-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Arceus/CT Hax Revising
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- 40,457
- 12,924
He's not talking about Arceus, nor is he talking about the concepts.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #43
What Cal said. This is a Dialga and Palkia ability (which would go to Arceus anyway but beside the point) for what they did via resetting the universe.
- 4,178
- 1,471
Because Cyrus with the power of Dialga or Palkia destroyed the spirit of a whole universe, and according to Cyrus the spirit is represented by the being of Knowledge, the being of Emotions and the being of Willpower.
..I should have expected as much. Uxie, "The Being of Knowledge." Azelf, "The Being of Willpower." And Mesprit, "The Being of Emotio"..."
"The Pokémon have come to protect Sinnoh? Pathetic and worthless. It takes the three of them, the three lake Pokémon that symbolize spirit, to balance either the Pokémon of time or space. But they can't maintain balance against the two. Not when both Dialga and Palkia are here. Their coming here is in vain. So much meaningless drama. Now, <player>. You've constantly interfered with my plans, but you will be forgiven. After all, there will remain no spirit for all time when I am done. All spirit will disappear. It will be ripped away... From you! From your Pokémon! From those precious to you...! It is time! My dream will be my reality!"
..I should have expected as much. Uxie, "The Being of Knowledge." Azelf, "The Being of Willpower." And Mesprit, "The Being of Emotio"..."
"The Pokémon have come to protect Sinnoh? Pathetic and worthless. It takes the three of them, the three lake Pokémon that symbolize spirit, to balance either the Pokémon of time or space. But they can't maintain balance against the two. Not when both Dialga and Palkia are here. Their coming here is in vain. So much meaningless drama. Now, <player>. You've constantly interfered with my plans, but you will be forgiven. After all, there will remain no spirit for all time when I am done. All spirit will disappear. It will be ripped away... From you! From your Pokémon! From those precious to you...! It is time! My dream will be my reality!"
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #45
I still don't understand why it wouldnt also count as soul destruction, at all.
For one, we count the LT bringing spirit into the verse as soul manipulation (and they still have this). Cyrus specifically wanted this spirit offed from everyone in the universe when resetting it. Unless someone has a good explanation for me, it makes no sense why this wouldn't include the literal spirit of people and pokemon instead of just emotion, willpower and knowledge.
For one, we count the LT bringing spirit into the verse as soul manipulation (and they still have this). Cyrus specifically wanted this spirit offed from everyone in the universe when resetting it. Unless someone has a good explanation for me, it makes no sense why this wouldn't include the literal spirit of people and pokemon instead of just emotion, willpower and knowledge.
- 10,394
- 3,345
Cyrus repeatedly, and I do mean repeatedly, strictly associates spirit with emotions and emotions alone.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #47
For one, not repeatedly. Pretty sure just in USUM.
Second, we also kinda explained why it just being emotion before makes 0 sense.
Second, we also kinda explained why it just being emotion before makes 0 sense.
- 11,444
- 1,997
@Kukui
But there's no correlation between facets of the mind (i.e. emotions and willpower) and the soul.
In addition, as Ever stated, Cyrus' motivations had to deal more with his parents' emotional neglect of him than anything. He wanted to wipe away emotions, not necessarily willpower or knowledge, since he felt they were unnecessary.
But there's no correlation between facets of the mind (i.e. emotions and willpower) and the soul.
In addition, as Ever stated, Cyrus' motivations had to deal more with his parents' emotional neglect of him than anything. He wanted to wipe away emotions, not necessarily willpower or knowledge, since he felt they were unnecessary.
- 10,394
- 3,345
He had an entire speech about it in D/P/P and it's a notable part of his backstory.
- 15,407
- 5,717
If there was no knowledge, souls or willpower then no one would be able to do anything. Cyrus just wants to wipe out emotions.
I don't care if you think it makes no sense, that's what happens.
I don't care if you think it makes no sense, that's what happens.
- 4,178
- 1,471
Cyrus in the USUM dialogue never mentions emotions directly, also:
"I can sense in you the strong desire to protect... something. You have a powerful spirit."
This is obviously willpower.
"I can sense in you the strong desire to protect... something. You have a powerful spirit."
This is obviously willpower.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #53
And what evidence is there that Cyrus just didn't want to get rid of spirit in general, including Emotion?
