Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,545
Is the novel or the manga better? If both are good I would prefer to read the manga.
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Apotheosis: Cosmology Introduction
- Thread starter MJ2K3
- Start date
- 16
- 4
The Manhua if you don't want to read 3913 chapters of pure Chinese text and you don't mind a drawing style with many ups and downs.
The novel if you are interested in delving into the scale of power and how it works.
Although this would not be a novel I would personally recommend.
It's not particularly good and whether you like it may depend on how fond you are of cultivation works.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
- 1,545
I'm reading Infinite Mana currently, so you are propably right. Also there is a new Ergen work I also want to delve into.
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- Thread starter
- #44
You are wrong again, you try to deny something that novel clearly explain, that Boundary Wall is not a construct that Limits the Universe is only a layer of a space that impossibilite one to enter the Universe, so why are saying that the universe is limited since it has been proved that it is infinite how can endless stars and infinite space be contained in a finite universe?
And this Chaos Ancient God were wrong since it does not know about the Secrets of Primordial Chaos, the Worry Free King, the strongest Human from previous Chaos Era said that what have been deleted from Chaos was a piece of MotherWorld and was sent to the void that does not possess concept of time or space(but Worry Free King could manipulate the void and created some spaces to hold his servants that were Inner Beings showing that Inner Beings can exist in the void yet they cant exist in Chaos reenforcing that those rules)
So this means that you are denying a fact just because you cant accept, so this shows that you are arguing by personal motives and ignora facts that dont align with what you want.
When Luo Zheng bought a fish out of his Inner World it was stated that Inner Beings were superior to Luo Zheng itself (he tought that he was a secondary being, but Luo Zheng is a Superior being that naturally is not bound by any reality)
The relation betwen energies has been stated. Universe is made out of True Essence or Life Vitality and this energy is present at every part of it.
The God Domain was forged by using Chaos Energy yet the envirionment of God Domain is the same as the Universe because of the Divines Trees that absorb Chaos Energy and convert to True Essence (a lower version of energy). Beings from God Domain die when interacting with Chaos Energy just as the Stone Mouse that Died when drank a portion of Luo Zheng inner world energy. Yet beings from Luo Zheng Inner World, dont, they are the one are purely made out of Chaos.
Vizualization is just a form of manipulating energy, the difference is that True Essence requires one to think about what wants to construct while Chaos Energy create directy
Let me say how does those planes works:
Chaos Energy is the base energy that compose every single existence, since from concept till physical material.
True Essence or Life Vitality is a energy created by downgrading the Chaos Energy. Laws and Concepts are energies, since those two energies work as the same thing yet one is superior than other.
Laws relies on energy to exist, Laws from Universe are different from Laws from God Domain, because of this lower beings cant exist in higher planes. And as i showed about King Manard/Worry Free King, he was a being from the Chaos but once his Chaos Era were erased he no longer were able to exist in Chaos again even though he was stronger than Chaos Ancient God.
- Gods and Holy Beings perceive the universe as creations stemming from their own knowledge and understanding of reality.
- The universe is seen as a materialization of the knowledge and concepts held by these higher beings.
- The universe is considered to exist in a lower plane than the Gods and Holy Beings, reinforcing their superior position.
- Gods possess the ability to manipulate the universes, exercising control over their creation and even having the power to create and destroy them.
- The level of detachment these higher beings have from the universes, combined with their ability to shape and control them, echoes aspects of Reality-Fiction Transcendence.
plus
This cyclic process reinforces the idea that the higher beings have influence and control over the very rules that govern the Universe and Chaos. It further establishes the qualitative difference between the higher beings and the Universe and Chaos, aligning with the principles of Reality-Fiction Transcendence. The inability of entities from the previous era to persist in the new Round of Heavens or Chaos emphasizes the malleability and control wielded by the higher beings over the fabric of reality.
In summary, the cyclical destruction and recreation of Round of Heavens or Chaos, coupled with the restructuring of rules, supports the notion that the higher beings hold a transcendent position in relation to the chaotic fabric of their reality.
The Novel has stated a rule about level of existence, and there also a rule about existing in those realities, as King Manard could not return to the Chaos since his Era was erased from existence and new rules governs the Chaos, by this he could not return to it.
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1- Because it simply does not contain infinite stars in a literal way. It's just a way of saying it has a vast amount of stars.
Meanwhile, the statement that the universe has a limiting height, along with its SPECIFIED height is there. And that carries more weight than any flowery or rhetorical language you want to pass off as a feat.
2- . There it does not say that "They cannot survive the chaos", but that they cannot survive the alternation/cycle of destruction and imposition of new rules of the chaos. Something fundamentally different from what you say. Stop miscontextualizing.
None of this proves that chaos is timeless or proves that the fragment of god's soul is wrong. What's more, you continue to provide data to support my argument. For example, if the concept of space did not exist in Chaos, then it would not be possible to use spatial channels in the same way that it was not possible to use them in the void beyond chaos. But this is not the case, it is possible to use spatial channels because there is a space.
3- All this explanation of energy is highly unnecessary, not only because I already know it, but also because it does not prove your point.
