Arceus vs Othinus

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1st. Okay my bad then. I just said it depends so you can be right also. But arent those abilities used by infinitely weaker pokemon than the god tiers? Of course we would never see those abilites used on tier 2 levels like Arceus is at, im only saying that those abilities should be as strong or as good as the tier that Arceus is in and nothing higher than his tier. They shouldnt be officially labled as such when they arent specific classified abilities. Many pokemon of different strengths and tiers can have them among each other so there's no real way to say they lack the feats of a specific tier. Like in my example, we shouldnt say Static or Blaze are under, lets say, tier 6 when there can be stronger pokemon of the same type with the same ability in a higher tier like tier 4. It should depend on the level of the user who has the ability. Actually to to tell the truth, Wonder Guard, Imposter and Trace have likely never been used outside game mechanics. The only reason why im even suggesting Arceus has these abilities is due to his creator status so there's no real way to say those specific abilities are under tier 2 when the only pokemon who logically has them above all else is Arceus.

2nd, Oh I see. Then im not sure about this one. If it's like you say it is, then you are right but if it's how I say it is, then my point on that one should stand still.

3rd, As far as the elemental abilities go I definitely agree. However Dragon, Normal and Fairy are a different case. Like I said before, im not saying every attack in fiction is automatically classified as a pokemon type, but these 3 types specifically can have anything classified under their typing. The reality warping part I get but it depends on how its getting warped. Even something like beam or energy attacks can be classified as something they have totally no connection to, like the Normal or Bug example. There's even Aurora Beam, a rainbow colored beam, thats classified as ice...and logically isnt fairy power just magic? And magic has a pretty wacky way of doing things...and i've made my case for Dragon. Overall, defining techniques that wouldnt be classified under these types (not the elemental ones of course) would be extremely difficult.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

well, Aurora Beam is ice due to it being an Aurora which is usually only seen really far north (maybe south? i'm not very knowledgable about weather phenomona), and due to being that far north, really freaking cold. that's at least what i'm thinking for it's ice classification. Signal Beam... are there any bugs irl that use light to communicate? Hyper Beam is just gathering and fireing a beam of nonelemental energy so normal works (trivia, despite being a beam Gen 1 counted this as a physical attack rather than a special one)

I'm half tempted to suggest a thread be made to define just what the requirements would end up being to classify attacks from other fictions as pokemon types, if there isn't already one buried somewhere. i'd assume a lot would probably fall under normal, but certain supernatural things might not fit. spirits and such could be ghost, ect, but what about something like pure magic? or slightly off topic but from Toaru Verse, what type would the Angels' Telesma or Kakine's Dark Matter count as? It's worth considering although might end up slightly chaotic. (Minor edit, i'd assume anything that doesn't fall under the definitions would be our "typeless" category rather than typless having it's own definitons, just to quickly clarify)

Fairy power being magic... i suppose it depends on the definition of magic for the verse, i'm pretty sure Toaru's explanation doesn't line up with most verses that use fairies but i wouldn't be able to confirm this.

We should possibly try and confirm the Darkrai thing, but it's not as important i suppose.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

well, Aurora Beam is ice due to it being an Aurora which is usually only seen really far north (maybe south? i'm not very knowledgable about weather phenomona), and due to being that far north, really freaking cold. that's at least what i'm thinking for it's ice classification. Signal Beam... are there any bugs irl that use light to communicate? Hyper Beam is just gathering and fireing a beam of nonelemental energy so normal works (trivia, despite being a beam Gen 1 counted this as a physical attack rather than a special one)
I'm half tempted to suggest a thread be made to define just what the requirements would end up being to classify attacks from other fictions as pokemon types, if there isn't already one buried somewhere. i'd assume a lot would probably fall under normal, but certain supernatural things might not fit. spirits and such could be ghost, ect, but what about something like pure magic? or slightly off topic but from Toaru Verse, what type would the Angels' Telesma or Kakine's Dark Matter count as? It's worth considering although might end up slightly chaotic. (Minor edit, i'd assume anything that doesn't fall under the definitions would be our "typeless" category rather than typless having it's own definitons, just to quickly clarify)

Fairy power being magic... i suppose it depends on the definition of magic for the verse, i'm pretty sure Toaru's explanation doesn't line up with most verses that use fairies but i wouldn't be able to confirm this.

