again that's what I remember which is why a lot of DBS stuff doesn't qualify so it might be higher into 2-C instead of L1-C Unless we can wank a hypertimeline from somewhere. If you just need to show that it's infinite across 3 dimensions or of universal size it would most definitely qualify.

would it not qualify for that by virtue of embedding the three worlds as its subsets? since theyre accepted as low-2C individually

 

[Cipher72]

would it not qualify for that by virtue of embedding the three worlds as its subsets? since theyre accepted as low-2C individually

I Honestly don't know how VSBW will treat this sort of thing in all transparency, from my limited understanding in order for a Higher dimension to be significant it needs to be
- Of Universal size or greater

Now from what ik and from the recent threads I have seen just being infinite size isn't enough (albeit it was a case with strings which Bleach doesn't suffer from) still I think you need to prove that all 5 directions are Infinite.

In a way, yes, though not how most would think when using this word. Basically, an arbitrary object of dimension n is essentially comprised by the total sum of uncountably infinite objects of one dimension less, which may be described as lower-dimensional "slices", each corresponding to one of the infinite points of a line. For instance, a square is made of infinitely many line segments (Lined up on the y-axis), a cube of infinitely many squares (Lined up on the z-axis), and so on.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ
One may think of it as a multiplication between sets: For instance, the unit square [0,1]² may be expressed as the product of two unit intervals [0,1] x [0,1], which itself can be visualized as taking "copies" of the first interval and lining them up along each point of the second interval, of which there are uncountably infinitely-many, thus forming a square out of infinite line segments.

And then we have this segment

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

Now idt Garganta has any such statements of seeing the embedded SS,HM or WOTL as infinitesimal so it might not qualify.
Again don't take everything I am saying at face value because I myself don't know about this, it's better to consult with a staff or someone knowledgeable this is just my inference from reading the FAQ.

 

[ichimojii]

As before, he literally only said that/made that up to make Yukio go with them. Nothing More.

He did say his sister told him about the Royal Palace in the anime. Furthermore he heard yourichi and ichigo talking about the reio and his role while on their rockect ride to the soul palace. So he for sure knows what the reio can do

 

[ichimojii]

I Honestly don't know how VSBW will treat this sort of thing in all transparency, from my limited understanding in order for a Higher dimension to be significant it needs to be
- Of Universal size or greater

Now from what ik and from the recent threads I have seen just being infinite size isn't enough (albeit it was a case with strings which Bleach doesn't suffer from) still I think you need to prove that all 5 directions are Infinite.

And then we have this segment

Now idt Garganta has any such statements of seeing the embedded SS,HM or WOTL as infinitesimal so it might not qualify.
Again don't take everything I am saying at face value because I myself don't know about this, it's better to consult with a staff or someone knowledgeable this is just my inference from reading the FAQ.

DBS has a low complex cosmology and it's set up is similar to bleach cosmology. The hyperbolic time chamber and the other universes have their own space-time and are embedded in a higher space-time..

The 3 realms and the dangai have their own space-time inside a higher space-time that is the garganta. Tho tbh you could argue the dangai by itself is a 5D. It's stated to be dimension containing many overlapping layers of space-time in the databook unmasked

"A dimension filled with overlapping layers of time"

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Garganta getting it makes sense to me, but Dangai? not so much it fails to satisfy the requirement of size, for something that's a pipeline for two worlds it does not make sense for it to be 1:1 to them in size otherwise it would be it's own world

 

[Cipher72]

DBS has a low complex cosmology and it's set up is similar to bleach cosmology. The hyperbolic time chamber and the other universes have their own space-time and are embedded in a higher space-time..

The 3 realms and the dangai have their own space-time inside a higher space-time that is the garganta. Tho tbh you could argue the dangai by itself is a 5D. It's stated to be dimension containing many overlapping layers of space-time in the databook unmasked

"A dimension filled with overlapping layers of time"

DBS gets it's stuff from hypertimeline iirc

• Each macrocosm is a 2-C structure, each having 3 universal space-times which possess their own time dimensions.
• Zeno realm is Low 2-C structure.
- There are 12 macrocosms currently in a single timeline.
• The Demon Realm is a insignificant space-time dimension that is at least 4-A in size.

• The Second Demon World contains High 5-A sized planets (Mega and Giga), and overall is 4-A in size.
• The Third Demon World is a 4-A sized structure, and contains oceans capable of Death Manipulation.​

• The World of Void & the Subspace are nonexistent realms.
• Neutral space is an insignificant 5-D space containing all of 12-18 macrocosms and also acts as an in-between time axis having its own side ways level of time.
• The overarching Timeline contains all of the structures mentioned above and is 5-D hypertimeline

So unless you get hypertimelin like I said yea....

