Armstrong's Hardened Body-AP Boost?

[Eseseso]

So I see that Armstrong's durability is considered higher than his base durability when his body is hardened (in response to physical trauma).

So I'm thinking: Shouldn't his AP go up when his body is hardened too? And get something in his AP like "higher with hardened body/fists" like his durability currently has?

1. If his body is more durable when his skin is hardened, that makes his fists harder as well, so his punches are naturally stronger when hardened than in base. And he's clearly shown doing both hardened and unhardened punches.

2. The cutscenes seem to imply that his hardened punches are stronger than normal punches, like him hardening only his fists and not the rest of his body multiple times when fighting Raiden in cutscenes after he gets serious.

Also, Raiden could (barely) catch a one-handed punch from normal Armstrong using both of his hands (which IMO should make base Armstrong at least 2x base Raiden since Raiden was barely blocking it even with both hands), yet got thrown around far easier by punches when Armstrong's fists were hardened.

3. Although he destroyed the Excelsus with hardened fists, it doesn't change the scaling since Base Raiden still easily tanked it yet Base/unhardened armstrong alone still stomped Base Raiden and was naturally far more durable.

Thoughts?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

An interesting take on things. I'll hold my thoughts until others comment.

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, if you're wearing a suit of armor (like what a knight would wear), your punches are going to hurt A LOT more than without the armor.

 

[Armorchompy]

Eeeeeh no, I don't really agree, I think they just harden because punching something is, indeed, physical trauma for your hands. It's possible he hits a little harder by virtue of the hands being iron-solid but I wouldn't really call that an amp, it's how things happen.

which IMO should make base Armstrong at least 2x base Raiden since Raiden was barely blocking it even with both hands

Definitely not how that work, nevermind that that was a LS thing.

 

[Eseseso]

Eeeeeh no, I don't really agree, I think they just harden because punching something is, indeed, physical trauma for your hands. It's possible he hits a little harder by virtue of the hands being iron-solid but I wouldn't really call that an amp, it's how things happen.

Definitely not how that work, nevermind that that was a LS thing.

1. If his durability is notably higher from his body hardening, then IMO his AP should be the same because he has been clearly shown punching with and without hardening his hands on separate occasions, with his hardened body punches often being portrayed as stronger (like when he sends Raiden flying with a casual hardened punch and easily cracks the floor of Excelsus with one punch). He also only began using hardened punches against Raiden once he was somewhat serious (as in, after his speech and revealing of his nanomachines).

1.5. When Base Armstrong punches Raiden when Raiden is off-guard (and checking that his bottom jaw is ok), it merely sends him skidding across the "ground". When Hardened Arms Armstrong does it, it sends an off-guard Raiden soaring.

2. Raiden blocking the punch with both hands (barely) while Armstrong was actually using one during the punch would mean that the punch itself was AP (so Raiden blocking it with both hands means that his AP in Base should be half of Base Armstrongs). The LS part is him pushing against it.

2.5. Also, this is a Hardened Body feat, but Armstrong with a Hardened Arm easily caught a 2-handed sword strike from Raiden (before breaking his sword).

 

[Armorchompy]

If his durability is notably higher from his body hardening, then IMO his AP should be the same because he has been clearly shown punching with and without hardening his hands on separate occasions, with his hardened body punches often being portrayed as stronger (like when he sends Raiden flying with a casual hardened punch

He's stronger anyway, and sending someone flying isn't a noteworthy feat for a tier 7.

and easily cracks the floor of Excelsus with one punch

Doesn't necessarily imply superiority

He also only began using hardened punches against Raiden once he was somewhat serious (as in, after his speech and revealing of his nanomachines).

"Revealing his nanomachines", exactly, dude was keeping them semi-hidden.

When Base Armstrong punches Raiden when Raiden is off-guard (and checking that his bottom jaw is ok), it merely sends him skidding across the "ground". When Hardened Arms Armstrong does it, it sends an off-guard Raiden soaring.

That's... not an indication of strength, he just punched him at a different angle.

Raiden blocking the punch with both hands (barely) while Armstrong was actually using one during the punch would mean that the punch itself was AP (so Raiden blocking it with both hands means that his AP in Base should be half of Base Armstrongs

We don't use this kind of logic for scaling, it's dumb.

Also, this is a Hardened Body feat, but Armstrong with a Hardened Arm easily caught a 2-handed sword strike from Raiden (before breaking his sword).

Yeah nobody's contesting that Armstrong is stronger, but nothing here is actual evidence that hardening his arms makes him stronger

 

[Eseseso]

Well if it doesn't scale to AP since he's just hiding his nanomachines, then IMO he should not have on his durability that it is "higher with hardened body".

What he SHOULD have, IMO, is that his AP, speed, and durability are "higher with Red Aura", as in that aura he used against Sam.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well if it doesn't scale to AP since he's just hiding his nanomachines, then IMO he should not have on his durability that it is "higher with hardened body".

His body hardens. That makes it more durable. It does not necessarily allow it to hit harder.

 

[Eseseso]

His body hardens. That makes it more durable. It does not necessarily allow it to hit harder.

But he was just hiding the nanomachines. Otherwise his non-black body wouldn't be so durable.

And if your body is tougher, it usually means you hit harder.

If a human who was normal but turned into stone punched you, it'd hurt a lot more than if that same guy but with a normal body punched you.