— I have already shown that there is a quantitative difference both in the density of energy and in the matter it creates. And not only in matter or energy, but also in things like time. The time of the divine domain is only about 10 times slower than that of the universes. Again, a quantitative difference.
— The fact that the laws of the universe are less than the laws of the domain is only because they are made from a lower density energy and that's it.
4 -You are telling a half-truth. While it is true that saints and true gods create their worlds by imposing their imagination and knowledge, they have many limitations. And not only that, while destroying the inner world of a true god means crippling it, destroying the universe of a saint is directly killing it, since they and their universe are interdependent: I remind you that the process of turning a true god into a saint, roughly speaking, involves taking the inner world out of the inner world and embedding it in the god domain so that it can absorb energy and become a universe. It is also necessary for the saint to link his being to the universe, which gives him a reliant immortality, in which he can be reborn in his universe after a few months if he is killed. But this also brings the weakness that if the universe is destroyed, the saint perishes.
So they are not as transcendent with respect to their worlds as you again posit.
5- You had mentioned that the fact that secondary beings and natives of the god domain share cultivation levels does not imply the same level of power, since they are different life forms, right?
I remind you that in the arc of the land of forbidden refinamienton, Luo Xiao's friend's universe, they sent both secondary beings and divine domain native beings below the true god, in order to train.
It was never shown or even mentioned that the power level of these beings was superior just because they were higher life forms.
On the contrary, many demonstrated problems in dealing with secondary wild creatures. And Luo Zheng also judged their power by the standard of a secondary creature. In general terms they were as strong as secondary beings, but they had strange items or techniques from the god realm that allowed them to temporarily increase their power, which sometimes made them comparable to a celestial venerable or higher. But other than that, this inaccessible difference in power was never raised.
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- Thread starter
- #46
1- I brought facts that demonstrate such a thing and explain about the limit that you said existed, and yet you ignore it because for you something that limits the Universe is a fact, however when I bring explanations refuting this you say it is just a fallacy. Why what you bring is an absolute truth and what I bring is simply something empty, when both mentions coming from the novel.
2- You were right about it
3- If the difference is only quantitative, why in the novel is the level of existence of each plane described, describing that the Universe is essentially a level above the Inner World?
If you're right, then why are the Globes/Grand Worlds classified based on the quality of energy and types and not on quantity of energy, since all energy is the same thing?
and i clearly said and proved that Concepts itself are just a form of energy
4- Show a Saint who died because his Universe was destroyed, This only happened once, which was when Luo became the God of Divine Land and could manipulate everything, so much so that he destroyed both the body, soul and the Universe of a Saint and even his soul flame to never reincarnate
- The panentheism analogy helps refute the notion that immanence diminishes transcendence. In panentheism, the fact that God is within the universe does not negate the idea that God is greater than the universe. Likewise, the interdependence of gods/saints and their universes does not necessarily diminish their level of transcendence.
- While gods and saints may be linked to their universes and face consequences if the universe is destroyed, this does not inherently lower their transcendent nature. Transcendence can still exist in the act of creation, the imposition of laws, and the ability to shape the universe according to their imagination and knowledge.
- The inability of gods or saints to physically enter their own universes could be seen as a self-imposed limitation, much like the concept of God not directly intervening in the universe in certain theological beliefs. It doesn't negate their overall transcendence; it's a choice or constraint they operate within.
And the evidences contradicts the idea that gods and saints die when their universes are destroyed. Here are some examples:
- Luo Xiao's Disciple: His body was destroyed along with his universe, but he was still alive, although unable to fully use his powers.
- God who served Luo: Had his body destroyed and started living inside Luo Zheng's soul as a spirit.
- Luo Zheng's Mother: Even with only her head, she could easily kill saints.
- Killing a God: Requires destroying the body and soul.
- Killing a Saint: Requires destroying the body, universe, and soul. If any of these aspects fail, they won't die.
5-And where did I claim that they were superior in power level? I clearly stated that they were superior because they are from a higher world, as the scan I provided itself says. In the same arc, Luo almost kills beings from the God Domain, and it is stated that beings from the Universe are stronger than some from the God Domain precisely due to the creation of both. While some strive to attain divinity, others do not make the same effort. It is mentioned that beings from the Universes have better abilities than those from the God Domain.
This highlights your emphasis on the superiority of beings from a higher plane, not necessarily in terms of raw power but in their origin and the nature of their existence. The narrative in the provided scan supports the idea that the difference lies in the worlds they come from and their respective paths to power
And again, in the scan, it is mentioned that the children of Saints and Gods are not born as Gods, and they even wondered why Luo is considered a secondary being, given that he is the child of a Saint and, by the norm, should be in the God Domain.
This reinforces the narrative that even with divine parentage, the characters in this context do not automatically inherit the status or attributes of their divine parents.
Well In the end, it is up to the Mods to evaluate and classify this.
