Apples for The Engineer

[Lightbuster30]

In that case, she bashes his equipment to pieces two times, and he's forced into cqc. Again, giving AJ the advantage here. Trying to go into cqc is going to be disastrous given the lifting strength disparity (For whatever reason not listed on the profiles, it never gave her higher than Class 5 despite lifting this giant thing. Really should be calced, but a quick glance can tell you that isn't Class 5.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump.

 

[Knifeman29]

She destroys the sentry the engineer attacks her

 

[Lightbuster30]

I reiterate: Massive listing strength advantage means that ends in disaster. She's also capable of doing something called: Attack back.

 

[Knifeman29]

being able to Lift more doesn't matter when your getting shot from a range

 

[Lightbuster30]

And he's going to shoot with what exactly? His broken sentries? He's restricted to the gunslinger as his equipment last I checked. If he wasn't, then there was no point in adding an equipment restriction at all.

 

[Knifeman29]

He's restricted to the gunslinger

oh so he doesn't have any guns? still engineer isn't gonna just let her destroy his buildings. he's gonna defend his sentries until their ready.

 

[Peppersalt43]

And he's going to shoot with what exactly? His broken sentries? He's restricted to the gunslinger as his equipment last I checked. If he wasn't, then there was no point in adding an equipment restriction at all.

It's a 2v1. If her main method of attack is flinging engineer around then the sentries would have enough time to build themselves and shoot and if she's focusing on attacking the sentries, then engineer should be able to land some good hits in.

Also you seem to operating under the assumption that she'll one-shot the sentries. That's not true, they're comparable to engineer himself. They are not going down so easily

 

[Lightbuster30]

It's a 2v1.

1v1 initially. He doesn't start with the sentries already out, he has to place them. Once he does, it can potentially turn into that.

If her main method of attack is flinging engineer around then the sentries would have enough time to build themselves and shoot and if she's focusing on attacking the sentries, then engineer should be able to land some good hits in.

Incorrect. I said her method of attack would be to target the machines he put down, and then go for flinging the engineer around.

Also you seem to operating under the assumption that she'll one-shot the sentries. That's not true, they're comparable to engineer himself. They are not going down so easily

Maybe when fully built, but when in the process of putting themselves together? You know? Not at full power? Outlier or game mechanics. Would also like a source on that claim. She also has 4 seconds each.

 

[Peppersalt43]

1v1 initially. He doesn't start with the sentries already out, he has to place them. Once he does, it can potentially turn into that.

Yes and as said above, it takes no time to place one down. Technically it's still 2v1 but the other person has to charge an attack

Incorrect. I said her method of attack would be to target the machines he put down, and then go for flinging the engineer around.

Engineer can literally not attack her and it wouldn't matter if he puts a Sentry Gun down. She would have to either A: Target Engie, but risk getting shot a bunch of times until she is dead not long after, or B: Target the Sentry, in which case Engie can easily get away and build another one, or get the first blow off, or even grind her up into pieces if he just pulls a wire on his arm, which can one-shot characters who are far superior to Engie himself like Heavy.

I'm just gonna give you that. If she tries to restrain his hand, it can start spinning and if she just lifts him, Engie can at least punch her

Also wait a minute, I just checked the profiles, both are class 5 LS. They're not lifting each other that easily. I thought breaking free from a grab also takes LS?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yes and as said above, it takes no time to place one down. Technically it's still 2v1 but the other person has to charge an attack

Really doesn't matter when the distance is closeable in under a second, against something with four seconds of charge time.

Engineer can literally not attack her and it wouldn't matter if he puts a Sentry Gun down. She would have to either A: Target Engie, but risk getting shot a bunch of times

And if he puts one down, it gets smashed. I don't really care what you "give me", it doesn't really change what she's doing.

Target the Sentry, in which case Engie can easily get away and build another one,

Also getting smashed. It's not going to be hard to destroy when it's not even fully built and can be destroyed in less than a second (Based on how long it takes her to reach the thing) with her speed and her strength (I personally consider her one of the physically strongest 9-Bs due to having a strength-enhancing stone).

Point being: Smashing them will not be time-consuming with Applejack;s strength combined with her speed at these distances, and certainly not to the point where the Engineer can handily put down another one or attack her while she smashes the other. In fact, given her attacks have shown to carry force; having used her punches to "throw" things, even assuming she doesn't one-shot or damages the thing to the point of disrupting its functionality, it's getting sent flying and knocked over.

