Ash Ketchum's Mountain level stats (Pokemon)

[BoomeYang]

Hi, I'm making this thread because I'm not sure why Ash is rated Mountain level (7-A).

His justifications for his current tier are:

Superior to Wulfric who own a well-trained Abomasnow. In the final round his Pikachu defeated Tyranitar and Metagross, and his Greninja fought with Mega Charizard X.

I have a few problems with these justifications.

1) Being superior to an Abomasnow is not a good justification because Abomasnow is City level (currently incorrectly indexed as City level+ [his calc is 50.07 Megatons, while to be City level+ you need at least 53 Megatons]).

2) Metagross is Multi-City Block level (8-A) by calcs made on this wiki. Again, not a reasonable justification for Mountain level Ash.

3) This is the one I have the more problems understanding.

Tyranitar being Mountain level is not supported by anything. Not only is his rating justified by Pokedex entries, which technically are databooks for Pokemon (databooks are largely unreliable and are written mostly to build up hype for the character), but also his Pokedex entry says "he's so strong he can crumble mountains to build his nest". There's nothing suggesting about the timeframe nor the size of said mountains so this is not a good reason. Also there's a rule on the Pokemon page saying:

• When used as a justification for power levels, only highly specific Pokédex entries should be used (i.e. if the Pokédex states that a Pokémon is able to destroy a mountain without specifying the size of the mountain or the timeframe used, it is not viable for calculation or as an individual feat).

Another thing I'd like for someone to address is the inconsistent profiles for his Pokemon. In his profile it says his Pokemon (mainly Pikachu and Gerninja defeated Mountain level Pokemon), while these profiles are much lower than that Pikachu, Greninja, Charizard. Why is this happening? As far as I know, Pokemon profiles here are composite meaning they should be the same level. That is if the current ratings are justified.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

1) He beat a Mega Abomasnow, which is >>>> Abomasnow, which is City level

2) Alain's Metagross would be comparable in power to his Tyranitar

3) Pokedexes arent databooks, theyre documentation of pokemon in-verse. We take Pokedex entries as primary information for pokemon, and entries such as:

"In just one of its mighty hands, it has the power to make the ground shake and mountains crumble."

Suggest that its with a single attack, which is a 7-A feat considering the size of the mountains in the Johto Region. That on top of Larvitar's ability to consume mountains in a short period of time and Pupitar's ability to topple mountains just by thrashing around further support Tyranitar's rating as Mountain level.

We consider Trainer pokemon as separate from individual pokemon, otherwise literally every pokemon in the verse would be 7-B to 7-A scaling from Tyranitar or Gyarados in some way.

 

[BoomeYang]

1) He beat a Mega Abomasnow, which is >>>> Abomasnow, which is City level

Abomasnow in base form is City level+ though despite the calc putting him at City level.

Also, if we treat Trainer pokemon as separate from individual pokemon, can we add how do they differ in power amongst each-other? For example, on Ash's Mountain level rating, are all his Pokemon Mountain level, or there are other weaker Pokemon as well? For someone that doesn't know much about the verse such as me, this is extremely confusing.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Firstly, Pokedexes are not databooks. They're scientifically written records (in-universe) docuementing the behavior of various Pokemon. They don't simply exist to build hype. Most don't build hype in any shape or fashion, like Dodrio having three brains or the hunting habits of various Pokemon. In-Universe, these are essentially the encyclopedia regarding these Pokemon.

Second, Tyranitar was said to be able to destroy "great mountains" just by walking. Obviously, these mountains are supposed to be huge, and he does this with just a fraction of his power. Even his weaker forms can destroy mountains quickly. Mountain level for Tyranitar has been long accepted by multiple staff members.

Thirdly, since Tyranitar quakes these mountains just by walking, it means he's doing it in singular attacks.

Fourthly, those pages are for wild Pokemo, not trained ones. Ash's Pikachu even has a City level feat on its own, at a much earlier point in their adventure, so the page for wild Pikachus should not be used to gauge the power of Pikachu's.

 

[BoomeYang]

Okay okay I'm sorry, I'm just not clear is all. Can you answer my above question as well please?