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1- You only brought 2 scenes that do not prove your point. The first one if I remember correctly, is when Mu Han, one of the true gods of Mu Haiji sent to Luo Xiao's universe, borrows from one of his companions an artifact that increases the range of his spiritual consciousness, in order to find Luo Zheng. The spiritual consciousness could not have encompassed the whole universe if it had been literally infinite, since the same with or without artifact does not work by perceiving the whole at once, but by expansion. Do you see the problem?
The second scene you brought is out of context, as it shows how the divine tree inside Luo Zheng's world broke its boundaries, and in doing so its roots went out into the chaos outside. But this is only possible because Luo Zheng's inner world, unlike that of other cultivators, is not within it but in the chaos, just like God's domain. And what's more, this scene proves my point about the limits of the wall, as it makes it clear how trespassing the limits makes you directly step out into the structure outside the universe as such. In the case of Luo Zheng, the roots of his divine tree went out into the chaos.
It is not that I believe I have an absolute truth, but if in a work they tell you and reiterate that something is "infinite", but then determine a limit, that conditions the term infinite or endless to just an analogous way of saying "very vast". And no matter how much they repeat it, it will still be conditioned to the established context. Just as a lie does not become true by repeating it many times, an analogy or metaphor does not become literal just by the mere fact of repeating it several times.
And I'm sorry to say it, but there is already a limited height statement from which to contextualize everything else. Not only is it mentioned that it is limited and an exact figure is given, but it is also mentioned what is above the supposed ""infinite starry sky"". Implying that it has an end:
Note: The height figure quoted is probably wrong.
But it doesn't matter, since I'm not arguing about what the actual height of the universe is, I'm simply arguing about it having a height.
2- Because they do not handle the levels of existence as reality-fiction in a literal way or as higher dimensional spaces. They handle them as larger and smaller worlds in terms of volume and mass/energy per unit of space. And that is true, at least, of worlds that exist within chaos. I am not arguing about what is beyond chaos, that is left open. There are simply different types of energy, whose characteristics and density allow the creation of worlds that are more solid or larger than others. And I'm not only talking about the true essence or chaos, but also about the daos... There are Daos more oriented in the creation of an internal world than others.
And in a work where the size of the inner world reflects the level of cultivation and power, the different types of energy, their density and characteristics greatly influence the scale of power:
3- There is pantheism and panentheism.
They are 2 different concepts.
Pantheism implies a simple interdependence.
And as you said, panentheism implies both immanence and transcendence.
But the saints are interdependent with their universe, that is common knowledge in the domain of god and it is something that was mentioned since the saga of the land of forbidden refinement:
Did you even read what I wrote?
I told you that the process to BECOME A SAINT involves becoming interdependent to his universe. So why do you give as an example characters that are not saints?
In any case, this is explained precisely when Luo Zheng destroys Han Qingdi's universe. The method of "Spiritual Abode" used by the saints also causes them to link their being to their universe. Because of this the destruction of the universe leads to the destruction of the dantian, the body and soul of the Saint:
4- if the supposed "existential superiority" does not give you an inherent inaccessible power with respect to entities supposedly of "Lowers planes" then it is of little importance in the categorization. And it is hardly a true reality-fiction transcendence in its absolute sense.
Even if within its fiction it is treated as such.
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- Thread starter
- #48
1 - You are wrong the scan was not from Luo Zheng inner World but from the World Tree of his Demon Night race Spirit. So this scan is about the Universe specifically in Dream Illusion Battlefield when he copied the Spear of his Demon Night Spirit.
2- The text you provided doesn't explicitly address the concept of reality-fiction transcendence between the Universe and the God Domain. However, it discusses Luo Zheng's challenge in expanding his inner world, which serves as a measure of his cultivation. This doesn't inherently refute the idea of reality-fiction transcendence but highlights a specific issue related to the expansion of the inner world.
3- When considering the concept of Memory Flames and their role in recording a creature's entire life, it adds an interesting dimension to the discussion of the Saints' panentheistic nature. The idea that Memory Flames continue to exist even after the destruction of a Saint's universe, body, and soul implies a persistent aspect of the Saint's existence.
In a panentheistic framework, where the divine is believed to be present in and beyond the universe, the continuation of Memory Flames beyond the physical and spiritual destruction aligns with the notion that there is an enduring essence or aspect of the Saint that transcends these material forms.
The Memory Flames, serving as unique proof of a living being and persisting despite the destruction of other components, could be seen as a form of divine memory that transcends the physical and spiritual realms. This aligns with the panentheistic idea that the divine is immanent in the universe and extends beyond it.
Therefore, the presence and resilience of Memory Flames provide additional support for the argument that Saints, in this fictional context, exhibit panentheistic characteristics, challenging the notion that a Saint dies definitively when their universe, body, and soul are destroyed.
2- The text you provided doesn't explicitly address the concept of reality-fiction transcendence between the Universe and the God Domain. However, it discusses Luo Zheng's challenge in expanding his inner world, which serves as a measure of his cultivation. This doesn't inherently refute the idea of reality-fiction transcendence but highlights a specific issue related to the expansion of the inner world.
3- When considering the concept of Memory Flames and their role in recording a creature's entire life, it adds an interesting dimension to the discussion of the Saints' panentheistic nature. The idea that Memory Flames continue to exist even after the destruction of a Saint's universe, body, and soul implies a persistent aspect of the Saint's existence.
