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Arceus fights a Greek god (Pokemon vs Saint Seiya)
- Thread starter Artorimachi_Meteoraft
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I was requested to post here.
....Ugh. Arceus. I deliberately avoid debating this drama llama, but because I was ASKED to input, I'll try to be nice & oblige, despite being tired. (& despite that I probably seem like a total jerk by openly pointing out I'm only doing a kindness (& it being a kindness is arguable at that.) to be "nice", hypocrite that I am. Lol.)
I'm less familiar with Hades, so let's start with him. Let's look for stuff that prevents win conditions, since lack of those can -Arguably- end matches faster than most other stuff.
Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4, 6 and 8 - Gods are conceptual beings, and will still live even if you destroy their bodies and souls completely), Abstract Existence, Regeneration (Mid-Godly), Acausality,
....What type of Acausality, dangit?!
Anyway, Immortalities. You all should know Type 1 (Eternal Life), & Type 3 is Regenerative (Because Mid-Godly Regen.), & Type 4 is....
4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.
So how does Hades reincarnating into a new body or resurrecting himself work?
Type 6?
6: Parasitic: The character is able to attain a sort of immortality by abandoning bodies whenever necessary to transfer their consciousness to another body, whether they are possessing someone else or switching to a backup body.
How does Hades's Parasitic Immortality work?
& Type 8 is Reliant Immortality, which has the longest explanation.
In any case, just by skimming the profile, I'm pretty sure Hades's Type 8 is for being a Saint Seiya God, which are concepts. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Continuing onto the list of win-con impeding things:
Precognition (7th sense gives those who possess it precognitive capabilities)
Fate Manipulation (The great gods are stated to be capable of controlling fate)
Resurrection (Can ressurect his Specters at will, and 8th sense users can resurrect at will)
Death Manipulation (His presence can kill those around him), Attack Reflection (Any attack without Divine Cosmos thrown at Hades has its potency reverted to the attacker)
The type of Acausality not being specified is kind of annoying, because certain types of Acausality can just mean you can't be interacted with period.
Hades's list of Resistances is long, so I'll try to summarize it:
It includes Mind, Soul, Matter, Dream, Life, "Space-Time" Manipulation (Is that distinct from Space & Time? Does it mean both, whether individually or together?), Existence Erasure, Manipulation of Causality, Age, Regeneration Negation up to Mid-Godly & Immortality Negation (But it doesn't specify for which types of Immortality Negation he Resists??), as well as Death Manipulation & Law Manipulation.
Oh, & since I'll probably go over what Arceus has to invalidate win conditions, I should probably post what types of Immortality Negation Hades has:
Immortality negation (of Types: 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9: The Divine weapons were created with the intention to permanently kill gods. For example. Gaia created a weapon for the king of the Titans Cronos to slay Uranus. Gaia then proceeded to create weapons for all twelve of the Titans whom all gone to war with the Olympians. They consisted of gods such as Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. Athena was capable of destroying the true body and soul of Typhon. Hades had various methods to permanently kill Athena as Athena's death was needed to conquer the world of the living. The Sword of Chrysus can kill gods such as Athena, and even Saturn remarked that it could kill an ordinary god. Typhon is a biological weapon created by the union of Gaia and Uranus to end the reign of the Olympians.
Are the Divine Weapons Equipment? All I see for Hades's Standard Equipment is "Surplice Armor and Sword of Hades". Is that one? 'cause I dunno if he has a Divine Weapon otherwise.
Oh, & Immortality Type 6, & 9, respectively, are:
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.
ANYWAY, ARCEUS.
Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 and 9)
That's Immortality Types of: Eternal Life, Resilient, Regenerative, Undead, Reliant & Transcendental.
I'd hazard an uncertain guess from what I've read that Hades would have to use his Divine Weapon to negate any kinds of Immortality. Will Avatar Arceus be able to survive a Divine Weapon's Immortality Negation? Hades can negate every type Arceus has except Eternal Life (Lol, like THAT being un-negated helps here.), Resilient, & Undead?
So Arceus will still not die to natural causes, it'll be able to survive with even 1 or multiple parts of its body un-destroyed, it'll still be undead because Ghost-type, & probably technically being dead as well, pretty sure.
