AP> HAX in dragon ball

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Verse equalization wouldn’t give you Ki.
If you have a similar Ki-like ability, it would still interact with Ki but it would not gain all of the strengths and weaknesses of Ki.

Verse equalization will make any aspects from the two verses equal so abilities that are specific to that power would work on the other verse in matches. Including ki

 

[00potato]

Yeah but it won’t give you resistance.
It just lets them interact.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok but what if a character is weaker than said DB character?

They get erased like how Beerus erased Zamasu. Hax in DB works, but only on weaker character with less ki

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah but it won’t give you resistance.
It just lets them interact.

Why not? If they have ki too they should get all aspects of it via verse equalization. Like imagine Goku fighting Naruto. Goku's ki and Naruto's Chakra would be equalized so their respective abilities would work on each other

 

[00potato]

They would not get Ki,
It just lets Ki interact with other similar systems.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Jesus Almighty.

This argument pops its head every two ******* months.

And it's just as worthless as it always been.


There are so many examples of hax working on stronger characters in Dragon Ball. Someone resisting hax isn't a weakness of the hax, nor does it have anything to do with their Ki - it's because that person has shown to resist said hax.

And the only cases where this isn't a thing are when they are notably stated outright - like how Shenron can't make wishes for things beyond its creator's power, that would be a weakness.

But Vegeta retaking his mind from Babidi's control is a resistance feat, for instance.


Just because a character is stronger than another, doesn't mean their strength is the reason they resist hax.

Correlation =/= Causation

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Regardless, this will never ever be accepted for Dragon Ball, the idea is laughable and there is so much counter evidence anyway, hax has worked on stronger characters many times.

Aside from Ginyu's body switch, can you show scans for any other examples it happened? Because hakai clearly doesn't work on stronger characters (as shown with Toppo's hakai and the U9 hakai ball being resisted by Frieza), and Hit's time skip and other temporal abilities are consistently resisted by stronger character (Goku, in two different occasions, and Jiren)

 

[Purgy]

Really? Show scans and not gonna trying to debate with you btw just want scans

Scans of what? The times hax worked on stronger characters?

1. Buu turning Vegito into Candy
2. Buu absorbing Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks, both far stronger than him
3. Babidi mind haxing Dabura and technically Vegeta, albeit Vegeta resisted with willpower/pride, not "ki amount" or strength.
4. Guldo time stopping Gohan, Krillin and Vegeta, all three were far stronger than him
5. Ginyu body swapping Goku and Tagoma, Tagoma might as well be infinitely stronger than Frog Ginyu
6. Mafuba working on like 4 or 5 characters far stronger than the user
7. Dabura's spit being implied to work on Future Trunks who is stronger than Dabura

So many more that I'm too lazy to include.

Regardless, I stand by my assertion that this thread is ridiculous and there really needs to be a discussion rule banning this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Even if these examples work, there are still the hakai technique and Hit's Time abilities that never worked on stronger characters

 

[00potato]

Those would be considered resistances or a weakness of the hax.

 

[Purgy]

Perhaps those are just weaknesses of the abilities?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I would make the argument that Hakai has shown to not work on a weaker character.

Goku during that moment when Frieza threw Sidra's Energy Ball of Destruction at him, was caught off guard in his base form - and didn't instantly die, for one.

And two, despite Goku trying to power up to gain enough power to compress the energy of the attack like Frieza did in his Golden form, he couldn't muster up the strength to do so while being attacked by the Hakai attack simultaneously.

Even though, if rasing one's Ki meant greater resistance to Hakai, then Goku trying to power up should have made the effects of the Hakai energy weaker and weaker until it wouldn't have affected him at all, making him easily able to transform and use his energy to compress the energy around him back into a small ball, as Frieza did.

But it didn't, the effects of Hakai, despite him raising up his Ki, were too much for him to deal with.


But whatever, if you want to consider it a weakness of the ability, then do so. But don't act like ALL hax in DB is Ki-based when that is bull shit.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Fine, but the weakness of the hax thing should apply to hakai and to Hit's time abilities, since Hit's abilities were clearly overpowered by raw strength

 

[Warren_Valion]

I believe there are people who are willing to contest that belief, so you might want to wait around for their responses.

I don't care enough though to do it myself.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm absolutely against hax resistance in Dragon Ball somehow making the hax weaker in another verse. Vegeta for instance broke out of Absolute Zero and you're not telling me that AZ in DB is somehow weaker than regular AZ, that physically doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

h- he did?

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I'm absolutely against hax resistance in Dragon Ball somehow making the hax weaker in another verse. Vegeta for instance broke out of Absolute Zero and you're not telling me that AZ in DB is somehow weaker than regular AZ, that physically doesn't even make any sense.