In a panentheistic framework, where the divine is believed to be present in and beyond the universe, the continuation of Memory Flames beyond the physical and spiritual destruction aligns with the notion that there is an enduring essence or aspect of the Saint that transcends these material forms.
The Memory Flames, serving as unique proof of a living being and persisting despite the destruction of other components, could be seen as a form of divine memory that transcends the physical and spiritual realms. This aligns with the panentheistic idea that the divine is immanent in the universe and extends beyond it.
Therefore, the presence and resilience of Memory Flames provide additional support for the argument that Saints, in this fictional context, exhibit panentheistic characteristics, challenging the notion that a Saint dies definitively when their universe, body, and soul are destroyed.
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1- I only read the underlined part, thinking that this was the only important part:
I request the exact chapter to better evaluate the context.
IIn any case... After reading the rest of the text I skipped, I think I'm starting to remember what this scene is. Mention is being made of the 4 divine trees that exist in the god's domain and whose roots extend to the outer limits of the domain and absorb the chaos qi. Right?
This is because the spear is made from the wood of a couple of these trees.
Now, I may have been wrong about the exact context of the scene, but I still stand by my point. This does not prove that the wall of sighs does not act as a boundary, since the text implies that outside or beyond the wall of sighs there is chaos.
The fact that elements outside the universe interact with it and contribute to its processes is not proof that it is infinite. To begin with, it is normal for this to happen, because the universes are what they are because they are embedded in the domain of god, absorbing part of his energies.
The process of becoming a Saint is, as I said, to extract the inner world and unite it with God's domain:
Because the method of the "Spiritual Abode" by which sanctification takes place is about that, about dividing part of the "Host world" with the linked universes:
2- What I said about LZ and the expansion of its internal world was only to give context to the importance of the size and solidity of the world.
This is important even for the saints.
The reality-fiction transcendence thing is an irrelevant debate as you are aware and accept that being a native of the god realm and therefore a "higher life form" does not, by mere nature, grant a difference in power inaccessible to "lower life forms". Not forgetting also ALL other points, such as the fact that a quantitative difference between chaos and true essence has already been raised. A quantitative difference between the matter of the universe and that of god's domain. And a quantitative difference of only 9 to 10 times, between the time flow of god's domain and the universes:
As in the way in which time works in relation to worlds of different masses and sizes.
3- The flame of memory is not something exclusive to saints, nor is it something over which they have power at will (The only exception is if the character has some control over the land of reincarnation).
This is just a place that has the domain of the god where the memories of all its native inhabitants are recorded and stored in small floating flames. Whoever has control over this land can reincarnate with his memories intact or reincarnate others. He also has access to the memories of the inhabitants of the domain. For all practical purposes, it is like having a backup copy of your memories. It has little to do with your unnecessarily complex explanation.
I request the exact chapter to better evaluate the context.
IIn any case... After reading the rest of the text I skipped, I think I'm starting to remember what this scene is. Mention is being made of the 4 divine trees that exist in the god's domain and whose roots extend to the outer limits of the domain and absorb the chaos qi. Right?
This is because the spear is made from the wood of a couple of these trees.
Now, I may have been wrong about the exact context of the scene, but I still stand by my point. This does not prove that the wall of sighs does not act as a boundary, since the text implies that outside or beyond the wall of sighs there is chaos.
The fact that elements outside the universe interact with it and contribute to its processes is not proof that it is infinite. To begin with, it is normal for this to happen, because the universes are what they are because they are embedded in the domain of god, absorbing part of his energies.
The process of becoming a Saint is, as I said, to extract the inner world and unite it with God's domain:
Side note: The process is not so simple either, the new saint may take many, many years to consolidate his cultivation and expand his world until he can be considered a "mature" universe.
Because the method of the "Spiritual Abode" by which sanctification takes place is about that, about dividing part of the "Host world" with the linked universes:
2- What I said about LZ and the expansion of its internal world was only to give context to the importance of the size and solidity of the world.
This is important even for the saints.
The reality-fiction transcendence thing is an irrelevant debate as you are aware and accept that being a native of the god realm and therefore a "higher life form" does not, by mere nature, grant a difference in power inaccessible to "lower life forms". Not forgetting also ALL other points, such as the fact that a quantitative difference between chaos and true essence has already been raised. A quantitative difference between the matter of the universe and that of god's domain. And a quantitative difference of only 9 to 10 times, between the time flow of god's domain and the universes:
Side note: Although I would not go so far as to say that the author was based on general relativity for the cosmogony of his world, I would dare to say that, at least, he was inspired by certain general ideas of it.
As in the way in which time works in relation to worlds of different masses and sizes.
3- The flame of memory is not something exclusive to saints, nor is it something over which they have power at will (The only exception is if the character has some control over the land of reincarnation).
This is just a place that has the domain of the god where the memories of all its native inhabitants are recorded and stored in small floating flames. Whoever has control over this land can reincarnate with his memories intact or reincarnate others. He also has access to the memories of the inhabitants of the domain. For all practical purposes, it is like having a backup copy of your memories. It has little to do with your unnecessarily complex explanation.