The 3 realms and the dangai have their own space-time inside a higher space-time that is the garganta. Tho tbh you could argue the dangai by itself is a 5D.

Correct but like I said the Garganta needs to reduce them to infinitesimal points. Speaking of that I have some wanks on how to achieve that but nothing too concrete.

Tho tbh you could argue the dangai by itself is a 5D. It's stated to be dimension containing many overlapping layers of space-time in the databook unmasked

"A dimension filled with overlapping layers of time"

I mean yea it's definitely 5-D (4D+1D{Time}) but it's insignificant.

Garganta getting it makes sense to me, but Dangai? not so much it fails to satisfy the requirement of size, for something that's a pipeline for two worlds it does not make sense for it to be 1:1 to them in size otherwise it would be it's own world

This basically but even then considering neutral zone didn't get it, I am quite Skeptic.

 

[Ralp0054]

Cour 4 can give us a lot of information about Garganta and the realms with information cards in the middle of the chapter, and many things can be clarified. We don't know if Kubo will include any new information about the verse, but in short, the cosmology blog will be consistent enough when Cour 4 comes out.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I finally worked on the new royal palace to seretei distance and this new distance is almost 20 times longer than the original calc. I also think this new one is a better fit for the narrative as scaling God tier Ichigo’s shunpo to that of regular characters is a very very unreasonable downplay. No hate to arc tho

I want to hear your thoughts on this new one before I post it for evaluation

 

[Cipher72]

I finally worked on the new royal palace to seretei distance and this new distance is almost 20 times longer than the original calc. I also think this new one is a better fit for the narrative as scaling God tier Ichigo’s shunpo to that of regular characters is a very very unreasonable downplay. No hate to arc tho

I want to hear your thoughts on this new one before I post it for evaluation

I agree with the logic, I know next to nothing about calcs but I think it's pretty reasonable. The stamina bit is the most iffy maybe we can lowball that a bit but I agree the value should be a lot higher than the current one.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I agree with the logic, I know next to nothing about calcs but I think it's pretty reasonable. The stamina bit is the most iffy maybe we can lowball that a bit but I agree the value should be a lot higher than the current one.

What do you mean about the stamina? Do you think it is not enough evidence to support ichigo having the stamina to move that long?

 

[Cipher72]

What do you mean about the stamina?

I don't think that oetsu knows about the treadmill feat also I don't think that Ichi would use shunpo for a week straight that's the only thing I am Skeptic on but idt there's any solid evidence to disregard the fact that he can use shunpo for a week or that oetsu doesn't know about Ichi's stamina.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I don't think that oetsu knows about the treadmill feat also I don't think that Ichi would use shunpo for a week straight that's the only thing I am Skeptic on but idt there's any solid evidence to disregard the fact that he can use shunpo for a week or that oetsu doesn't know about Ichi's stamina.

It's not really about ichigo himself but about reiyorku or spiritual energy. Ichigo at the time of that statement had roughly country levels worth of energy and he could use it for a week on a thread mill specifically designed to drain his reaitsu.

Both tenjiro and Fullbring Ichigo are so astronomically stronger than that version of ichigo and he can make estimates based off sheer portion of reiyorku ichigo has. So he doesn't really need to know his feats. Anyone with decent reiyorku can do that, hell it takes three months for isshin's reiyorku to be fully drained by the koryu.

So there is no reason to be concerned.

 

[Cipher72]

It's not really about ichigo himself but about reiyorku or spiritual energy. Ichigo at the time of that statement had roughly country levels worth of energy and he could use it for a week on a thread mill specifically designed to drain his reaitsu.

Both tenjiro and Fullbring Ichigo are so astronomically stronger than that version of ichigo and he can make estimates based off sheer portion of reiyorku ichigo has. So he doesn't really need to know his feats. Anyone with decent reiyorku can do that, hell it takes three months for isshin reiyorku to be fully drained by the koryu.

So there is no reason to be concerned.

Yea well aware of that, it's just that I would prefer a semi lowball where Ichigo doesn't use shunpo straight for a week but that's iffy and causes probelms, I don't think there's anything wrong or any problems with the calc btw it's just personal preference if you get what I mean.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Yea well aware of that, it's just that I would prefer a semi lowball where Ichigo doesn't use shunpo straight for a week but that's iffy and causes probelms, I don't think there's anything wrong or any problems with the calc btw it's just personal preference if you get what I mean.

I understand now, just wanted to clear up some confusions I thought you had. I could use that as a low ball but we don't know how fast travel speed without shunpo is in bleach.

