At least High 1C Ancient greymon / garurumon ?

[LordWhis]

Since ancient greymon and garurumon's powers were passed down to their descendants (the greymons and garurumons respectively) shouldn't they be superior to Victorygreymon and zeedgarurumon.

Furthermore, they fought Lucemon who is 1C in his weakest incarnation, which would have been completely impossible if they are 3C like in their current ratings.

They are also noted to be above modern mega level digimon (which is a vague statement but still)

In some games Imperialdramon PM can Digivolve into Ancientgreymon (not very relevant but wanted to write it)

By their very nature Ancient Greymon and garurumon should scale above every single other greymon or garurumon ever (victorygreymon, shinegreymon, Zeedgarouroumon, etc.) except of course their digivolved forms- EmperorGreymon and Magnagarurumon.

This should scale to Emperorgreymon and magnagarurumon (makes sense since they defeated royal knights) and of course Susanoomon (who defeated a super demon lord).

 

[Okorito1]

Uh, this doesnt make any sense.


Just because they are the original version doesnt mean they are STRONGER, victory-greymon and Zeed-garurumon were specifically designed to kill yggdrasil, the ancient's aren't anything like that, and i'm fairly sure the lucemon in Frontier was an avatar, not a TSGDL

 

[HenryWong122]

The fight with Lucemon, which they didn't beat him in, would only make them At least 1-C.

 

[LordWhis]

The fight with Lucemon, which they didn't beat him in, would only make them At least 1-C.

It means that they aren't 3c as currently listed.

 

[LordWhis]

Uh, this doesnt make any sense.


Just because they are the original version doesnt mean they are STRONGER, victory-greymon and Zeed-garurumon were specifically designed to kill yggdrasil, the ancient's aren't anything like that, and i'm fairly sure the lucemon in Frontier was an avatar, not a TSGDL

But it is canonically stated that all later greymon/garurumon inherit/get their powers from them. They were the ultimate example of their species group and capable of everything later greynon and Garurumon were.

No later greymon or garurumon should be above them.

By their very nature they are the strongest grey/garurumon ever.

 

[LordWhis]

Also IIRC the Lucemon Susanoomon beat absorbed the data of every digimon in the world so logically speaking he should be equal to Shoutmon X7F superior mode who fused with every single digimon in the digital world so At least High 1C.

 

[VindictiveLoser]

Just stopping by to give my two cents.

Given the statement of all later Greymon/Garurumon inheriting their power from these two refers to naturally created Digimon, ones like the Arbitrators who were born from enhanced and modified digi-eggs shouldn't be counted among them. There powers weren't a result of their lineage, but were given to them by a stronger outside force. There's no logical reason to include the Arbitrators among those they scale to. Since they should only be above Digimon who inherit their powers, and this isn't the case with Victory/Zeed, scaling them makes no sense.

As for scaling to Lucemon, I'll leave that to people who know the material better than me. I'd recommend leaving a message to Dragon and Executor to have them check this out, since they're usually involved in Digimon CRTs.

 

[Okorito1]

Also IIRC the Lucemon Susanoomon beat absorbed the data of every digimon in the world so logically speaking he should be equal to Shoutmon X7F superior mode who fused with every single digimon in the digital world so At least High 1C.

I don't see how that works. Theres a difference between absorbing the Data, and fusing with the digimon. This is a fact that is shown several times. And lucemon Did not absorb the data of EVERY digimon, as chances are, there was RK's unused, dark area digimon that survived on top of the 10 warriors, While they could be 1-C, high 1-C would be out of the playing field

 

[LordWhis]

@vindictiveloser:

Shinegreymon burst mode is naturally evolving

Cresgarumon and blitzgreymon.

Actually ancientgarurumon's powers is said to be inherited by beast digimon so this would include Bancholeomon

Also I don't think Victory and Zeed being modified means they didn't inherit their power from the ancients or that their powers aren't included in the powers that the ancients have.

Also Ancientsphinxmon's powers were inherited by all demon beast digimon, making it stronger than Grandracmon

Ancientwisemon's powers were inherited by the mutant digimon which should include the mutant versions of the 7 demon lords

The ancient's powers were inherited by a variety of digimon species so it shouldn't be too hard to find even more examples

 

[VindictiveLoser]

The problem is there's no reason to believe that Victory and Zeed inherited their power from the Ancient Digimon, because we have direct statements that their current power was a result of digieggs being tampered with to create new Digimon. VictoryGreymon wasn't even born from a Greymon egg, it was originally a Gallantmon.