We should possibly try and confirm the Darkrai thing, but it's not as important i suppose.

Hmm. For Aurora Beam i honestly never thought of that connection lol. That makes sense. Tho isnt Hyper Beam just an energy wave of some sorts? Like a Z fighters KI, and a KI blast in Pokemon terms would be more like fighting since its drastically similar to fighting moves like Aura Sphere or Focus Blast. Im not sure if Hyper Beam counts as a life force beam of some sorts but i guess it can count as Normal. Honestly i'd make the thread you were thinking of so we can continue this topic elsewhere (sorry for getting off topic xD) and we can get some clear answers.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

Guys try not to quote large blocks of text.

^ this

but yeah, honestly we do need to know just what counts as a type and what doesn't. Because if it counts as a type Arceus can counter it, with the exception of grass type due to the original poster's arbitrary decision to not give that plate to Arceus. Othinus's only breathing room is nontypes and grass atm, but without an adequate way to determine what is and isn't classifyable as a type... well, that's why we need a thread to determine that.

However i do have to ask yet again:

-How long would it take Arceus to undo a phase

-Would Arceus be able to destroy a phase before it gets embedded like Kamisato/World Rejector did in cannon (although the phase was a different Magic God's, rather than Othinus)

-Would Othinus simply be able to embedd a phase that strips Arceus of it's power?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I doubt Arceus could have its power be taken away by force (at least without a fight). The only reason his plates were removed at all was because he personally gave them up. Not saying anyone cant take it away from him but not alot at the same time .

 

[Wyver_Luna]

Well, i mean, it'd be more along the lines of preventing them from existing rather than truely taking them from Arceus, but there's also the chance that Othinus could make a phase that slowly removes them from arceus via it's own will or forcable removal, a few at a time. i don't remember Arceus having any acasuality feats, in fact the movie (although delayed for dramatic tension) does show Arceus as being affected by timeline changes. so would Othinus win via timeline recreation hax?

(Edit, although honestly Arceus having created a god of time makes me feel REALLY odd about if Arceus actually doesn't have some form of acasuality.)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

that was a more limited Arceus then what we have now. The Arceus in the movie who fought the trio lost like 5 plates. Here he's only losing like one so hes extremely closer to his complete power. The timeline thing might also be PIS but I could be wrong

Also the plates shouldnt be bound by wills considering they are a part of Arceus's existence and Arceus existed before he created the concept of will, so they should be immune to any willpower type hax

 

[Wyver_Luna]

it might be PIS, i'll let someone else more experianced in the matter decide that

On the other hand, assuming no acasuality, i didn't particularly mean willpower hax (not sure if Othinus even has any) but something closer to rewriting the timeline to make more events where Arceus might willingly give it's plates to someone. She did something similar when trying to break Touma's will by recreating the universe a lot of different times to put Touma in various situations (actually, is Touma considerable as acasual due to this? i can see arguments for and against. kinda very off topic though). Although part of the reason Touma's will didn't break is because the Will of the Misaka Network somehow is acasual (despite none of the Misaka clones being acasual) saw what he was going through, and convinced him to not give up. Arceus doesn't have someone to tell it that giving up the plates is going to end up badly, but might be callous enough to not give them up. especially since part of the reason Arceus gave some plates up in the movie is because a plot relevant character saved Arceus from a case of PIS

 

[LazyHunter]