 

[Apotheosis69]

I finally worked on the new royal palace to seretei distance and this new distance is almost 20 times longer than the original calc. I also think this new one is a better fit for the narrative as scaling God tier Ichigo’s shunpo to that of regular characters is a very very unreasonable downplay. No hate to arc tho

I want to hear your thoughts on this new one before I post it for evaluation

Nice to know. But shouldn't you calc the speed of Mimihagi and Yhwach's darkness in the same calc, so its not calc-stacking?

 

[Specterxxxx]

Off to calc Zaraki’s Lifting Strength.......

 

[Specterxxxx]

Nice to know. But shouldn't you calc the speed of Mimihagi and Yhwach's darkness in the same calc, so its not calc-stacking?

I will, after the calc gets accepted in a separate blog. It won't be calc stacking. I don't just want to choke up multiple calcs in one thread. Or would it be calc staking if I do it that way?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I finally worked on the new royal palace to seretei distance and this new distance is almost 20 times longer than the original calc. I also think this new one is a better fit for the narrative as scaling God tier Ichigo’s shunpo to that of regular characters is a very very unreasonable downplay. No hate to arc tho

I want to hear your thoughts on this new one before I post it for evaluation

Interesting Stuff, you brought good evidence to say Tenjiro would be knowledgeable about Ichigo’s speed

Tenjiro blitzing Soifon tho, is more so a feat of her not being able to react, proving she couldn’t even perceive would require a statement or something similar

The novel scans talk about Tokinada, I’m assuming there’s some explanation as to why you linked that for Soifon?

One of the supporting evidences is Ichigo reacting to Tenjiro but that’s yk- reaction speed, granted they don’t really make a distinction between travel and combat in story so I think the issue isn’t that big enough to hurt the scale

The distance is fine but also not fine, presumably this is for the calculations of feats going up down in a straight vertical line but the calculation would only be valid for the helix shaped staircase as Tenjiro just directly suggests Ichigo go down that which you know circling around something to go up takes wayyyy more distance to be traversed than just a simple up-down

I will, after the calc gets accepted in a separate blog. It won't be calc stacking. I don't just want to choke up multiple calcs in one thread. Or would it be calc staking if I do it that way?

No it won’t

 

[Specterxxxx]

Interesting Stuff, you brought good evidence to say Tenjiro would be knowledgeable about Ichigo’s speed

Tenjiro blitzing Soifon tho, is more so a feat of her not being able to react, proving she couldn’t even perceive would require a statement or something similar

We literally see she got perception blitz and she questions what type of his speed was that. From her facial expressions which is the main focus on the scene, she visibly makes an expression after her hand is restrained.

The novel scans talk about Tokinada, I’m assuming there’s some explanation as to why you linked that for Soifon?

Soi fon is the one who analyses tokinada fighting her sqaud and that very statement you read is her inner thoughts. Also, full bring ichigo is faster than ginjou who called candice worthy lightning speed attacks slow tho I could add that.

One of the supporting evidences is Ichigo reacting to Tenjiro but that’s yk- reaction speed, granted they don’t really make a distinction between travel and combat in story so I think the issue isn’t that big enough to hurt the scale

I think the overall point was to show them both being superior to soi fon's reaction.

The distance is fine but also not fine, presumably this is for the calculations of feats going up down in a straight vertical line but the calculation would only be valid for the helix shaped staircase as Tenjiro just directly suggests Ichigo go down that which you know circling around something to go up takes wayyyy more distance to be traversed than just a simple up-down

Okay, this was a misconception I aimed to clarify, those stairs are more or less meant to outline a path to the seretei for shunpo users not that they would need to walk on those steps. Majority of people bleach can't shunpo only mostly luitenant class and upwards can do so, so the existence of the stairs doesn't mean they would be using it aside from the fact that the stairs is meant to provide a transport and route for every body who is using that distance whether they can use shunpo or not.

Secondly, the stairs does not cover the entire route, it only goes till it reaches the atmosphere of the seretei because it has lead you there. And majority of the characters can walk on literally air. So I don't think Tenjiro would know all that and use walking on the steps as a measurement.

So it's more so that the stairs is a route to the seretei not a means of travel for everyone

No it won’t

Okay, I will do it like this, thanks for your input.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I have some massive disagreements with this but don't care to argue back and forth rn, so I'll just debate this fully in the actual CRT along with the other minor points I have in mind

 

[Ralp0054]

I finally worked on the new royal palace to seretei distance and this new distance is almost 20 times longer than the original calc. I also think this new one is a better fit for the narrative as scaling God tier Ichigo’s shunpo to that of regular characters is a very very unreasonable downplay. No hate to arc tho

I want to hear your thoughts on this new one before I post it for evaluation

I was recently looking for a way to find the distance myself, and I was going to try the method you chose, but don't you think the stairs pose a problem here? I tought that the one-week method Tenjiro mentioned applies to the stairs, and I gave up on that halfway through.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I was recently looking for a way to find the distance myself, and I was going to try the method you chose, but don't you think the stairs pose a problem here? I tought that the one-week method Tenjiro mentioned applies to the stairs, and I gave up on that halfway through.

