Asahi (Shin Megami Tensei) as well as the other cast members

[ElfenGoku]

So after playing the game, it's clear that there is a misconception about the power of the SMT IV: Apocalypse cast. Nanashi's and even Flynn's placement at High 2-A is good since they did defeat YHVH. But if you look at the canon, it was Nanashi and Flynn that did pretty much all of the fighting. The others pretty much just provided support. Also, Asahi is definitely not High 2-A. Her profile bothered me the most. She stated countless times throughout the game that she is nothing without Nanashi and even in-game everything she does is with her demons, not herself. Imagine Asahi fighting someone like Aleph or Tadano (Strange Journey Protagonist) and really ask yourself if she can really beat, or even be on par, with them. Didn't think so either. Without her cell phone, she couldn't stand up to the Persona cast. I feel that everyone save for Nanashi and Flynn should be much, much lower than High 2-A. Hell, I doubt they even qualify as 2-A if you look at the canon with the exception of maybe Hallelujah since he does have powers of his own and stood up to his dad. Gaston is another one, but he does have Odin's spear so I guess making him 2-B would make sense. Navarre's job is only support, so he's definitely not 2-A. Nozomi is the queen of the fairies, and since Uber Pixie is 2-B, placing her at 2-B makes sense. Not 2-A though. Same with Toki. Isabeau is 2-A, but again, not High 2-A. High 2-A is reserved for the messiahs (Nanashi and Flynn) in my opinion. Also, my reasoning is also backed up by the fact that once you go to Cafe Florida, everyone is freaked out about how they can't summon demons (Gaston, Navarre, and Nozomi included. Can't remember if Toki panicked too) and how only Nanashi was able to do so as a result of Dagda's power. This implies that story-wise they all use demons to fight and don't just fight themselves. It also makes sense aboout the rest not being on Nanashi's level since Nanashi went through so much to get his power.

What do you guys think of my reasoning?

 

[The_Everlasting]

The very fact that they can participate in the final battle and not die literally immediately shows they're at least in the same tier, even if their power varies.

And keep in mind that you could literally be trillions of times weaker than a High 2-A being and still be High 2-A, as no numbers will make you a whole dimensional level below.

Besides, IIRC, the power of two of the party members managed to create Satan who, in Apocalypse, was the very last opponent before YHVH himself and helps Flynn and Nanashi kill YHVH in the Massacre Route.

 

[ElfenGoku]

Satan was made with Walter and Jonathan after fusing with Lucifer and Merkabah respectively I believe. And if Asahi really was High 2-A on her own, why would she need a demon? I think seperate statistics for her is in order. Besides, she got eaten by Shesha, someone far inferior to the likes of Lucifer and Merkabah. Granted she was protecting Nanashi, but still, getting eaten by Shesha doesn't exactly prove to me that she can take hit from YHVH. I'm pretty sure Nanashi, Flynn, Walter, Jonathan, and maybe Isabeau were the ones taking the bulk of the damage.

And this is a bit off-topic, but shouldn't we also upgrade Kazuya, Aleph, and Demi-Fiend to High 2-A? They did fight against Stephen, who is High 2-A. And unlike Asashi, Hallelujah, and the others, the didn't use demons nor did they jsut provide support. They actually physically fought. The tiering would still be the same (with Kazuya being far inferior to Aleph and Demi-Fiend) but they should get the same treatment as well since they fought Stephen and with much less help than the party against YHVH.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Walter + Jonathan = Satan.

A High 2-A / 2 is still a High 2-A

Isabeau also directly fought in the Final Battle, as she is an Actual Party Member.

But up until then she was just a support character, just like Asahi, Gaston, Toki, Navarre, etc.

So they all should scale to her.

And no, we shouldn't give High 2-A everyone because of a non-canon Fanservice DLC. Stephen's profile is composite from Canon Artbook Lore and his powers in the Boss Fight.