It is off-topic, but I don't see any arguments for Touma or Will being acausal. I think you misunderstood what happened. I don't know your argument for Touma, but Will's situation was clearly explained in the volume: Othinus couldn't control her like she could control the other characters because her control is likely an evolved form of her Einherjar magic, and can thus only manipulate living and dead people. Will is neither of those, she's a collective consciousness/hive mind/thought entity born of the egos all Sisters, alive or dead. And even she was being slowly affected by Othinus.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

it might be PIS, i'll let someone else more experianced in the matter decide that
On the other hand, assuming no acasuality, i didn't particularly mean willpower hax (not sure if Othinus even has any) but something closer to rewriting the timeline to make more events where Arceus might willingly give it's plates to someone. She did something similar when trying to break Touma's will by recreating the universe a lot of different times to put Touma in various situations (actually, is Touma considerable as acasual due to this? i can see arguments for and against. kinda very off topic though). Although part of the reason Touma's will didn't break is because the Will of the Misaka Network somehow is acasual (despite none of the Misaka clones being acasual) saw what he was going through, and convinced him to not give up. Arceus doesn't have someone to tell it that giving up the plates is going to end up badly, but might be callous enough to not give them up. especially since part of the reason Arceus gave some plates up in the movie is because a plot relevant character saved Arceus from a case of PIS

Kk Alright. But wouldnt Othinus have to have something like conceptual manipulation to get Arceus to willignly give up its plates? Despite it being incomplete im sure Arceus's will or decisions goes above the concept of will (or Azelf) that he created himself. It could also be Arceus just deciding to kindly return the favor to Damos. He saved his life and Arceus then saves his

Im not sure really.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I doubt Arceus would willingly give up plates since he created the concept of will itself. Also people seem to be ignorinf the fact that Arceus can effortlessly one-shot Orthinus due to her being a glass cannon. Also his conceptual manipulation should counter almost all of her hax.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

1st, it's those "kindly returning the favor" moments that Othinus could create, alongside other attempts since she wouldn't know exactly what would work and what doesn't

2nd, atm i'm assuming Othinus gets first move although i dunno who's faster. It also depends on how quickly Arceus chooses to use the conceptual manipulation, or for that matter if nearly-complete is enough to use it. If Arceus doesn't/can't Othinus has dodging hax via forcing misses with probability manip.

3rd, i did misunderstand the Will bit, since i have no means to actually read the LNs so i'm going off bits and peaces i've heard here and there, so thanks for explaining. Touma i'm thinking could be argued for acasuality as a side affect of IB, assuming it's supernatural causes that rewrote the timeline. could also be argued against acasuality since if something supernaturally goes back in time but kills his parents with a simple knife or whatever, he'd still cease to exist like normal.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So lets analyze this:

Power Advantage: Arceus

Both are Low 2-C but Arceus has the edge due to being "At least Low 2-C"

Durability Advantage: Arceus

Arceus can easily tank hits from Othinus. However Othinus annot do the same since she only has Multi-Planet Level Durability.

Hax Advantage: Arceus

As stated in the Arceus vs Hades 02 thread if something is a concept then someone with conceptual manipulation should be able to counter it. Meaning his hax will counter both her Probability Manipulation and Causality Manipulation. Plus he has many other haxes to overpower her as well.

Speed Advantage: Doesn't Matter

Arceus naturally has a speed advantage to the point in which he can flat out speedblitz her into oblivion. However, speed is equalized for this fight, so speed is a non-issue.

Intellect Advantage: Arceus

Nigh-Omniscient vs Incredibly High. That's all that needs to be said.

I see Arceus winning this 10/10. He seems to have the advantage in all categories.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

tbh, i didn't see "speed equalized" or i wouldn't have mentioned it, but if it is then yeah it doesn't matter. my bad.