I'm just gonna give you that. If she tries to restrain his hand, it can start spinning and if she just lifts him,

Not if she restrains his hand. He has to pull a chord. Guess what's being restrained? If she didn't have both already restrained, she'll definitely do it when she sees his trying to pull the chord on it. Point being: It's gonna be hard as shit, if not impossible to reach.

Engie can at least punch her

Which ends with him getting knocked over on the ground, and she goes back to smashing the sentries. She's used punching and kicking to "throw" objects before.

Also wait a minute, I just checked the profiles, both are class 5 LS. They're not lifting each other that easily. I thought breaking free from a grab also takes LS?

Read my comments man. I just posted an objectively higher than Class 5 feat. If the profile says a character can't light themselves on fire at will when there are multiple clips of them doing exactly that then you obviously shouldn't be trusting the profile. They're guidelines at best.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Alright, small question: Where's the difference between dropping and building a sentry? Been looking it up, and the only times I've ever seen an engineer "drop" a sentry instead of building it was by picking up an already built sentry and moving it.

Also, how does he have Class 5? The best I could find was scaling to Saxton who scales to gorillas with an 816 kg feat. That's not Class 5. Maybe it's for moving his sentries? But I have no clue how much they weigh.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Really doesn't matter when the distance is closeable in under a second, against something with four seconds of charge time.

And if he puts one down, it gets smashed. I don't really care what you "give me", it doesn't;t really change what she's doing.

Also getting smashed. It's not going to be hard to destroy when it's not even fully built and can be destroyed in less than a second (Based on how long it takes her to reach the thing) with her speed and her strength (I personally consider her one of the physically strongest 9-Bs due to having a strength-enhancing stone).

No, if she restrains his hand. He has to pull a chord. Guess what's being restrained? If she didn't have both already restrained, she'll definitely do it when she sees his trying to pull the chord on it. Point being: It's gonna be hard as shit, if not impossible to reach.

Which ends with him getting knocked over on the ground, and she goes back to smashing the sentries. She's used punching and kicking to "throw" objects before.

Read my comments man. I just posted an objectively higher than Class 5 feat. If the profile says a character can't light themselves on fire at will when there are multiple clips of them doing exactly that then you obviously shouldn't be trusting the profile. They're guidelines at best.

Okay fine, you win. I give up. I'll count your vote and get everyone else to change theirs

 

[Peppersalt43]

I believe engine can take this due to him being more adjusted to deadly situations on a day to day basis as well as the gunslinger is a pretty good weapon that can even stab through people that as well as being able to build in the heat of battle

He’s also pretty combat smart he is pretty aware of his surroundings which will help him while not as combat smart as his teammates still good enough to the point where he could probably take her down

I don't know how that would work considering speed is equal, not sure what the standards are on that. Even if it wasn't, Engineer also has athletic human speed.

Engineer can literally not attack her and it wouldn't matter if he puts a Sentry Gun down. She would have to either A: Target Engie, but risk getting shot a bunch of times until she is dead not long after, or B: Target the Sentry, in which case Engie can easily get away and build another one, or get the first blow off, or even grind her up into pieces if he just pulls a wire on his arm, which can one-shot characters who are far superior to Engie himself like Heavy.

Her calc isn't nearly twice really, just greater by about 66%.

Also, while this isn't listed on his profile, Engie can probably tolerate quite a bit of pain, considering he went under the same operation as Heavy without any anesthesia, where he was cut open, and had his heart replaced.

1.5 seconds for him to completely build it himself, it takes no time to put one down and 4 seconds for it to build on its own

What videos are you referring to

Would you like to re-check the argument and consider a different vote? Please?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Uh, I think it's up to them whether or not their reasoning has been debunked.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Reworded the reply

 

[Peppersalt43]

Engineer FRA.

Engineer should take this with his weaponry
Engineer FRA

Engie FRA

Engineer FRA

engine fra

Would you like to reconsider your votes now that new arguments have arisen?