The stairs hold no value aside directing a path to the seretei, since they do not complete the distance and almost every Shinigami can air walk, its why the stairs don't touch the seretei. Without those stairs, even true shikai ichigo won't get the seretei because he would get lost without any direction. So the existence of the stairs is needed but it isn't needed as a medium for transport for those that can air walk and use shunpo.

And let's even say they use the stairs, there is no proof they would move along the line of the steps as they move with shunpo because there are literally infinite paths to the next step thanks to air walk and in this case the Shinigami (ichigo) is hurrying up to the seretei so them using the fastest available path (a literal straight path) to the next step in the staircase still transcribes to the stipulations of the calc and would give the same results.

And tenjiro who knows all this wouldn't include the curves of the steps in his estimate, it would be contradiction the mechanisms of the story and how shunpo even works. So this is not a factor. I have other arguments but I will leave them to address @Ghostimuscrime counter arguments in my CRT.

 

[Ralp0054]

The stairs hold no value aside directing a path to the seretei, since they do not complete the distance and almost every Shinigami can air walk, its why the stairs don't touch the seretei. Without that stairs, even true shikai ichigo won't get the seretei because he would get lost without any direction. So the existence of the stairs is needed but it isn't needed as a medium for transport for those that can air walk.

And let's even say they use the stairs, there is no proof they would move along the line of the steps as they move with shunpo because they are literally infinite paths to the next step thanks to air walk and in this case the Shinigami (ichigo) is hurrying up to the seretei so them using the fastest available path (a literal straight path) to the next step in the staircase still transcribes to the stipulations of the calc and would give the same results.

And tenjiro who knows all this wouldn't include the curves of the steps in his estimate, it would be contradiction the mechanisms of the story and how shunpo even works. So this is not a factor. I have other arguments but I will leave them to address @Ghostimuscrime counter arguments in my CRT.

Then there are no other issues in my eyes, we are eagerly awaiting the CRT.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Does anyone really believe these guys slowly walk down a set of cross dimensional spiral stairs for 7 days? I’d imagine it’s only a method of transport for the fodder recruits living there.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Does anyone really believe these guys slowly walk down a set of cross dimensional stairs for 7 days? I’d imagine it’s only a method of transport for the fodder recruits living there.

Thats what I am saying, additionally tenjiro doesn't say it will take you a week to walk there, he says it will take a week if you use shunpo. Majority of bleach characters can't even use shunpo so those ones would need the stairs a lot more.

 

[KingTempest]

Nice to know. But shouldn't you calc the speed of Mimihagi and Yhwach's darkness in the same calc, so its not calc-stacking?

it won't be calc stacking

 

[ichimojii]

Interesting Stuff, you brought good evidence to say Tenjiro would be knowledgeable about Ichigo’s speed

Tenjiro blitzing Soifon tho, is more so a feat of her not being able to react, proving she couldn’t even perceive would require a statement or something similar

The novel scans talk about Tokinada, I’m assuming there’s some explanation as to why you linked that for Soifon?

One of the supporting evidences is Ichigo reacting to Tenjiro but that’s yk- reaction speed, granted they don’t really make a distinction between travel and combat in story so I think the issue isn’t that big enough to hurt the scale

The distance is fine but also not fine, presumably this is for the calculations of feats going up down in a straight vertical line but the calculation would only be valid for the helix shaped staircase as Tenjiro just directly suggests Ichigo go down that which you know circling around something to go up takes wayyyy more distance to be traversed than just a simple up-down

No it won’t

The stair case doesn't affect the distance much tbh. Ichigo estimated that if it takes a week with normal shunpo he should be able to get their in half a day. In which he got their in a little less then half a day.

Then the anime card said it the distance is so great it takes one week with a normal shunpo

 

[Apotheosis69]

it won't be calc stacking

What would make it calc stacking?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What would make it calc stacking?

We have a page for that

 

[KingTempest]

What would make it calc stacking?

calc stacking is when you use the calc for 1 feat for a completely unrelated feat

For example, somebody dodges light in new york in chapter 1 now you calc someone else's speedoff of them dodging a punch from them in london in chapter 30

completely unrelated feat

this is just the dimensions, size calc stacking doesn't really exist