There's also a few flaws with assuming only 1/3rd of this would be targeted instead of the whole thing. Most notably being that Cyrus wouldnt even need Dialga or Palkia at all when he could have just taken control of or eliminated Mespirit, who's emotion incarnate.
There's also a few flaws with assuming only 1/3rd of this would be targeted instead of the whole thing. Most notably being that Cyrus wouldnt even need Dialga or Palkia at all when he could have just taken control of or eliminated Mespirit, who's emotion incarnate.
- 10,394
- 3,345
Desire is an emotion.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #55
Or he is simply remaking the universe to where no one needs to rely on spirit. Its not impossible for someone to live without a soul.Saikou The Lewd King said:
Plus there's no evidence that people even live in Cyrus's universe in USUM when, IIRC, its supposed to be himself and Dialga/Palkia.
- 15,407
- 5,717
And willpower? You can't accomplish anything without will.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #57
Nor can you do anything without emotion and here we are now discussing this yes?
If Cyrus keeps specifically regarding the spirit, made by the LT, then he is talking about the whole thing, automatically incliuding emotion.
Unless suddenly spirit means only emotion, which isn't true.
If Cyrus keeps specifically regarding the spirit, made by the LT, then he is talking about the whole thing, automatically incliuding emotion.
Unless suddenly spirit means only emotion, which isn't true.
- 4,178
- 1,471
Not necessarily, because it is this strong desire that makes the protagonist fight, in short, willpower.
In addition, Cyrus in Spear Pillar directly states that the spirit is emotion, willpower and knowledge. Also, the dialogue with Cyrus in which he complains about emotions and the human heart never mentions the term spirit:
"I know why you're here. I can sense it in you. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf, correct? You want to save them... I no longer have any need for them. I am finished with them. If your heart aches to save them, go right ahead. I couldn't care less. It will save me the trouble of disposing them."
"But, I must say... You are a remarkable specimen. Those Pokémon have nothing to do with you, do they? But still you come to rescue them out of pity? Such pitifully useless emotions... It's illogical and irrational. Pity and compassion are products of the weak and faulty human heart. You were compelled to come here by such vacuous sentimentality! I will make you regret paying heed to your heart!"
"...How wasteful... Such emotions are but mere illusions. And, like all illusions, they fade over time until death banishes them forever. That is why I have abandoned all emotions as useless as sentimentality."
"...But that doesn't matter. I doubt you will ever understand my position. That said, I recognize that you are strong and courageous to come alone. This is your reward."
"The Master Ball is the ultimate Poké Ball. It will unfailingly catch any Pokémon in the wild. But it is not anything that I require. Unlike you Trainers, I do not make Pokémon my friends or partners. Unlike other Team Galactic members, I don't use Pokémon as tools. Instead, I make the power of Pokémon my own."
"If you wish to save the Pokémon from the lakes, take the warp panel ahead. I am off to Mt. Coronet. I will ascend the mountain to its peak where destiny awaits me. It is there that I will create my new world..."
In addition, Cyrus in Spear Pillar directly states that the spirit is emotion, willpower and knowledge. Also, the dialogue with Cyrus in which he complains about emotions and the human heart never mentions the term spirit:
"I know why you're here. I can sense it in you. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf, correct? You want to save them... I no longer have any need for them. I am finished with them. If your heart aches to save them, go right ahead. I couldn't care less. It will save me the trouble of disposing them."
"But, I must say... You are a remarkable specimen. Those Pokémon have nothing to do with you, do they? But still you come to rescue them out of pity? Such pitifully useless emotions... It's illogical and irrational. Pity and compassion are products of the weak and faulty human heart. You were compelled to come here by such vacuous sentimentality! I will make you regret paying heed to your heart!"
- After sending out last Pokémon
- During battle (last Pokémon with less than half HP)
- Being defeated
- After being defeated
"...How wasteful... Such emotions are but mere illusions. And, like all illusions, they fade over time until death banishes them forever. That is why I have abandoned all emotions as useless as sentimentality."
"...But that doesn't matter. I doubt you will ever understand my position. That said, I recognize that you are strong and courageous to come alone. This is your reward."
"The Master Ball is the ultimate Poké Ball. It will unfailingly catch any Pokémon in the wild. But it is not anything that I require. Unlike you Trainers, I do not make Pokémon my friends or partners. Unlike other Team Galactic members, I don't use Pokémon as tools. Instead, I make the power of Pokémon my own."