Statistics wise, Arceus would probably win but i'd still give Othinus a fighting chance due to us not knowing if Arceus is acasual or not, so if she can rewrite the timeline to get rid of Arceus and/or it's powers, and you can't use the ability you've just lost to regain said lost ability... so honestly i'd give it something closer to a 7/10 in Arceus's favor just because of that chance. if the moments of Arceus lacking acasuality are just PIS then i agree it's 10/10

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well he existed before the concept of time/ causality existed soooo.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not counting a PIS meteor can Arceus even die? Im pretty sure Arceus has created the concepts of Life and Death such as Xerneas and Yveltal so i dont even think Arceus can die realistically.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

tbh, it's not specified that this is a "kill or be killed" match, even if arceus can't be killed it can still be KO'd. That said, Arceus has the edge

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well I believe Standard Battle Assumptions make this a death match.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That reminds me

Cant Arceus just recreate another Creation and Lake trio for himself so that he'll gain the advantage in numbers?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

That reminds me
Cant Arceus just recreate another Creation and Lake trio for himself so that he'll gain the advantage in numbers?

Yes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

K then. Then is this kinda a stomp now?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I dunno.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

The game is primary canon and I caught Arceus in my Platinum and it now obeys my commands, I don't see why Othinus can't make a Master ball and capture it if it can't even dodge a throw from my ig character and no I don't believe in, " Universe level+ Pokemon verse. I mean every Pokemon and Trainer. " I'm sorry but Arceus is very poor when it comes to actual combat for the level he is at and use of his "conceptual manipulation" .It also get used by mere humans in all of three canons >.> I'm just giving my two cents on this since the overuse of Arceus( and wrongly so to boot) is getting unbearable but hey that just my take on it .

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well Sage you are just in denial. Arceus has had multiple Universal feats throught to pokemon universe. Look at the respect threads. Ignoring them would just be downplay. And define "wrong overuse". Stop downplaying. Can you disprove the feats? You do realize we use composite files here, and it doesn't matter since Pokemon is confirmed to be a multiverse, a multivese in which Dialga and Palkia created. Two beings created by Arceus. Arceus created all the concepts in pokemon. Those who do not believe in a universal arceus are just in denial. If you don't believe in "Universal Pokemon verse" then why comment on an Arceus thread.

We never said every Pokemon trainer is universal, name one time in which we did.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Said respect thread had this, " Universe level+ Pokemon verse. I mean every Pokemon and Trainer. " I'm sorry but I personally can't take that seriously. It has Universal feats but combat wise awful and that doesn't change the fact of primary canon. Also I'm not downplay, just asking a question. If you can give me combat feats of using conceptual manipulation for Arceus I would totally agree but from all the Arceus threads it's most IFs or Maybes on what Arceus can and can't do most of the time. Not looking for trouble just some clarification.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Said respect thread had this, " Universe level+ Pokemon verse. I mean every Pokemon and Trainer. " I'm sorry but I personally can't take that seriously. It has Universal feats but combat wise awful and that doesn't change the fact of primary canon. Also I'm not downplay, just asking a question. If you can give me combat feats of using conceptual manipulation for Arceus I would totally agree but from all the Arceus threads it's most IFs or Maybes on what Arceus can and can't do most of the time. Not looking for trouble just some clarification.

1) It created the very concepts of the pokemon multiverse. Time, Space, Antimatter, Emotion, Willpower, Knowledge etc. Proof of Conceptual Manipulation. And can easily create another set at any time. Heck, existed before concepts were a thing.

2) Combat. Curbstomped 3 highly intellegent universal beings without a scratch. Yeah sucks at combat.

3) The respect threads TheMightyRegulator made on this site says nothing of the sort. There are links to them on Arceus' file. Read ALL of those...

4) Look at the feats on his page. It tells you his feats and powers.

5) IF and MAYBES? It's called being bloodlusted. Arceus wouldn't normally result to that. But in a death match he would. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with every vs thread.

 

[Tivanenk]

I do agree that Arceus gets wanked quite a lot on here. On paper, he sounds good, and one of the strongest 2-C. In practice... let's look at all the media. The games? He's a dumb brick who can get exploited by anyone. Gets exploited by Trainers. Gets exploited in PMD. He gets exploited in the HG&SS arc of the manga by a Team Rocket member. He gets exploited in the anime. Arceus is one of the most dumbest 2-Cs and when it comes to combat, all he does is fling around energy stuff and other non-hax moves for the most part.

