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Azathoth and Outer Gods Tier

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I saw that but at least a lot of that info just says about non-dimensionality, not transcendence over the concept of dimensions. Unless someone can explain more specificly.
 
Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,


Till neither time nor matter stretched before me

But only Chaos, without form or place.


Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered


Things he had dreamed but could not understand,


While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered


In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.


They danced insanely to the high, thin whining


Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,


Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining


Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.


'I am His Messenger,' the daemon said,


As in contempt he struck his Master's head
 
Being transcendent of dimensions themselves is, by definition, the requirement for 1-A.

Outerverse level: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained.

Copied from our Tiering System.
 
How are they separate? If you have no dimensions you are either Point level or Outerverse. If something has gone past dimensions themselves and entered a dimensionless void and are still able to live, they are 1-A. I am not sure what else to add to this.

Edit: And this is coming from someone who hates the Lovecraft works. Thing is facts are facts and the Outer gods clearly qualify for 1-A.
 
Dimensionless void <<<<<<< Transdimensional void. Actually a lot of spatially bound characters were able to survive in a dimensionless place.
 
Ultima Reality said:
A void without dimensions is 1-A by definition
Click to expand...
How is that? If I understand correctly, no dimensions < 1 dimension < 2 dimensions < infinite dimensions < beyond dimensional scale.
 
I am not trying to downgrade them to 1-C, well, I don't know. I just was not sure if the most powerful of Chthulhu Mythos are even 1-A or below it. Yet according to the descriptions I have yet seen I don't see them as beyond dimensional beings.
 
You have to be trolling at this point. Nyalo's avatar took a being from dimensional space and brought them outside it, where the Outer gods live. This is clearly BEYOND dimensions, and the Outer gods are stated multiple times to be vastly transcendent of the dimensions that they just left. It doesn't get more clear cut than this.

Also why is Azathoth in this? It literally sees all of existence, including the Outer gods that live around it, as its dream. You can't get stronger than that.
 
You have to be trolling at this point. Nyalo's avatar took a being from dimensional space and brought them outside it, where the Outer gods live.

How am you trolling? You clearly just don't understand the difference I am trying to tell. Brought a being from dimensional space to a place with no dimensions, how is that beyond the concept of dimensions?
 
@Alonis

They are unbound by the concept of dimensions, hence they don't have any

...how is this so hard to understand?
 
I really don't think YOU'RE getting it. In fact I just checked your profile and it seems like Ant has believed you to be a troll in the past. I am inclined to agree.
 
Well can you show me that THEY trancends dimensional scale, not that the VOID itself is beyond dimensions (lets assume that).
 
Assaltwaffle said:
I really don't think YOU'RE getting it. In fact I just checked your profile and it seems like Ant has believed you to be a troll in the past. I am inclined to agree.
Click to expand...
"Believed"

That's really funny because the reason he thought that is that i "overused" the terms megaverse and omniverse, yet I defined those terms many times here I don't understand what is wrong in that.
 
Really, I don't want any trouble, that was just a question for me, not a revision request or something like that. Don't get it the wrong way.
 
Even if a being transcends all possible dimensions/infinitely infinite amount of dimensions, they aren't 1-A unless they surpass the *concept* of dimensions. That being said, the Outer Gods are definitely 1-A, because they transcend beings who transcend beings who transcend beings that transcend the concept of dimensions. Outer Gods are actually some of the highest-end 1-A's we have on the wiki.
 
i just


ok then.


  • As already stated, here's a Nyarlathotep avatar going past the boundaries of dimensioned space.
"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,

Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,

But only Chaos, without form or place."

  • The Ancient Ones are undimensioned and transcend those that are known, of which there are infinite.
"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

  • There are infinite dimensions, all of which are meaningless to the Outer Gods (and even lesser Archetypes, who aren't even Outer God level). Said beings also exist beyond all conceptions of size, time, and change, which are illusions lesser beings hold.
"The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other "Carters" his fancy or perception envisaged.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously."

  • Change is a lie, and only something experienced by beings who have some form of inner-world limit, such as dimensions.
"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding."

  • Literally just says the equivalent of "all beings of any number of finite or infinite dimensions are but projections of an unfathomably greater being who has no dimensional boundaries whatsoever".
"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it."

  • Even a garbage-tier (comparably) god has feats of transcending all of the relative, infinite-dimensional time and space.
"They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men. The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester's whim. Men of learning suspect it little, and ignore it mostly. Wise men have interpreted dreams, and the gods have laughed. One man with Oriental eyes has said that all time and space are relative, and men have laughed. But even that man with Oriental eyes has done no more than suspect. I had wished and tried to do more than suspect, and my friend had tried and partly succeeded. Then we both tried together, and with exotic drugs courted terrible and forbidden dreams in the tower studio chamber of the old manor-house in hoary Kent."

"Among the agonies of these after days is that chief of torments—inarticulateness. What I learned and saw in those hours of impious exploration can never be told—for want of symbols or suggestions in any language. I say this because from first to last our discoveries partook only of the nature of sensations; sensations correlated with no impression which the nervous system of normal humanity is capable of receiving. They were sensations, yet within them lay unbelievable elements of time and space—things which at bottom possess no distinct and definite existence."

"Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion."

"There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously know. My friend was vastly in advance as we plunged into this awesome ocean of virgin aether, and I could see the sinister exultation on his floating, luminous, too youthful memory-face."

  • Probably also worth noting that being beyond dimensional space is basically a fodder requirement in the verse. Remember how the world of the Ancient Ones earlier was referred to as "an infinitesimal thing" despite being undimensioned and transcending the infinite-dimensional boundaries of the physical world? That's because, as also posted above, things like the Outer Gods are not only beyond dimensional space, but also notions of change, size, being, and self.
Yeah.
 
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