 

[ElfenGoku]

The DLC isn't canon? How so? Because it's DLC? By the logic, Noel and Serah shouldn't scale to Gilgamesh due to it being a "fan-service DLC". Hell, Gilgamesh even references you downloading that part of the game.

And Isabaeu was always far stronger than the other support characters as evidenced by her starting level when you get her. She is also more experienced and has the best feats out of the whole support cast. It also doesn't help that Asashi still got killed by a far lesser enemy than Lucifer and Merkabah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's Non-Canon because it's a crossover that does not at all fit with the scaling, unless you think that an Early Mid-Game Kazuya who died to a Nuke is High 2-A.

Sure, Isabeau is initially far stronger, but the characters level up and get stronger as they face bigger enemies. Asahi got killed by Shesha-Flynn, who is arguably above Lucifer and Merkabah, or at least comparable, yes. But she was revived and later participated in battles against far stronger opponents (Satan and YHVH).

Isabeau up until last fight is a Support character, just like all the others. They are comparable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Asahi is definitely not High 2-A. Her profile bothered me the most. She stated countless times throughout the game that she is nothing without Nanashi and even in-game everything she does is with her demons, not herself. Imagine Asahi fighting someone like Aleph or Tadano (Strange Journey Protagonist) and really ask yourself if she can really beat, or even be on par, with them. Didn't think so either. Without her cell phone, she couldn't stand up to the Persona cast."

Asahi is a White Mage and the weakest member of the cast, yes. But she is not 100% weaker, and IS capable of doing some damage to Nanashi in the Massacre route. Using demons is not an argument, everyone does it. In regards to Asahi vs Aleph or Tadano, were they in battles against YHVH's true self? Would they be able to provide even a Support Role? Also, Asahi can be hit by YHVH and survive. The part about the Persona Cast is simply ridiculous.

"Hell, I doubt they even qualify as 2-A if you look at the canon with the exception of maybe Hallelujah since he does have powers of his own and stood up to his dad. Gaston is another one, but he does have Odin's spear so I guess making him 2-B would make sense. Navarre's job is only support, so he's definitely not 2-A. Nozomi is the queen of the fairies, and since Uber Pixie is 2-B, placing her at 2-B makes sense. Not 2-A though. Same with Toki. Isabeau is 2-A, but again, not High 2-A. High 2-A is reserved for the messiahs (Nanashi and Flynn) in my opinion."

Completely inaccurate. Characters have better feats. Gaston is above Odin by the end, and why 2-B if Odin here is 2-A? Navarre is support but he does attack enemies, the only 100% non-offensive Support is Asahi who just heals. The Nozomi thing makes no sense.

Isabeau, who is simply a support character up until the last battle, is somewhat comparable to Walter and Jonathan, who when combined are Satan. If she is High 2-A for scaling to them, so is everyone else for being comparable to her by the end-game.

 

[MagiSinbad]

Haaaaiizzz.... here we go again

But if you look at the canon, it was Nanashi and Flynn that did pretty much all of the fighting.

Gotta give you a NOPE on this part, the member of the supporting side are actually damaged YHVH, more than ever, they have survived YHVH's attacks. If they were lower than tier High 2-A, then they will get smashed into the dust when an attack that infinite times stronger than them hit them. Since Demonized YHVH seriously hitting them, i dont see why they wouldnt be High 2-A

She stated countless times throughout the game that she is nothing without Nanashi and even in-game everything she does is with her demons, not herself. Imagine Asahi fighting someone like Aleph or Tadano (Strange Journey Protagonist) and really ask yourself if she can really beat, or even be on par, with them. Didn't think so either. Without her cell phone, she couldn't stand up to the Persona cast

No, Mido would never let you summon a demon that is stronger than you, Tokyo Revelation and Megami Tensei (first volumne of the novels) are the biggest evidence for what will happen if you summon a demon that is stronger than you (the demon will rebel again you and maybe even kill you for good). For that, Asahi's demons can only strong as her, not stronger.