"If you wish to save the Pokémon from the lakes, take the warp panel ahead. I am off to Mt. Coronet. I will ascend the mountain to its peak where destiny awaits me. It is there that I will create my new world..."
- 11,444
- 1,997
@NeoZex
Cyrus' entire rant (which you don't want to cite) is about emotions.
Cyrus' entire rant (which you don't want to cite) is about emotions.
| That Pokémon... That shadowy Pokémon was captured/defeated?! Your doing so means that this irrational world will remain in existence! Does that make it impossible for me to create a new world? Even if I made new Red Chains, the new world can't be made! Why?! What compels you to protect the two worlds? Is spirit, a vague and incomplete thing, so important to you?! Silence! Enough of your blathering! That's how you justify spirit as something worthwhile?! That is merely humans hoping, deluding themselves that they are happy and safe! The emotions broiling inside me... Rage, hatred, frustration... These ugly emotions arise because of my own incomplete spirit! |
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #60
Cyrus is talking about specifically himself. That doesnt mean he's talking about spirit in general.
And like I said before, If Cyrus meant the emotions of all spirit period, then all he would need to do is get rid of Mespirit. He wouldnt even need Dialga and Palkia to get rid of the whole thing vs 1/3rd of it.
And like I said before, If Cyrus meant the emotions of all spirit period, then all he would need to do is get rid of Mespirit. He wouldnt even need Dialga and Palkia to get rid of the whole thing vs 1/3rd of it.
- 10,394
- 3,345
That's not really an argument.
- 4,178
- 1,471
I don't see how exactly this affirms that the spirit is only emotions, emotions are an intrinsic part of the spirit so it is normal that if the spirit remains, the emotions will continue to exist.
I also didn't mean that line of dialogue.
I also didn't mean that line of dialogue.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #64
It kinda is when we're talking about a being whos literally emotion incarnate.
And Rep, yes but the problem with that is Cyrus is blatently talking about himself and only himself. You can't use something specifcally for one person to lump everything in general together as that. In other words, Cyrus talking about emotions making his spirit feel incomplete is one thing. Saying it applies to all spirit in the universe is a whole different ball park.
And Rep, yes but the problem with that is Cyrus is blatently talking about himself and only himself. You can't use something specifcally for one person to lump everything in general together as that. In other words, Cyrus talking about emotions making his spirit feel incomplete is one thing. Saying it applies to all spirit in the universe is a whole different ball park.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #65
This.NeoZex6399 said:
Getting rid of the entire spirit itself (in the universe) would subsiquently destroy emotion as well.
- 9,355
- 9,845
It seems this needs to be brought up again. Notice how Mesprit, the being of emotio, can't wish for spirit to exist alone.LephyrTheRevanchist said:
- 9,355
- 9,845
@Repp
"Fellow members of Team Galactic! Hear me! My name, as I appear to you today, is Cyrus. This world of ours is a crude one. In a word, it is incomplete. It has been, and always will be, a struggle to survive in this world. We humans and Pokémon are likewise incomplete. Because we are all so lacking, we fight, we maim... It is ugly. I hate the incompleteness. That we are all incomplete, I hate it with my entire body and being. The world should be complete. The world must change. Then, who will change it? Me, Cyrus. And Team Galactic. Yes, all of you. Together we pored over myths and exposed their secrets. Together we captured legendary Pokémon. And now, Team Galactic has obtained the energy to change the world! The power of dreams is within our grasp! Understand it, fellow members! My long-held dreamworld is on the verge of becoming reality. All those headed to Mt. Coronet, and those who remain here... Though our missions may differ, our hearts beat as one. Let there be glory for Team Galactic!"
~ Cyrus at the Galactic HQ, Platinum
Before battle
"...So you've come. You heard my speech, I take it. Snicker... A big lie, of course. It's true, insofar as my intention is to create a new world. But that world isn't for the likes of Team Galactic. I seek an entirely new world solely for myself. If not, it could never be the complete and perfect world. You've seen my minions of Team Galactic. You yourself must know that they are uniformly useless and incomplete."
"I know why you're here. I can sense it in you. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf, correct? You want to save them... I no longer have any need for them. I am finished with them. If your heart aches to save them, go right ahead. I couldn't care less. It will save me the trouble of disposing them."