I'm gonna go through a few logical steps to demonstrate why Victory and Zeed being used for scaling here likely won't be accepted. First, we know that all later generations of Greymon/Garurumon Digimon inherited their powers from their Ancient Digimon ancestors. This means that any descendants of the Ancient Digimon can be assumed to have their powers shared with said Ancient Digimon. In other words, all Greymon Digimon's powers are derived from AncientGreymon, etc.

However, that only means that naturally born Digimon of that line would be counted. A modified Gallantmon wouldn't be counted among the Digimon AncientGreymon scales to. ZeedGarurumon is the stronger case for scaling here since it was originally a MetalGarurumon, however, it's current powers aren't a result of natural evolution, or some new mode being achieved. An outside force modified it's digiegg to give it much greater power.

That means Zeed is MetalGarurumon + outside interference. In other words, the only things from Zeed we can scale are anything it inherits from MetalGarurumon, which AncientGarurumon would already scale to.

It's easy to say "they might have inherited their powers" but without hard evidence we can't be making such major changes to the profiles. In fact, knowing what we do, it's much more likely that the Ancient Digimon don't scale at all to Victory or Zeed. As for the other scaling, I don't intend to speak on that.

And again, I'd suggest you leave a message to Dragon and Executor. They'd be more help on this matter than I could be.

 

[HenryWong122]

AncientGreymon: "Dragon Digimon" of the Greymon-species.

AncientGarurumon: Beast Digimon and Garurumon-species.

AncientMegatheriumon: Mammal and Ice-Snow Digimon

AncientIrismon: Bird Ma and Fairy Digimon

AncientBeetlemon: Insect Digimon

AncientVolcamon: Ore and Mineral Digimon

AncientMermaimon: Aquatic Digimon

AncientWisemon: Mutant Digimon

AncientTroiamon: Plant Digimon

AncientSphinxmon: Mythical Beast and Demon Beast Digimon

 

[VindictiveLoser]

I'm unfollowing since I doubt I'll be much help here in the future, and there isn't much I can add at the moment. I'd suggest drawing more attention to this, to get it finished more quickly.

 

[Okorito1]

@vindictiveloser:
Shinegreymon burst mode is naturally evolving

Cresgarumon and blitzgreymon.

Actually ancientgarurumon's powers is said to be inherited by beast digimon so this would include Bancholeomon

Also I don't think Victory and Zeed being modified means they didn't inherit their power from the ancients or that their powers aren't included in the powers that the ancients have.

Also Ancientsphinxmon's powers were inherited by all demon beast digimon, making it stronger than Grandracmon

Ancientwisemon's powers were inherited by the mutant digimon which should include the mutant versions of the 7 demon lords

The ancient's powers were inherited by a variety of digimon species so it shouldn't be too hard to find even more examples

There's many differences in what your saying. The ancient's were modified by yggdrasil himself to take them down, sayign the Ancient's have the power that Ygg gave SPECIFICALLY TO the two is just wrong. Because that would mean that the ancients scale above Ygg. Additionally just because the Ancients have the same powers, doesnt mean they are stronger. Take the royal knights and TSGDL's as example.

 

[LordWhis]

ancientgarurumon should still scale to bancholeomon and ancientsphinxmon to grandracmon, as High 1Cs go.

There are countless examples for 1C and actual feats of this level.

 

[Okorito1]

ancientgarurumon should still scale to bancholeomon and ancientsphinxmon to grandracmon, as High 1Cs go.
There are countless examples for 1C and actual feats of this level.

Ok, Ancientsphinx to grandrac i can maybe see, but BanchoLeomon is a digimon who EARNED his power,

To quote: Bancho (ÒâÉÒâ│ÒâüÒâºÒâ╝ Banchō?) is a group of five Digimon. It is said that only Digimon who continue to emerge victorious in battles with fierce champions, without their spirit being "broken", are able to acquire the title of "Bancho".


They were not born with the power, they earned it through how they fight, like how we see that digimon aren't born with an X antibody all the time.

 

[Okorito1]

ancientgarurumon should still scale to bancholeomon and ancientsphinxmon to grandracmon, as High 1Cs go.
There are countless examples for 1C and actual feats of this level.

Ok, Ancientsphinx to grandrac i can maybe see, but BanchoLeomon is a digimon who EARNED his power,
To quote: Bancho (ÒâÉÒâ│ÒâüÒâºÒâ╝ Banchō?) is a group of five Digimon. It is said that only Digimon who continue to emerge victorious in battles with fierce champions, without their spirit being "broken", are able to acquire the title of "Bancho".