Another thing is every demon have their own universe surround them , when they got killed, that universe will crumble along with them. This willl give anyone above Loki and Seth is Low 2-C, so no. Nobody in Persona can stand a chance again Asahi

and how only Nanashi was able to do so as a result of Dagda's power.

Dagda only back Nanashi up for more power. Nothing proves that he is stronger than end-game Nanashi.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew and The Everlasting.

 

[Tivanenk]

Shesha is not weaker than Merkabah and Lucifer. He was able to replace Flynn and fight on even grounds with them at Camp Ichigaya. Also, Nozomi has both Danu's and Inanna's powers, so she's definitely up there as well.

 

[Zianmoon2]

Shesha is not weaker than Merkabah and Lucifer. He was able to replace Flynn and fight on even grounds with them at Camp Ichigaya. Also, Nozomi has both Danu's and Inanna's powers, so she's definitely up there as well.

I would have to disagree on Shesha not being weaker. The only thing Shesha even did during the Lucifer fight was act as part of your diversion and surprise attack him. From what I remember, it didn't even do that much damage(Pretty sure it skipped his turn). Nanashi, and the rest of the team did the real work against Lucifer and Merkabah.

I have to agree on the Nozomi part, she's probably one of the more powerful members of the supporting cast, considering her more important role to the plot.

 

[Tivanenk]

Shesha is not weaker than Merkabah and Lucifer. He was able to replace Flynn and fight on even grounds with them at Camp Ichigaya. Also, Nozomi has both Danu's and Inanna's powers, so she's definitely up there as well.

I would have to disagree on Shesha not being weaker. The only thing Shesha even did during the Lucifer fight was act as part of your diversion and surprise attack him. From what I remember, it didn't even do that much damage(Pretty sure it skipped his turn). Nanashi, and the rest of the team did the real work against Lucifer and Merkabah.
I have to agree on the Nozomi part, she's probably one of the more powerful members of the supporting cast, considering her more important role to the plot.

He was in a stalemate with Lucifer and Merkabah before you arrive and was pretty much the head of the entire thing.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

He was in a stalemate with Lucifer and Merkabah before you arrive and was pretty much the head of the entire thing.

This is Shesha's final evolution before becoming the Egg, correct?

I don't recall there was evidence that they personally engaged in battle before you arrive. It was pretty much just the minions doing all the work, which makes sense when you consider that only god-slayers can kill demons and angels for good.

Him being head of the entire thing isn't scale-able to AP either, considering he mostly just sent his minions after his enemies for the majority of the battle, making many of them suffer horrifying deaths.

However, I do think he should scale considering Shesha did manage to hurt Lucifer when you agree to distract him, allowing you to deal the finishing blow.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Shesha-Flynn was going to replace the original Multiverse, by the way. He should at least scale to Kagutsuchi

 

[Zianmoon2]

While I still disagree with Shesha being around Lucifer level, I see where you guys are coming from, and once Shesha/Ananta gets his own profile, I have no objections with his profile being that way. On the topic of Ananta(Pre SMT IV Apocalypse Shesha), he should scale to normal Vishnu, who is far, far, far weaker than Krishna, and I would put Ananta himself at around Kagutsuchi level.(Plus, he is said to be infinite, which would mean he reaches the 4 Dimensional level.) 1st form Shesha(The fiery one "killed" by Gaston and Nanashi) is from what I've heard and seen, only 2-C.

 

[Extreme123dz]

in whitch Game / Compendum say that shesha/ananta is an infinite being/cause infinite gravitational singularity (or something like this)?

a question only

 

[Zianmoon2]

His name itself means infinite. I don't remember anything about gravitational waves.

 

[Tivanenk]

The gravitational waves only happened from his warping.

 

[Extreme123dz]

question, takes the Name is valid? and have scans/video of his gravitational waves? i rly want to see e.e