"But, I must say... You are a remarkable specimen. Those Pokémon have nothing to do with you, do they? But still you come to rescue them out of pity? Such pitifully useless emotions... It's illogical and irrational. Pity and compassion are products of the weak and faulty human heart. You were compelled to come here by such vacuous sentimentality! I will make you regret paying heed to your heart!"
~ Cyrus to the player, Platinum
Edit:
"According to one theory, Mt. Coronet is where the Sinnoh region began. In a newly created world... A world where only time flowed and space expanded... There should have been no strife. But what became of the world? Because the human spirit is weak and incomplete, strife has spread... This world is being ruined by it... I find this state of affairs deplorable..."
~ Cyrus at Mt. Coronet, Platinum
-
And yes, he is talking about erasing the entire spirit.
"Fellow members of Team Galactic! Hear me! My name, as I appear to you today, is Cyrus. This world of ours is a crude one. In a word, it is incomplete. It has been, and always will be, a struggle to survive in this world. We humans and Pokémon are likewise incomplete. Because we are all so lacking, we fight, we maim... It is ugly. I hate the incompleteness. That we are all incomplete, I hate it with my entire body and being. The world should be complete. The world must change. Then, who will change it? Me, Cyrus. And Team Galactic. Yes, all of you. Together we pored over myths and exposed their secrets. Together we captured legendary Pokémon. And now, Team Galactic has obtained the energy to change the world! The power of dreams is within our grasp! Understand it, fellow members! My long-held dreamworld is on the verge of becoming reality. All those headed to Mt. Coronet, and those who remain here... Though our missions may differ, our hearts beat as one. Let there be glory for Team Galactic!"
~ Cyrus at the Galactic HQ, Platinum
Before battle
"...So you've come. You heard my speech, I take it. Snicker... A big lie, of course. It's true, insofar as my intention is to create a new world. But that world isn't for the likes of Team Galactic. I seek an entirely new world solely for myself. If not, it could never be the complete and perfect world. You've seen my minions of Team Galactic. You yourself must know that they are uniformly useless and incomplete."
"I know why you're here. I can sense it in you. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf, correct? You want to save them... I no longer have any need for them. I am finished with them. If your heart aches to save them, go right ahead. I couldn't care less. It will save me the trouble of disposing them."
"But, I must say... You are a remarkable specimen. Those Pokémon have nothing to do with you, do they? But still you come to rescue them out of pity? Such pitifully useless emotions... It's illogical and irrational. Pity and compassion are products of the weak and faulty human heart. You were compelled to come here by such vacuous sentimentality! I will make you regret paying heed to your heart!"
~ Cyrus to the player, Platinum
Edit:
"According to one theory, Mt. Coronet is where the Sinnoh region began. In a newly created world... A world where only time flowed and space expanded... There should have been no strife. But what became of the world? Because the human spirit is weak and incomplete, strife has spread... This world is being ruined by it... I find this state of affairs deplorable..."
~ Cyrus at Mt. Coronet, Platinum
-
And yes, he is talking about erasing the entire spirit.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #69
Or that simply means Cyrus ordered Dialga/Palkia to either spare him and off everything else or have them recreate him as someone without the need of the soul. Kinda like, well, them. Both options are very logical to conclude to.
Regardless, Lephyr's newly brought info sort of puts more leeway into erasing all spirit instead of just a part of it. Mespirit by itself blatently could not make spirit, it needed Azelf and Uxie as well, which wouldnt be happening if spirit was just emotion. As well as the quotes he posted above.
Regardless, Lephyr's newly brought info sort of puts more leeway into erasing all spirit instead of just a part of it. Mespirit by itself blatently could not make spirit, it needed Azelf and Uxie as well, which wouldnt be happening if spirit was just emotion. As well as the quotes he posted above.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #70
bumping
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #71
Bump
- 15,499
- 11,504
I'd still like two know why the Z-CRYSTALS should be a part of his standard equipment. The plates make sense but unless they are stated to be from him or he created them then I'm fine but if not I don't agree.
- 16,940
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #73
IIRC, the crystals are there because they act just like the plates do for Arceus. They change his type to match the type of the crystal, just like a type plate would if Arceus was holding one.
Similar threads