Arceus has Incorporeality. Hades has Non-Physical Interaction for being able to hit ghosts, being that he's a Cosmos User.
Arceus also has Acausality, & unlike Hades, its profile has the decency to SAY which types of Immortality:
Acausality (Types 1, 3 and possibly 4)
Type 1 Acausality is Time Paradox Immunity. You should know what this means.
Type 3 is:
Type 3: Temporal Permanence: Characters with this type of Acausality are incredibly difficult to kill, as other versions of themselves - from other points in time and/or from other universes - can survive the destruction of the "original" and act in their place. This also grants them immunity to changes in the past.
& Type 4, the one Arceus possibly has:
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I'd like to know what Arceus's Causality System is because operating on a different system of Causality/cause & effect can mean all kinds of things; When you're a practically nigh-Omnipotent Reality Warper with Causality Manipulation, operating on can mean the difference between stuff like "I can make things happen retroactively" to stuff like "I change the cause of you killing me to have the effect I get 10 bajillion times powerful" or such. Having a different system of what should do to you, especially if you can control it can lead to some seriously screwy & OP stuff.
So yeah. I wanna know what Avatar Arceus's Acausality System is.
Non-Physical Interaction (Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost)
Power Nullification (Can nullify virtually any attack, power and ability that falls under a Plate. Its Metal Barrier can negate any effect [within reason] period)
Power Absorption (Can take the powers of its enemies and infuse them with the Plates)
Precognition (Its Pokémon Conquest ability, Omnipotent, allows it to foresee and dodge incoming attacks)
Vector Manipulation (Justification?)
Time Manipulation (Future Sight allows the user to observe and attack the target in the future, bypassing Force fields and Precognition in the process)
Power Mimicry, Abstract Existence (Type 2) and Regeneration (Mid-High. Mid-Godly overtime. Upscaled from Marshadow, Yveltal, Cryogonal and Dark Matter. Mimicry allows to change the user's Type based on the environment)
Abstract Existence Type 2?
Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
WHICH ABSTRACTION, DANGIT?!
Black Hole Creation and Instinctive Reaction (Upscales from Gardevoir)
Upscales from Gardevoir for Instinctive Reaction?
Disease Manipulation (Upscaled from Mirage Mewtwo)
Wait, what?
Attack Reflection, Body Control (Upscaled from Zacian, Deoxys and others)
Telepathy, Water Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Magic, Ectoplasm Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Antimatter Manipulation, Sealing, Clairvoyance, Resurrection and Dimensional BFR (Upscaled from Giratina),
All that's from Giratina?
Precognition and Retrocognition (Upscaled from Calyrex)
Passive Aura, Power Nullification and Resistance Negation (Upscaled from Eternamax Eternatus, who has an aura which passively prevents the other Pokémon from using their moves and can release a shockwave which negates the current effects of the opponents' abilities, healing itself from damage and status conditions. Upscaled from Mold Breaker, which negates abilities and effects that would reduce the damage taken, reflect status effects, grant resistances and prevent the user's attacks from causing damage and many more abilities and moves), Probability Manipulation, Accuracy Amplification and Supernatural Luck (Upscales from Victini)
Resistances include:
Space-Time Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Reality Warping, Petrification, Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
What's all those from? Anyway, Madness Manipulation Type 2?
2: Mind Manipulation: Users of this type rely upon directly interacting with the minds of their victims, utilizing various forms of mental attacks to drive them insane.
Fear Inducement (Via Inner Focus)
Immunity to Absolute Zero and certain status effects (The Icicle Plate turns him into an ice type, making him immune to Sheer Cold, and is immune to paralysis, poison, burns, freezing, binding, powders, and being seeded with the Zap, Toxic, Flame, Icicle, Spooky, and Meadow plate respectively), Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiations (Completely immune to the effects of outer space)
So yeah, for the most part, that's stuff that impedes one another's win conditions. They both have a bunch of other powers I didn't even bring up.
But I don't even know if half of it matters, Avatar Arceus is very high into 2-B to Hades's 2-C, & Arceus has Precognition, more justifications for its Acausality that support it being useful Acausality.
Also, Nigh-Omniscient Intelligence, among other things....
& if Arceus is so many Multiverses above Hades, can we even be sure Hades's hax works on it?