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It took longer than I expected, but I found enough information to elucidate that the wall of sighs constitutes the limit of the universe of the saints.
First, it is necessary to explain that one can see, in an analogous way, the universe as a "living being". The sighing wall would act as the skin of it. And while it is true that the skin (Wall of Sighs) has the function of protecting the body and its interior (the universe), this does not contradict the fact that it is also a physical (spatial) barrier between the interior and the exterior:
On one occasion they cause the protagonist to drop his sword. It has a stellar mass due to the material it is made of and because of this it falls for an indefinite period of time without anything being able to stop it. It does not stop until it reaches the lower limits of the universe; the wall of sighs:
In another scene the protagonist, from within the universe, launches a cutting attack at a distance towards the sky. It travels through deep space destroying various celestial bodies until it reaches the upper limit of the universe, the wall of sighs, and causes an indentation in it. For those who are about to ascend to the domain of god this is a way to measure their power, based on how deeply they damage the wall of sighs. As I said, it is an extremely dense spatial barrier:
Finally, we have the direct statement that the universe has a limited height, along with the exact number of the same. This explicitly demonstrates that it has limits (This is the third time I have passed on this statement. Seriously speaking, this statement alone should have been enough... But well, I hope that, after having explained all the above, there are no doubts about it):
Despite having to reread many chapters it is a pity, I did not manage to find 1 or 2 extra statements. Anyway, that's what happens when you deal with a novel of more than 2000 chapters.
First, it is necessary to explain that one can see, in an analogous way, the universe as a "living being". The sighing wall would act as the skin of it. And while it is true that the skin (Wall of Sighs) has the function of protecting the body and its interior (the universe), this does not contradict the fact that it is also a physical (spatial) barrier between the interior and the exterior:
I know that this reasoning alone will not convince many, so let's continue.
On one occasion they cause the protagonist to drop his sword. It has a stellar mass due to the material it is made of and because of this it falls for an indefinite period of time without anything being able to stop it. It does not stop until it reaches the lower limits of the universe; the wall of sighs:
In another scene the protagonist, from within the universe, launches a cutting attack at a distance towards the sky. It travels through deep space destroying various celestial bodies until it reaches the upper limit of the universe, the wall of sighs, and causes an indentation in it. For those who are about to ascend to the domain of god this is a way to measure their power, based on how deeply they damage the wall of sighs. As I said, it is an extremely dense spatial barrier:
Finally, we have the direct statement that the universe has a limited height, along with the exact number of the same. This explicitly demonstrates that it has limits (This is the third time I have passed on this statement. Seriously speaking, this statement alone should have been enough... But well, I hope that, after having explained all the above, there are no doubts about it):
Despite having to reread many chapters it is a pity, I did not manage to find 1 or 2 extra statements. Anyway, that's what happens when you deal with a novel of more than 2000 chapters.
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- Thread starter
- #51
1- the chapter is: Chapter 1684 Supreme Chaotic Weapon
While the text emphasizes the time required for the embryonic form to develop into a mature universe, it doesn't directly address the concept of the universe's infinity or finiteness. The focus is more on the duration and effort involved in the construction process rather than making a statement about the ultimate nature or extent of the universe.
While this description provides insight into the mechanics of the Spiritual Abode and its impact on the linked entities, it doesn't directly address the question of whether the universe is infinite. The focus is on the method of sanctification and the relationship between the inner world, Spiritual Abode, and the cultivation progress of the connected beings.
2-
The argument presented, asserting that the size and solidity of the world are crucial, and that the quantitative differences in time, matter, and essence have been acknowledged, can be challenged and refuted. The idea that reality-fiction transcendence is irrelevant due to a lack of inherent power difference between native beings of the god realm and lower life forms can also be countered.
3.
The provided text doesn't necessarily refute the argument about Memory Flames supporting the panentheistic nature of Saints. The text emphasizes the functional aspect of Memory Flames as a mechanism within the land of reincarnation, controlled by whoever has dominion over it. It focuses on the practical ability to reincarnate with memories intact.
While the universe can be destroyed, the essence or memory of the Holy Being persists in the Memory Flame, allowing for its resurrection or return. Therefore, the concept of the Memory Flame can be used as justification for the continuity of the existence of Holy Beings beyond the physical destruction of their universes, implying a form of transcendence in relation to the usual cycle of life and death within the universe.
1- The provided text does not explicitly refute the idea of the universe being infinite. It describes the process of a saint constructing a universe within God's Domain, showcasing the considerable time and effort involved in building and evolving an embryonic universe.
While the text emphasizes the time required for the embryonic form to develop into a mature universe, it doesn't directly address the concept of the universe's infinity or finiteness. The focus is more on the duration and effort involved in the construction process rather than making a statement about the ultimate nature or extent of the universe.
1.2-The mentioned text explains the process of setting up a Spiritual Abode for sanctification. In this context, establishing a Spiritual Abode involves splitting a part of Luo Zheng's inner world and linking it with the Evil God's existence. This connection allows the Evil God to advance in cultivation and potentially reach the state of a true God of Perfection.