They were not born with the power, they earned it through how they fight, like how we see that digimon aren't born with an X antibody all the time.

Actually just todo a bit more research, Grandracmon is a natural carrier of the X-antibody, which would show a reason for it to be stronger then the ancient's, as the ancient's most likely didnt exist in the time of the antibody.

 

[LordWhis]

Bancho got stronger by fighting so it's literally his natural power.

Grandracmon has been said to have been around since ancient times too.

 

[Okorito1]

Bancho got stronger by fighting so it's literally his natural power.
Grandracmon has been said to have been around since ancient times too.

That disproves both your points?


Saying grandrac has been around since ancient times would mean he would have been born seperately from the ancients


Also just because it's your natural power doesnt mean you can't make it stronger. If he gets stronger by fighting, then the Ancients dont get that power as its a strengthening of his own natural power.

 

[LordWhis]

It's still power that was his latent potential.

It proves that grandracmon was born not long after the ancients so him not scaling via x antibody makes no sense, especially since he is a natural carrier of it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Just saying, GranDracmon would have to of had existed at the same time as the Ancients if not before considering the lore behind the Dark Area and his contributions.

I also just don't agree with the Warrior Ten scaling to descendents. I am also not really sold on them getting all the abilities of their species as well as, well....that would lead to heavy, HEAVY extrapolation.

The most I can see is "possibly 1-C" and nothing more and even that I am not in complete agreement of.

High 1-C is just a huge no.

 

[LordWhis]

I mean the intention the authors had with them does seem to have been to make them the ultimate examples of their species, a possibly High 1C at the least is fair, or maybe even a note. I just can't see a mere Bancholeomon or Grandracmon being infinitely superior to the progenitors of their whole species.

They should definitely get 1C from fighting Lucemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But BanchoLeomon and GranDracmon have feats that surpass the Warrior Ten.

BanchoLeomon can fight on par with the Royal Knights. The Royal Knights can one shot the Three Great Angels, including Cherubimon who it took 2 beings stronger than their warrior Ten counterparts to beat.

GranDracmon is the most blatant one though. GranDracmon is superior to the SGDL in power. He's so powerful that the SGDL don't even want to interfere with him. So the Warror Ten being stronger than him is a blatant contradiction to lore and feats regarding GranDracmon who is far more powerful than you are giving him credit for.

 

[LordWhis]

They lack feats but they don't have any real anti-feats either apart from some of them getting killed by Lucemon who is far superior to any royal knight (maybe barring Magnamon and Jesmon because of their hax) and imo above Grandracmon too, just because he prefers not to interfere with him doesn't mean he can't.

Emperorgreymon and Magnagarurumon could stomp royal knights by EOS.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"They lack feats but they don't have any real anti-feats either apart from some of them getting killed by Lucemon who is far superior to any royal knight (maybe barring Magnamon and Jesmon because of their hax)"

And guess what? It took 10 Warriors just to seal him away. Royal Knights do not need that many to fight off Lucemon. Also, are you gonna ignore the whole "weaker than the Three Great Angels thing?"

"and imo above Grandracmon too, just because he prefers not to interfere with him doesn't mean he can't."

Your opinion is incorrect as they note that it is a situation of actual power and not because they choose not to, but more that they cannot interfere with him due to said power.

A Demon Beast Digimon that is considered the king of vampire Digimon. It has kept a castle in the Dark Area since ancient times, and it boasts of such power that even the Seven Great Demon Lords cannot interfere with it. It has a gentlemanly demeanor, and because of the "Charm" effect within the voice Grand Dracumon exudes, it has tales that can lead any Angel Digimon who comes to subdue it into falling down. It is told that it possesses an undying body, and although it is said that it is connected to the details of how the Dark Area came to be within the Digital World, or that it knows the truth of the mysterious evolution, "Death-X", because it's difficult just to struggle your way to the castle, you'd have to say that questioning it about these mysteries would be extremely arduous.
	~ GranDracmon Official Reference Book​

.

"Emperorgreymon and Magnagarurumon could stomp royal knights by EOS."

KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon are also superior to the Warrior Ten as they are superior to Aldamon and Beowulfmon respectively, who of which inherit the full power of AncientGreymon and AncientGarurumon. Yet it still took both of them to defeat Cherubimon and they were consistently defeated by the Royal Knights until the end of the series where they go stronger. So scaling to KaiserGreymon and MagnaGarurumon is not going to fly.