I guess off the top of my head, the biggest concern might be Death Manipulation due to it being a passive from Hades's presence. Dunno if Arceus's Undead or Reliant Immortality or Acausality or Abstract Existence or such protect against that.
Also, I don't know of any Immortality Negation abilities in Pokemon, so Arceus may not be able to null the abilities of the Divine Weapons.
How useful Precognition & Nigh-Omniscience may be for Arceus is also questionable because I dunno if Hades has a Precognition-Immunity type Acausality, but Arceus "possibly" has it. Why, I don't know.
I'm going to wait for more input on stuff like win conditions & in character opening moves, especially if their Precog & such don't work on one another.
....Ugh. Arceus. I deliberately avoid debating this drama llama, but because I was ASKED to input, I'll try to be nice & oblige, despite being tired. (& despite that I probably seem like a total jerk by openly pointing out I'm only doing a kindness (& it being a kindness is arguable at that.) to be "nice", hypocrite that I am. Lol.)
I'm less familiar with Hades, so let's start with him. Let's look for stuff that prevents win conditions, since lack of those can -Arguably- end matches faster than most other stuff.
Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4, 6 and 8 - Gods are conceptual beings, and will still live even if you destroy their bodies and souls completely), Abstract Existence, Regeneration (Mid-Godly), Acausality,
....What type of Acausality, dangit?!
Anyway, Immortalities. You all should know Type 1 (Eternal Life), & Type 3 is Regenerative (Because Mid-Godly Regen.), & Type 4 is....
4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.
So how does Hades reincarnating into a new body or resurrecting himself work?
Type 6?
6: Parasitic: The character is able to attain a sort of immortality by abandoning bodies whenever necessary to transfer their consciousness to another body, whether they are possessing someone else or switching to a backup body.
How does Hades's Parasitic Immortality work?
& Type 8 is Reliant Immortality, which has the longest explanation.
8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.
In any case, just by skimming the profile, I'm pretty sure Hades's Type 8 is for being a Saint Seiya God, which are concepts. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Continuing onto the list of win-con impeding things:
Precognition (7th sense gives those who possess it precognitive capabilities)
Fate Manipulation (The great gods are stated to be capable of controlling fate)
Resurrection (Can ressurect his Specters at will, and 8th sense users can resurrect at will)
Death Manipulation (His presence can kill those around him), Attack Reflection (Any attack without Divine Cosmos thrown at Hades has its potency reverted to the attacker)
Aura, Perception Manipulation, Sense Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement, Life Manipulation, Statistics Reduction and Heat Manipulation (By being in the presence of a God. The six senses are rendered unusable and denied. The Gods radiate a divine aura that causes fear in the surrounding beings and forces them to obey their commands. The power that radiates from the Gods also causes the affected targets to be paralyzed. Their life force then starts to drain, and they then have their strength, speed, and durability reduced by being near a Gods Cosmo. Powering up their Cosmo causes the heat in the area around them to increase drastically, along with their attacks being imbued with intense heat),
Void Manipulation, Curse Manipulation and BFR (Those stabbed by his sword will be sent to a void that is outside the cycle of reincarnation, where they will never be able to return. Those cut by the Sword of Hades are annihilated completely in body and soul, removed from the Wheel of Samsara and sent to the World of Emptiness where time does not exist, unable to revive or reincarnate. A direct hit from Hades' sword left God Cloth Pegasus Seiya in a catatonic state without Cosmo)
The type of Acausality not being specified is kind of annoying, because certain types of Acausality can just mean you can't be interacted with period.
Hades's list of Resistances is long, so I'll try to summarize it:
It includes Mind, Soul, Matter, Dream, Life, "Space-Time" Manipulation (Is that distinct from Space & Time? Does it mean both, whether individually or together?), Existence Erasure, Manipulation of Causality, Age, Regeneration Negation up to Mid-Godly & Immortality Negation (But it doesn't specify for which types of Immortality Negation he Resists??), as well as Death Manipulation & Law Manipulation.