While this description provides insight into the mechanics of the Spiritual Abode and its impact on the linked entities, it doesn't directly address the question of whether the universe is infinite. The focus is on the method of sanctification and the relationship between the inner world, Spiritual Abode, and the cultivation progress of the connected beings.
2-
2- What I said about LZ and the expansion of its internal world was only to give context to the importance of the size and solidity of the world.
This is important even for the saints.
The reality-fiction transcendence thing is an irrelevant debate as you are aware and accept that being a native of the god realm and therefore a "higher life form" does not, by mere nature, grant a difference in power inaccessible to "lower life forms". Not forgetting also ALL other points, such as the fact that a quantitative difference between chaos and true essence has already been raised. A quantitative difference between the matter of the universe and that of god's domain. And a quantitative difference of only 9 to 10 times, between the time flow of god's domain and the universes:
Side note: Although I would not go so far as to say that the author was based on general relativity for the cosmogony of his world, I would dare to say that, at least, he was inspired by certain general ideas of it.
As in the way in which time works in relation to worlds of different masses and sizes.
The argument presented, asserting that the size and solidity of the world are crucial, and that the quantitative differences in time, matter, and essence have been acknowledged, can be challenged and refuted. The idea that reality-fiction transcendence is irrelevant due to a lack of inherent power difference between native beings of the god realm and lower life forms can also be countered.
- It's not strictly necessary for a being with Reality-Fiction Transcendence to, by mere nature, grant a difference in power inaccessible to "lower life forms." The key aspect is the qualitative superiority and the perception of the world as fiction. The qualifiers provided offer a framework for assessing whether a character qualifies for Reality-Fiction Transcendence.
- Reality-Fiction Transcendence, as described in the Reality-Fiction Transcendence, is not strictly tied to a requirement of granting a difference in power that is inaccessible to "lower life forms." The emphasis of Reality-Fiction Transcendence lies in the qualitative superiority of a being that perceives a world as fiction, considering it less real than their own existence. This qualitative superiority is the key aspect, and it doesn't necessarily mandate a specific power difference.
- The text mentions that a character with Reality-Fiction Transcendence would be treated as completely superior to the cosmology they transcend, and characters limited to that cosmology. The nature of this superiority is more about the character's status, awareness, and relationship to the fictional world rather than a prescribed power differential. It's about existing on a higher plane of reality or consciousness.
- However, the text does mention that a character qualifying for Reality-Fiction Transcendence would usually scale to one level of infinity higher than the totality of the cosmology they transcend. This scaling is presented as an example and might not be a strict requirement for all instances of Reality-Fiction Transcendence.
3.
The provided text doesn't necessarily refute the argument about Memory Flames supporting the panentheistic nature of Saints. The text emphasizes the functional aspect of Memory Flames as a mechanism within the land of reincarnation, controlled by whoever has dominion over it. It focuses on the practical ability to reincarnate with memories intact.
While the universe can be destroyed, the essence or memory of the Holy Being persists in the Memory Flame, allowing for its resurrection or return. Therefore, the concept of the Memory Flame can be used as justification for the continuity of the existence of Holy Beings beyond the physical destruction of their universes, implying a form of transcendence in relation to the usual cycle of life and death within the universe.
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This will be the last time discussing this:
Based on the information regarding mentions of the Sighing Wall, or Wall of Sighs, it indicates that this spatial barrier does not restrict the physical size of the universe in a restrictive manner. Although there is a description of the limited height of the universe, ranging from the lowest point to the top where the dome of the Great Experience is located, the existence of spatial channels and the ability to traverse the Wall of Sighs suggest that the universe is not strictly limited in its physical size by the barrier.
The spatial channels indicate that there are means to penetrate or bypass the Sighing Wall, suggesting that it is not an impenetrable physical border that defines the limits of the universe. Instead, it seems to be a barrier that regulates access and entry into different parts of the universe.
Therefore, while there is a description of a barrier, such as the Wall of Sighs, and a limitation in the height of the universe, the presence of spatial channels that traverse this barrier suggests that the universe can be explored beyond these apparent limitations. The Wall of Sighs is a feature of the universe that regulates movement and access rather than a physical border restricting its absolute size.
Adding:
The fact that Luo Zheng felt as if he had traversed an infinite/endless path while passing through the Sighing Wall of the Universe towards the God Domain or Divine Land suggests that the universe is not strictly finite in its extent. If the universe were truly finite, it would not be expected for someone to experience a sensation of traversing an infinite path.
The sensation of traversing an infinite path implies that there was no perceptible or final limit to the space traveled. If the universe were finite, it would be more reasonable to expect a sensation of arriving at a final point or a clear border when crossing the Sighing Wall.