For instance, when has Arceus ever used Future Sight? Or Destiny Bond for that matter? When has it even used space-time attack? Hell, unlike Dialga and Palkia who actually used space and time attacks in the manga, Arceus hasn't.

Othinus wins by creating a Master Ball and catching Arceus who will be too dumb to do anything about it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Again with this Tiv?... Look if youy have problems with Arceus voice it here.. I am getting real tired of this. Apparently Arceus is a wanked character now..https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/415401

 

[Tivanenk]

I've already learnt from the last time I dealt with you. You called me out to debate, then immediately accuse me of being a wanker, and then call out mods to immediately lock the thread once you were satisfied. I'm not dealing with you again.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I've already learnt from the last time I dealt with you. You called me out to debate, then immediately accuse me of being a wanker, and then call out mods to immediately lock the thread once you were satisfied. I'm not dealing with you again.

I called you out to debate yes since you asked for it.

Immediately called you a wanker? I remember calling you a wanker after you were downplaying Arceus..Is this really about Arceus beating Hades? It isn't that serious... This is a chance to voice you concerns to ADMINS. If you don't then you'll miss your chance. I won't say a thing. I promise.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dragon i'd notify an admin about this since IIRC downgrading is against the rules (to an extent).

and seriously? If Dialga and Palkia have space-time manipulation, obviously their creator would too. Stop trying to downplay

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dragon i'd notify an admin about this since IIRC downgrading is against the rules (to an extent).
and seriously? If Dialga and Palkia have space-time manipulation, obviously their creator would too. Stop trying to downplay

Not gonna report it yet. I am giving him a chance to voice his concerns so that this can just pass over.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

well, honestly Arceus is a bit of an idiot and decently impulsive according to a good chunk of the media despite the supposed (and very likely) ability of knowing all, but Othinus wouldn't even know what a master ball is so that shuts the argument down right there.

Othinus being a bit of a glass cannon, and having to work around Arceus's immunities probably would give Arceus the time to catch on to Othinus's abilities and decide to use it's less pokemon and more godly abilities. Assuming Othinus doesn't try to simply convince Arceus to **** off, assuming it's THAT stupid (which i doubt), but that'd defeat the purpose of a clash of gods such as these.

Edit: btw, did that "what defines a pokemon type" thread get made? it's sounding a lot more appealing right about now, honestly. please link it if it has been. it could actually help future pokemon debates.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Assuming Othinus doesn't try to simply convince Arceus to **** off, assuming it's THAT stupid (which i doubt), but that'd defeat the purpose of a clash of gods such as these.

Not gonna lie. This situation is absolutely hilarious in my head.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How is Arceus an idiot?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus is easily angered. And trusts humanity to the point of naivete. That's his biggest flaw. He's highly intellegent. But like I said very naive and gullable to those he trusts.

 

[Tivanenk]

Seriously though... when has Arceus ever been shown to be smart in any canon material? He's not smart in the games, he's not smart in any of the anime, and he's not smart in Pokemon Adventures (which is the manga endorsed by Satoshi). Arceus is gullible as heck and is continuously betrayed by humans.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Othinus: Arceus go away!!!

Arceus: Okay, now be good now....

Fight over. Othinus wins.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Seriously though... when has Arceus ever been shown to be smart in any canon material? He's not smart in the games, he's not smart in any of the anime, and he's not smart in Pokemon Adventures (which is the manga endorsed by Satoshi). Arceus is gullible as heck and is continuously betrayed by humans.

Seeing as how he is able to create the concept of Knowlegde itself(Uxie) and other concepts. I think that's proof enough of his intellect.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Just want to say I only asked when Arceus used Concept manipulation in combat and never called for a downgrade >.> Why are some of us getting all serious and calling names?