Oh, & since I'll probably go over what Arceus has to invalidate win conditions, I should probably post what types of Immortality Negation Hades has:
Immortality negation (of Types: 3, 4, 6, 8, and 9: The Divine weapons were created with the intention to permanently kill gods. For example. Gaia created a weapon for the king of the Titans Cronos to slay Uranus. Gaia then proceeded to create weapons for all twelve of the Titans whom all gone to war with the Olympians. They consisted of gods such as Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. Athena was capable of destroying the true body and soul of Typhon. Hades had various methods to permanently kill Athena as Athena's death was needed to conquer the world of the living. The Sword of Chrysus can kill gods such as Athena, and even Saturn remarked that it could kill an ordinary god. Typhon is a biological weapon created by the union of Gaia and Uranus to end the reign of the Olympians.
Are the Divine Weapons Equipment? All I see for Hades's Standard Equipment is "Surplice Armor and Sword of Hades". Is that one? 'cause I dunno if he has a Divine Weapon otherwise.
Oh, & Immortality Type 6, & 9, respectively, are:
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.
ANYWAY, ARCEUS.
Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 and 9)
That's Immortality Types of: Eternal Life, Resilient, Regenerative, Undead, Reliant & Transcendental.
I'd hazard an uncertain guess from what I've read that Hades would have to use his Divine Weapon to negate any kinds of Immortality. Will Avatar Arceus be able to survive a Divine Weapon's Immortality Negation? Hades can negate every type Arceus has except Eternal Life (Lol, like THAT being un-negated helps here.), Resilient, & Undead?
So Arceus will still not die to natural causes, it'll be able to survive with even 1 or multiple parts of its body un-destroyed, it'll still be undead because Ghost-type, & probably technically being dead as well, pretty sure.
Arceus has Incorporeality. Hades has Non-Physical Interaction for being able to hit ghosts, being that he's a Cosmos User.
Arceus also has Acausality, & unlike Hades, its profile has the decency to SAY which types of Immortality:
Acausality (Types 1, 3 and possibly 4)
Type 1 Acausality is Time Paradox Immunity. You should know what this means.
Type 3 is:
Type 3: Temporal Permanence: Characters with this type of Acausality are incredibly difficult to kill, as other versions of themselves - from other points in time and/or from other universes - can survive the destruction of the "original" and act in their place. This also grants them immunity to changes in the past.
& Type 4, the one Arceus possibly has:
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I'd like to know what Arceus's Causality System is because operating on a different system of Causality/cause & effect can mean all kinds of things; When you're a practically nigh-Omnipotent Reality Warper with Causality Manipulation, operating on can mean the difference between stuff like "I can make things happen retroactively" to stuff like "I change the cause of you killing me to have the effect I get 10 bajillion times powerful" or such. Having a different system of what should do to you, especially if you can control it can lead to some seriously screwy & OP stuff.
So yeah. I wanna know what Avatar Arceus's Acausality System is.
Non-Physical Interaction (Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost)
Power Nullification (Can nullify virtually any attack, power and ability that falls under a Plate. Its Metal Barrier can negate any effect [within reason] period)
Power Absorption (Can take the powers of its enemies and infuse them with the Plates)
Precognition (Its Pokémon Conquest ability, Omnipotent, allows it to foresee and dodge incoming attacks)
Vector Manipulation (Justification?)
Vector Manipulation is a subtype of applied Mathematics Manipulation. It is the power to manipulate the properties of objects described via vectors by modifying these vectors directly. A vector contains information about the magnitude and direction of things. As such the most usual applications of the power deal with the manipulation of the direction and velocity of the movement of various different things. Those could be physical objects or also energy like light, gravity, electricity or the spreading of heat. Not just the velocity, but also the amount of power those things have could be controlled using this ability. Many more applications are imaginable.
Power Mimicry, Abstract Existence (Type 2) and Regeneration (Mid-High. Mid-Godly overtime. Upscaled from Marshadow, Yveltal, Cryogonal and Dark Matter. Mimicry allows to change the user's Type based on the environment)
Abstract Existence Type 2?
Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.
WHICH ABSTRACTION, DANGIT?!
Black Hole Creation and Instinctive Reaction (Upscales from Gardevoir)
Upscales from Gardevoir for Instinctive Reaction?
Disease Manipulation (Upscaled from Mirage Mewtwo)
Wait, what?
Attack Reflection, Body Control (Upscaled from Zacian, Deoxys and others)
Telepathy, Water Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Magic, Ectoplasm Manipulation, Shadow Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Antimatter Manipulation, Sealing, Clairvoyance, Resurrection and Dimensional BFR (Upscaled from Giratina),
All that's from Giratina?