Thus, Luo Zheng's described experience suggests that the universe may have characteristics that transcend traditional physical limitations, indicating an expansive or limitless nature. This supports the idea that the Sighing Wall is not there to impose an absolute limit on the size of the universe but rather to regulate and control access between different regions or domains, such as the God Domain.
and Finally
This passage underscores the idea that the universe is not finite, as the Sighing Wall possesses a spatial channel that connects two universes. The existence of such a passageway challenges the notion of a confined and limited universe, showcasing that there are means to traverse and link different cosmic domains. The very act of opening a passageway between two universes through the Sighing Wall implies a vast and interconnected cosmological space, further emphasizing the expansive nature of the universe beyond the confines of any singular domain.
Remember that spatial channels serve to connect two points in space or points in different spaces.
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BRO WTF
I have shown you several statements that make explicit the limits of the universe. One where they directly tell you that it has a limited height. And another where they textually tell you that the wall of sighs is the boundary of the universe.
And yet you continue to insist that this is false, and that the universe is infinite.
1:
And once again, presenting scenes out of context and misrepresented.
In the scene you posted, that doesn't happen. They are not building a space channel in the Wall of Sighs to "go from one point to another in the same universe". On the contrary, they are going to the northern boundary of the universe, to the Wall of Sighs there, so that Luo Xiao's disciple, Xing Wei, can create a channel that will allow Luo Zheng to leave the universe, or what is the same. The channel is then used to enter the realm of the gods:
Shortly after the scene you showed occurs:
1.1:
One thing I find curious to point out is that in the scene, as he exits the passageway, he falls crashing to the ground. It is mentioned that such an impact in the universe would have created a crater of considerable size. But in God's Domain the force of that impact only created a small hole.
This, again, demonstrates the quantitative difference between God's Domain and the universe:
2- Earlier you mentioned that the fact that secondary life forms are equal to and stronger than some higher life forms, being born in God's domain, does not negate the transcendence of reality fiction. When in the parameters of this Wiki it is specified that, in fact, the fact that they are shown to be equally strong serves to contradict this premise. Quoting a section of the "Reality-Fiction" segment you provided:
vsbattles.fandom.com
I have shown you several statements that make explicit the limits of the universe. One where they directly tell you that it has a limited height. And another where they textually tell you that the wall of sighs is the boundary of the universe.
And yet you continue to insist that this is false, and that the universe is infinite.
1:
I have never said that the wall of sighs is impenetrable. It can be broken through with spatial passages that make use of the space principles of the god domain. As well as it can be broken through with the necessary brute force. But the fact that it can be broken through in various ways does not exclude the fact that it is a limit. The wall of sighs is a border that delimits the finite universe created by the saint. Everything that exists beyond it is not part of that universe (and that includes things like God's Domain, the universes of other saints or the world of chaos).
And once again, presenting scenes out of context and misrepresented.
In the scene you posted, that doesn't happen. They are not building a space channel in the Wall of Sighs to "go from one point to another in the same universe". On the contrary, they are going to the northern boundary of the universe, to the Wall of Sighs there, so that Luo Xiao's disciple, Xing Wei, can create a channel that will allow Luo Zheng to leave the universe, or what is the same. The channel is then used to enter the realm of the gods:
Side note: The fact that "the northernmost part of the universe" is mentioned implies a limit in itself. That the wall of sighs is there is no coincidence either.
Shortly after the scene you showed occurs:
1.1:
False, the claim of feeling that he has been inside the passage for a long time occurs after he exits the wall of sighs. He came out, into God's Dominion, as soon as he set foot inside the passage:
To this I would like to add that the reason Luo Zheng felt that he spent so much time in the passageway is because the passageway not only took him to the outer vicinity of the universe, but also connected him to a remote place in God's Domain. Considering that God's Domain is many times larger than the universe, Luo Zheng just experienced the longest journey of his life so far. The reason he was sent to a remote place is because his mission was to enter God's Domain as an infiltrator and a remote place was a good place to enter from.
One thing I find curious to point out is that in the scene, as he exits the passageway, he falls crashing to the ground. It is mentioned that such an impact in the universe would have created a crater of considerable size. But in God's Domain the force of that impact only created a small hole.
This, again, demonstrates the quantitative difference between God's Domain and the universe:
2- Earlier you mentioned that the fact that secondary life forms are equal to and stronger than some higher life forms, being born in God's domain, does not negate the transcendence of reality fiction. When in the parameters of this Wiki it is specified that, in fact, the fact that they are shown to be equally strong serves to contradict this premise. Quoting a section of the "Reality-Fiction" segment you provided:
Reality-Fiction Transcendence
It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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1- I did not say that what you brought was false, I just brought arguments that support the fact that the Universe is infinite. What you brought is not something absolute, because I clearly brought proof of this, but you insist on saying that it is limited. I showed that such a "limit" acts as a filtering barrier that can be crossed.
It is funny that when Ming Wei sealed the Wall of Sigh, it made it impossible for the Outers to invade the Universe through the Great Teleportation. A simple logic: Great Teleportation consists of connecting two points in space or two points of different spaces, that is, it shortens the distance from one point to another, something basic about wormholes. If the Universe were finite, why did they not simply fly? Why did they need to use a space channel?
If you want to insist on this, I can bring a scan that the Supreme's theurgy that consists of ignoring space and reaching the target regardless of distance, being able to cross an infinite space. I ask you why there is a theurgy that crosses the infinite to the target (Heavenly Destiny). Why would there be such infinities in a finite universe?