 

[Armorchompy]

But he was just hiding the nanomachines. Otherwise his non-black body wouldn't be so durable.

Sam cutting off his arm clearly shows that he's less durable when that hardening doesn't happen.

And if your body is tougher, it usually means you hit harder.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's an amp, it's like saying "9-C with baseball bat, higher when holding it with both hands"

 

[Eseseso]

Sam cutting off his arm clearly shows that he's less durable when that hardening doesn't happen.

OK, that's fair.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's an amp, it's like saying "9-C with baseball bat, higher when holding it with both hands"

Questionable comparison, but ok.

How about, instead of his hardened body amplifying his AP, we say:

"Higher with Red Aura or Charged up attacks", as in the attacks during the final battle that have a yellowish aura as he winds them up. They clearly have far more power than normal punches, such as how a single charged up punch can barely be blocked by Ripper Mode Raiden, who struggles clearly more than Base Raiden did against a normal punch from a casual Armstrong.

And his Red Aura clearly boosts his AP, Dura, and speed a good deal.

 

[Abstractions]

If his durability is notably higher from his body hardening, then IMO his AP should be the same because he has been clearly shown punching with and without hardening his hands on separate occasions, with his hardened body punches often being portrayed as stronger (like when he sends Raiden flying with a casual hardened punch and easily cracks the floor of Excelsus with one punch).

I'm sorry but that's just not how it works, the nanomachines harden to reinforce his durability, not his strength, it's why he makes a whole point of the idea that Jack can't hurt him because of them.

AP scales to durability but "not the other way around", so I firmly disagree with this.

 

[Bobsican]

Definitely not how that work, nevermind that that was a LS thing.

Holding back an attack falls as Durability rather than LS apparently IIRC

 

[Eseseso]

I'm sorry but that's just not how it works, the nanomachines harden to reinforce his durability, not his strength, it's why he makes a whole point of the idea that Jack can't hurt him because of them.

AP scales to durability but "not the other way around", so I firmly disagree with this.

Well ok then. Can't argue with an admin.

How about, instead of his hardened body amplifying his AP, we say:

"Higher with Red Aura or Charged up attacks", as in the attacks during the final battle that have a yellowish aura as he winds them up. They clearly have far more power than normal punches, such as how a single charged up punch can barely be blocked by Ripper Mode Raiden, who struggles clearly more than Base Raiden did against a normal punch from a casual Armstrong.

And his Red Aura clearly boosts his AP, Dura, and speed a good deal.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well ok then. Can't argue with an admin.

I mean, you can. Not that you should since I don't think you're right regarding the nanomachines, but you can

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, you can. Not that you should since I don't think you're right regarding the nanomachines, but you can

1. I appreciate the support, but I've learned from past experiences that it's next to impossible.

2. Since the nanomachines thing looks to be a no-no, what about listing that his AP goes up with both charged up attacks (the ones with the yellowish aura that can send lava coming out of the ground) and the Red Aura (which would also be a speed and durability boost).

 

[Armorchompy]

red aura boosting AP is fairly straightforward i think, idk about the rest, charged attacks are just energy projection and idk if that's necessarily stronger

 

[Eseseso]

red aura boosting AP is fairly straightforward i think, idk about the rest, charged attacks are just energy projection and idk if that's necessarily stronger

Well the charged attacks seem to be tougher, like how one charged punch was barely blocked by Ripper Mode Raiden with his sword (and even then the sword is knocked away), and he's struggling far more than normal Raiden did when using both hands to block Base Armstrong's punch.

And I think that Red Aura thing boosted his speed too, don't remember if it boosted his durability.

 

[Abstractions]

1. I appreciate the support, but I've learned from past experiences that it's next to impossible.

You're free to argue with me if you want to, if my position is what's preventing people from having a conversation with me I'd rather they just pretend I didn't have it at all, because I hate the stigma.

red aura boosting AP is fairly straightforward i think, idk about the rest, charged attacks are just energy projection and idk if that's necessarily stronger

I think it would be counter-intuitive to waste time charging up a specific attack if it didn't have any added benefit, I'm sure they're just stronger than his regular punches.

And I think that Red Aura thing boosted his speed too, don't remember if it boosted his durability.

If you're uncertain of if it doing those things and don't have a scan to back it up it would be more of a hassle for you to argue for it, so I suggest just not doing so unless you do.

 

[Eseseso]

You're free to argue with me if you want to, if my position is what's preventing people from having a conversation with me I'd rather they just pretend I didn't have it at all, because I hate the stigma.

I know, but I've had some bad past experiences. Besides, I've looked at the cutscenes again and you're right anyways. So this point is dropped.

I think it would be counter-intuitive to waste time charging up a specific attack if it didn't have any added benefit, I'm sure they're just stronger than his regular punches.

Probably stronger by a large margin, given that one charged punch did a lot more to Ripper Mode Raiden than a normal non-serious punch did to Base Raiden.

If you're uncertain of if it doing those things and don't have a scan to back it up it would be more of a hassle for you to argue for it, so I suggest just not doing so unless you do.

Actually, looking back at the Sam vs Armstrong fight, and while the Red Aura only seems to boost AP (as Sam's attacks do the same amount of damage as they did to normal Amstrong), I noticed that when he charges up before charging with an attack, he moves far faster than his usual charges, basically blitzing Sam (and the screen) with Sam usually barely rolling out of the way.

The Red Form, however, doesn't seem to boost speed either, just AP.