 

[Lightbuster30]

I believe engine can take this due to him being more adjusted to deadly situations on a day to day basis as well as the gunslinger is a pretty good weapon that can even stab through people that as well as being able to build in the heat of battle

He’s also pretty combat smart he is pretty aware of his surroundings which will help him while not as combat smart as his teammates still good enough to the point where he could probably take her down

Nevermind what I said, if this is the reasoning for all those fras, then I don't have to debunk anything. This isn't even giving out a win scenario, it's just another generic "more skilled and smarter" argument. Hell, one person didn't even read the prompt properly and thought he had access to his guns despite OP very clearly saying otherwise.

Bear in mind all the arguments I've been debating came up after the fras happened, so me making this point is still valid.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump again. Made an edit to my third point of comment 51.

 

[Popted2]

ok just to remember what are the wincons of both?

 

[Ailamiona]

Would you like to reconsider your votes now that new arguments have arisen?

No

 

[Peppersalt43]

No

Then please explain why your vote is still valid after reading the reasoning above. Also your FRA is based on this comment

I believe engine can take this due to him being more adjusted to deadly situations on a day to day basis as well as the gunslinger is a pretty good weapon that can even stab through people that as well as being able to build in the heat of battle

He’s also pretty combat smart he is pretty aware of his surroundings which will help him while not as combat smart as his teammates still good enough to the point where he could probably take her down

Well then there's this

Nevermind what I said, if this is the reasoning for all those fras, then I don't have to debunk anything. This isn't even giving out a win scenario, it's just another generic "more skilled and smarter" argument. Hell, one person didn't even read the prompt properly and thought he had access to his guns despite OP very clearly saying otherwise.

Bear in mind all the arguments I've been debating came up after the fras happened, so me making this point is still valid.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Honestly, I can keep bumping over and over until someone bothers to counter the troubles superior lifting strength is bringing to the table, and until someone points out the difference between dropping and building a sentry; yet again the only time I've seen a sentry "dropped" is via picking one that's already up.

Plus, letting a sentry build itself still requires a second's worth of prep time via pulling out the build tool, selecting what you need built, taking out a toolbox, and then placing the blueprint. Of all the gameplay I've seen, I've never seen him just "teleport" the blueprint onto the ground and have it build itself, it's always taken a second of prep time. So a clip demonstrating what's being talked about would be appreciated a lot. Otherwise; at these distances, the sentries never get the chance to be built, let alone have their blueprints put down.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Honestly, I can keep bumping over and over until someone bothers to counter the troubles superior lifting strength is bringing to the table, and until someone points out the difference between dropping and building a sentry; yet again the only time I've seen a sentry "dropped" is via picking one that's already up.

Plus, letting a sentry build itself still requires a second's worth of prep time via pulling out the build tool, selecting what you need built, taking out a toolbox, and then placing the blueprint. Of all the gameplay I've seen, I've never seen him just "teleport" the blueprint onto the ground and have it build itself, it's always taken a second of prep time. So a clip demonstrating what's being talked about would be appreciated a lot. Otherwise; at these distances, the sentries never get the chance to be built, let alone have their blueprints put down.

The only difference between placing and dropping is the very small period of time in which Engineer pulls out his remote or PDA. By default (And presumably in-character since in his trailer he built nothing but sentries) it is already set to build a sentry which points in front of him. So it's a marginal difference with dropping the sentry and the build time is still the same

 

[Lightbuster30]

The only difference between placing and dropping is the very small period of time in which Engineer pulls out his remote or PDA. By default (And presumably in-character since in his trailer he built nothing but sentries) it is already set to build a sentry which points in front of him.

True, but he still needs to select with it and take out a toolbox to drop the blueprint. Everything is pre-built. It just needs to be selected and put down so it can assemble itself.

So it's a marginal difference with dropping the sentry and the build time is still the same

So, then there was no point in anyone bringing it up. Time is still the same and that means Applejack can bull rush him and interrupt him before he gets the chance to set it down.

 

[Peppersalt43]

True, but he still needs to select with it and take out a toolbox to drop the blueprint. Everything is pre-built. It just needs to be selected and put down so it can assemble itself.

So, then there was no point in anyone bringing it up. Time is still the same and that means Applejack can bull rush him and interrupt him before he gets the chance to set it down.

That's nice. Also if you look at one of the comments, @Popted2 has a question that need to be answered

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't think the Engineer has much of a wincon if Applejack can rush him before he can place the blueprint.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump for the umpteenth time.