The God who fought against Luo simply covered the entire universe with his soul and found the existence of infinite space in it?
Or is all of this that is in the novel wrong and the point you brought is right?
2-Based on the provided description, where beings from the Universe (inferior reality) attacked beings from the God Domain (superior reality), but this occurred in a special world that allowed interaction between both realities, we can assess the following:
Attack in a special world: The fact that the confrontation took place in a special world indicates that there is a specific condition allowing interaction between the realities. This suggests that, under normal circumstances, direct interaction might not be possible.
Special permission for interaction: The use of a special world as the stage for the confrontation indicates that there are specific conditions or rules allowing beings from different realities to interact. This can be interpreted as an exception to the general concept of transcendence, where direct interaction would not be common.
Based on these considerations, despite the attack between realities, it occurred under exceptional circumstances and with specific permission for interaction. Therefore, this scenario may not entirely contradict Reality-Fiction Transcendence, especially if the special conditions for interaction are crucial to understanding the confrontation.
It is funny that when Ming Wei sealed the Wall of Sigh, it made it impossible for the Outers to invade the Universe through the Great Teleportation. A simple logic: Great Teleportation consists of connecting two points in space or two points of different spaces, that is, it shortens the distance from one point to another, something basic about wormholes. If the Universe were finite, why did they not simply fly? Why did they need to use a space channel?
If you want to insist on this, I can bring a scan that the Supreme's theurgy that consists of ignoring space and reaching the target regardless of distance, being able to cross an infinite space. I ask you why there is a theurgy that crosses the infinite to the target (Heavenly Destiny). Why would there be such infinities in a finite universe?
The God who fought against Luo simply covered the entire universe with his soul and found the existence of infinite space in it?
Or is all of this that is in the novel wrong and the point you brought is right?
2-Based on the provided description, where beings from the Universe (inferior reality) attacked beings from the God Domain (superior reality), but this occurred in a special world that allowed interaction between both realities, we can assess the following:
Attack in a special world: The fact that the confrontation took place in a special world indicates that there is a specific condition allowing interaction between the realities. This suggests that, under normal circumstances, direct interaction might not be possible.
Special permission for interaction: The use of a special world as the stage for the confrontation indicates that there are specific conditions or rules allowing beings from different realities to interact. This can be interpreted as an exception to the general concept of transcendence, where direct interaction would not be common.
Based on these considerations, despite the attack between realities, it occurred under exceptional circumstances and with specific permission for interaction. Therefore, this scenario may not entirely contradict Reality-Fiction Transcendence, especially if the special conditions for interaction are crucial to understanding the confrontation.
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1- Your arguments do not seek to contradict me, but the novel itself. The notion of a literally infinite universe, at the same time establishing that it has
extreme north, boundaries and even a limited height, simply does not make sense. However, a rather simple and solid way to resolve this apparent nonsense is to take terms such as "infinite" or "endless" as a mere recurrent expression to underline the vastness of the cosmos which, although finite, is very enormous.
And this is not impossible or stupid; it must be understood that words like "infinite" or "endless" and various similar concepts can be used as mere expressions to convey that something is very large or numerous. This can be verified in most dictionaries. The meaning depends entirely on the context, and the context is established through other statements and events.
Haven't you read other novels? Phrases like "The bright endless ocean stretches out on the horizon" when describing some land sea are not uncommon. Do statements like that really need to occur in a mundane context for you to be able to discern them as mere rhetoric?
1.1- I don't remember Ming Wei doing that, could you specify the chapter?
The one I remember doing something similar was Xing Wei, who blocked the spatial channel connecting Luo Xiao's universe with Mu Haiji's by means of a stellar technique, thus preventing reinforcements from the invaders from arriving.
If you mean that, I remind you that in the universal wars most of the forces are made up of secondary beings, they cannot simply travel from one universe to another by flying because the space that separates the universes is that of God's Domain. The universes are like spheres which are literally embedded in the ceiling of the Domain.
1.2- You mean the Celestial Venerable One who shot arrows that could ignore space?
Well, obviating what I explained above, in this particular case one could also appeal that the very explanation of Celestial Destiny implies finite but enormous distances since its ability was described as "the ability to be able to traverse infinite distances and to be able to hit something on the other side of the universe".
An infinite universe, in its most absolute meaning, has no "other side", for that indicates an extreme. Obviously this implication alone would be too debatable, but since there is already a context supporting that the universe has limits, then it has a basis.
And as for the rest... It's more of the same.
I am not questioning the novel. I am aware of most of your mentions of "infinity".
However, what I think is the problem, and what I question, is your way of contextualizing those mentions. Your reading comprehension.
Frankly, this discussion is pointless. If for you the repeated statements about a boundary or limit of the universe, which has been shown to be accessible by displacement, are not reliable proof that it is not literally infinite, then nothing will be.
If we do not move on from this point, which I would consider "basic", we will probably not do any better with the other, more complex aspects of the work that we are discussing or those of which I have not even mentioned anything yet. So I conclude this discussion here.
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