 

[Executor_N0]

I'm a little busy with upcoming projects, but:

1) I agree that 3-C Warrior Ten is very low

2) Scaling the Ancients to every other Digimon of the same species makes no sense, they are simply the progenitors of the next generations of ultimates. And yes, it's perfectly possible to the new generations to be infinitely stronger than the progenitors, not everything that the new generation has is from the progenitors. The whole reason for the Digital Hazard in the Chronicle Storyline is because the Digimon are evolving with too much data from outside the Digital World, so they are pretty much evolving with a power that isn't from the progenitors

3) Btw, ReArise revealed that the Warrior Ten war against Lucemon also include Lucemon Falldown Mode. Anyway, the whole scaling with the Warrior Ten should be: Transcendent Species (Kaiser Greymon/MagnaGarurumon) > Double Species (Aldamon/Beowolfmon/Jet Silphymon/Rhino Kabuterimon/Daipenmon/Raihimon) > Warrior Ten > Individual Human/Beast Spirits

I think that we could scale the Warrior Ten to the Double Species, but saying that "Comparable, but inferior to 'Double Species counterpart'".

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But what do we scale the Double Species to? Their tier mostly comes from wherever the Warrior Ten themselves come from.

 

[Executor_N0]

Oh, I thought that the Double Species was in an higher tier, my bad

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Who defeated BlackSeraphimon? As that could scale to the Double Species if they did it.

 

[Executor_N0]

Aldamon

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So we could possibly scale them to BlackSeraphimon, however I am unfamiliar with those circumstances.

 

[Executor_N0]

Aldamon: Defeated Black Seraphimon (We could use "Resisted Black Seraphimon Testament, whose power is said to be able to recreate the Big Bang" in the durability section).

The other Double Species: Comparable to Aldamon

Warrior Ten: Comparable, but still inferior, to Aldamon

We could put a note saying that Cherubimon battled the Double and Transcendent Species with a big buff, or we could simply create a new key for when Cherubimon had the power of the Digital World.

 

[HenryWong122]

Aldamon fought ShadowSeraphimon and his Testament works differently. Testament (Shadow Starburst/Shockwave): Wraps its arms around the opponent and electrifies them with its body, or explodes with dark energy.

 

[Executor_N0]

To be fair, there isn't anything official that says that BlackSeraphimon's Testament is weaker than Seraphimon, if BlackSeraphimon is simply Seraphimon boosted with Darkness, then they should be similar. Unless any official description say otherwise.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Actually, considering it is boosted, then it's likely that BlackSeraphimon's is more powerful. But at least equal.

 

[HenryWong122]

https://wikimon.net/Black_Seraphimo The one you're talking about. https://wikimon.net/Black_Seraphimon_(DW3) The one most people think about.

 

[Executor_N0]

True, I have the tendency to use Japanese names than the western ones.

 

[LordWhis]

I think it was stated that the double species are weaker than the warrior ten.

@executor: normally I'd agree but the alter species were stated to inherit their powers from the ancients and that combined with the statement about them being stronger than current Megas strongly implies they are the ultimate examples of their species and should scale above later digimon. The goal and the intention of the writers was to show that that these are the ultimate greymon/ garurumon etc.

 

[Executor_N0]

A Digimon that possesses power over Flame that has transcended legend by inheriting all the might of one of the legendary Ten Warriors and acquiring unknown abilities.

Having inherited the powers of the Warrior Ten of Fire, it gained yet-unknown abilities and surpassed legend by fusing the powers of human and beast. It fights by changing the emotions of fear and anger into the power of justice.
	~ Aldamon Jintrix Profile​

This is the standard for every Double Spirit Digimon, they has all the might of their Warrior Ten counterpart, and new unknown abilities.

 

[LordWhis]

I see, I guess I might have been mistaken.

 

[Marcusbwfc]

the same aldamon attacks a malomyotismon and does literally nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng7iQnrRu4k

4:03

wargreymon then proceeds to one shot three of them, gallantmon one shots 4 of them, shinegreymon kills one, marcus damon kills 4 of them with one punch

it then takes susanoomon and inmperialdramon dragon/fighter mode teaming up to kill three venom mysotismon (weaker than malo)

those aren't very good feats for the frontier and 02 casts compared to the rest (they got shown up in this scene), and aldamon is weaker than those. aldamon literally is the only one who is shown to do 0 damage in this battle.