Precognition and Retrocognition (Upscaled from Calyrex)
Passive Aura, Power Nullification and Resistance Negation (Upscaled from Eternamax Eternatus, who has an aura which passively prevents the other Pokémon from using their moves and can release a shockwave which negates the current effects of the opponents' abilities, healing itself from damage and status conditions. Upscaled from Mold Breaker, which negates abilities and effects that would reduce the damage taken, reflect status effects, grant resistances and prevent the user's attacks from causing damage and many more abilities and moves), Probability Manipulation, Accuracy Amplification and Supernatural Luck (Upscales from Victini)
Resistances include:
Space-Time Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Reality Warping, Petrification, Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
What's all those from? Anyway, Madness Manipulation Type 2?
2: Mind Manipulation: Users of this type rely upon directly interacting with the minds of their victims, utilizing various forms of mental attacks to drive them insane.
Fear Inducement (Via Inner Focus)
Immunity to Absolute Zero and certain status effects (The Icicle Plate turns him into an ice type, making him immune to Sheer Cold, and is immune to paralysis, poison, burns, freezing, binding, powders, and being seeded with the Zap, Toxic, Flame, Icicle, Spooky, and Meadow plate respectively), Extreme Cold and Cosmic Radiations (Completely immune to the effects of outer space)
So yeah, for the most part, that's stuff that impedes one another's win conditions. They both have a bunch of other powers I didn't even bring up.
But I don't even know if half of it matters, Avatar Arceus is very high into 2-B to Hades's 2-C, & Arceus has Precognition, more justifications for its Acausality that support it being useful Acausality.
Also, Nigh-Omniscient Intelligence, among other things....
& if Arceus is so many Multiverses above Hades, can we even be sure Hades's hax works on it?
I guess off the top of my head, the biggest concern might be Death Manipulation due to it being a passive from Hades's presence. Dunno if Arceus's Undead or Reliant Immortality or Acausality or Abstract Existence or such protect against that.
Also, I don't know of any Immortality Negation abilities in Pokemon, so Arceus may not be able to null the abilities of the Divine Weapons.
How useful Precognition & Nigh-Omniscience may be for Arceus is also questionable because I dunno if Hades has a Precognition-Immunity type Acausality, but Arceus "possibly" has it. Why, I don't know.
I'm going to wait for more input on stuff like win conditions & in character opening moves, especially if their Precog & such don't work on one another.
Rabbit2002
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Immortal type 4 of Hades is via 8th sense. Type 6 is when Hades resurrect, he will possess to his selected host. Hades also have type 9 due to his true body exist in Hyperdimension and Elysium
Acausality (Capable of ignoring the effects of causality inflicted by the Space-Time Continuum itself)
Acausality (Capable of ignoring the effects of causality inflicted by the Space-Time Continuum itself)
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Someone else commented it,but Hades sword is/should logically be a Divine Weapon, like Athena's Staff and the Blessed Arrow of Athena.
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I vote Hades via sword, aura draining Arceus' life force and causing his stats to be reduced to 1/10th
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Eh does hades even have the range to affect Arceus?
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they are according to standard battle assumptions aren't they within melee range of each other
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Literally all of that gets negged from the Plates. Also even if the Stats reduction works, Arceus would still be >>>>>> countless 2-B, which would one shot Hades.
Anyway:
- Range isn't an issue since it's avatar, but there's still Type 9 Immortality based on True Form, which is seriously outside the range.
- Anything Hades trows to Arceus gets negged from Plates.
- Even if Arceus gets killed, it can just respawn in an universe outside Hades' range from Type 3 Acausality, and nuke Hades from there.
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Just saw that Hades gets also negged from the passive power null. Yeah, just close this.
Rabbit2002
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and unshakable one isn't active right now.
dang it. i hate it when people aren't active.
especially those with verses that have few knowledgeable members.
or the knowledgeable members are all gone from this wiki.
it just sucks
dang it. i hate it when people aren't active.
especially those with verses that have few knowledgeable members.
or the knowledgeable members are all gone from this wiki.
it just sucks
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I don't feel comfortable touching this lol.................
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Yeah it is a big stomp in favor of big Llama
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