Also, if we treat Trainer pokemon as separate from individual pokemon, can we add how do they differ in power amongst each-other? For example, on Ash's Mountain level rating, are all his Pokemon Mountain level, or there are other weaker Pokemon as well? For someone that doesn't know much about the verse such as me, this is extremely confusing.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Sorry if the tone came off as harsh, I've bee rather on edge tonight.

Anyway, what you suggested has been suggested and discarded a few times (although I think adding a "Composite Pikachu" key isn't a bad idea), however since it caused some confusion, I think adding links to trainers profiles and explaining why the two are seperate is a good idea.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

For what it's worth Greninja can harm Charizard-X which has shrugged off attacks from 50% Zygarde (maybe shrugged off is a bit strong of a word, he took I think two attacks and looked fine although in the momkent of being hit he clearly looked like he was getting hurt so it's not a casual thing). Although Charizard is still>>Greninja so it probably doesn't matter much at all.

 

[Kaltias]

@J-Man

Pretty sure that this is an outlier for Charizard X, otherwise he'd be 6-A

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Well he did also take and attack from Mega Ray (got his ass kicked) and from primal Groudon (once again got floored) so yeah, I can see it being an outlier but he has taken attacks from multiple legends before and the earlier examples were from when he was far weaker so not sure.

Honestly just wanted to bring it up, if it's an outlier I'm fine with that as 6-A Charizard does seem iffy considering I think that'd mean Lysandre, Steven and Ash would get 6-A too which would then scale to everyone basically so outlier is a possibility.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To be fair here having durability feats doesn't mean your AP is anywhere near as good. Charizard X tanking those attacks upon being floored would mean his durability is great but his power is no where near that level. Still not pushing for this just giving 2 cents.

And to be perfectly honest shouldn't trained Tyranitar be "At Least 7-A"? After all, even wild larvitar and pupitar can easily do 7-A feats and are clearly inferior to wild Tyranitar. And trained versions of all 3 should be much stronger since they are trained.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I brought it up because Ash Greninja would need to have a decent fraction of that AP to harm Charizard since Charizard's dura potentially exceeds Zygarde's casual AP, basically some powerscaling and I honestly don't remember but maybe Lysandre's Gyrados? I don't remember if it or Charizard fought but if it did and actually did damage maybe it would scale but then again, this is considering it ain't an outlier. So we got Charizard taking a hit from Zygarde 50% (shrugging it off) a weaker incarnation getting hit by Primal Groudon (it wasn't knocked out and remained Mega but it did take massive damage and couldn't exactly fight afterwards) and Mega Ray (although if I recall actually ohkoed it) and Ash Gren should scale to it's durability to a small extent.

Although it could be outliers or something so maybe someone more into the anime can take a look since outside of stuff that was hyped up like the finale and the mega specials I barely seen any of the XY anime.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

How come that, regarding scaling Ash and his personal teams, nobody brings up the feats against legendaries?

Charizard defeating Articuno (there's also the case in the 3rd movie in which it held its ground against Unown!Entei but since it's not a real Entei we can't know its true AP so I digress), Pikachu defeating Regice and Latios, and Sceptile defeating Darkrai. Even in Alain's case I am not sure if we can call his feats outliers since his MegaZard X while not besting them managed to hold his ground for a while against the likes of Mega Rayquaza, Primal Groudon and 50% Zygarde.

Keeping this stuff in mind, I'd rather argue for Small Island or Small Country Ash, depending on the team, I suppose.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Well theres the whole anime=/=game canon thing but the profiles here are composite but that doesn't mean it makes Anime Zygarde=game Zygarde and the like. So small country I wouldn't be sure about but small island seems like a potential tier for a select few others like Gren, Sceptile (implying that Darkrai equals the M10 Darkrai) or the whole Regi stuff, who are featless in the anime essentially. Although the Primal feat for a weaker Zard does seem like itd be a huge boost as the Primals are monsters in all canons so there wouldn't be any qualms against something like anime Groudon being country tier.

 

[Dark649]

Tyranitar pokedex description in the anime is the same from the game. Abomasnow calc is 50 megatons which is city level.