Agreed.
And the case of jiren who TRANSCENDED time with sheer strength......not because he was stronger then hit.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Is it so absurd to believe that in one verse your gainz protect you from punie babee hax? if you took it 80% serious it only add few resists of mostly baseline except Shenron's to top tiers

 

[HST_Master]

The Hit argument falls apart when Jiren initially wasn't even resisting Hit's Time Skip. He was just predicting where he'd be like Goku was at 1st. And Warren already pointed out the flaw in the Hakai one.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I'm absolutely against hax resistance in Dragon Ball somehow making the hax weaker in another verse. Vegeta for instance broke out of Absolute Zero and you're not telling me that AZ in DB is somehow weaker than regular AZ, that physically doesn't even make any sense.

Agreed.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm absolutely against hax resistance in Dragon Ball somehow making the hax weaker in another verse. Vegeta for instance broke out of Absolute Zero and you're not telling me that AZ in DB is somehow weaker than regular AZ, that physically doesn't even make any sense.

Also to add onto this for verses that have a similar system to ki: They wouldn't get abilities or resistances for having the equivalent of ki in their verse, that isn't what verse equalization is supposed to do. For instance if there were a Ben 10 fight against Dragon Ball where the source for magic (mana, which is also life-force in Ben 10) = ki per verse equalization, you'd essentially give Goku the ability to do spells if you were to use the aforementioned logic, which would impact how he fights and make zero sense (since there is a clear distinction between magic and mana in Dragon Ball). Thus only the verse that gets more abilities or resistances of the equalized power source gets the advantage, in this case one of Ben's aliens Feedback would be able to absorb both the ki and magic of a magic-user in Dragon Ball (for instance Piccolo with his demon magic) but Piccolo would have ki resistances that a mana-user such as Gwen wouldn't have, otherwise a lot of illogical situations would occur.

 

[DTG499]

Saying the hax not working on physically stronger people is a weakness of the hax is a very self defeating idea.

Mister Myxlpyk’s hax as never been shown to work on people physically stronger than him so therefore his hax should have that weakness too.
As well as the majority of people with hax on this wiki.

 

[00potato]

There is a difference between “hasn’t been shown.” And “shown not to.”
Plenty of hax lacks reasons to be effected by the power of the opponent, some types might but that is a case by case basis that would likely need to be explained in-debate. So why would that be an issue?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Some haxes such as Hit's time skip were shown to be overpowered by simply powering up, such as what Jiren did when Hit trapped him, or when Goku broke his pocket dimension.

Hakai is also like that, since Toppo's hakai aura disintigrates attacks but beyond a certain level it can no longer do it, as shown with SSGSSE Vegeta's final explosion

 

[Greenshifter]

I think I have a fix for that tho. Why don’t we just scale people’s resistances above or equal to the resistances of people they are stronger than or equal to in DB? For instance Vegeta Royal Blue is stronger than Super Saiyan Kaioken X10 Goku so he gets a time stop resistance and TOP Blue Goku = TOP Blue Vegeta so Goku gets Vegeta’s AZ resistance. I doubt there are as much contradictions left now.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Gilad yes but that powering up is increasing their ki level so it isn’t just brute strength.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Technically yes, but increasing strength meaning also increasing ki regardless if you can actually use ki attacks or not

 

[Greenshifter]

Could you elaborate?

 

[DTG499]

There is a difference between “hasn’t been shown.” And “shown not to.”
Plenty of hax lacks reasons to be effected by the power of the opponent, some types might but that is a case by case basis that would likely need to be explained in-debate. So why would that be an issue?

Most series treat hax resistance as a showcase of how much “stronger” that person is. We as a wiki just log it in as a resistance.

 

[00potato]

In those specific series, if it is treated as a mechanic, then sure.
If it isn’t, or is based on vauge or one off statements, no.
Since you aren’t showing any evidence, I can’t give you the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[DTG499]

In those specific series, if it is treated as a mechanic, then sure.
If it isn’t, or is based on vauge or one off statements, no.
Since you aren’t showing any evidence, I can’t give you the benefit of the doubt here.

We I since literally showing more than 70% of the wiki’s logs how they treat hax to be a improbable task why don’t you show me what you think is an explicit showcase of “I am stronger but your ability still works on me”

 

[00potato]

You haven’t shown anything though?
No really where have you shown anything?

 

[DTG499]

DC, Marvel, Bleach, Naruto, saint seyia etc. This wiki is the main contributor tot he idea of bypassing durability(with very good reason)most works of fiction don’t take that into account. And treat overpowering reality warping as an AP feat.

 

[00potato]

I still see only claims, no evidence that it’s treated that way. Even if I were to believe you on that, it wouldn’t account for the fact that no logical or consistent basis exists for this, so we can’t add an artificial restriction like this. It isn’t like their is an inherent reason for mind magic to not work on people stronger then you or whatever.

 

[DTG499]

I mean it would be a lot easier for you to show me something the proves your claim

 

[00potato]

You are the one making claims here though? Why am I the one providing the evidence here?

 

[DTG499]

You do realize I would literally catalog most of the wiki to prove my claim where all you have to do is show me a couple.

 

[00potato]

Your the one making claims here, I don’t have to prove the negative, (I already explained the lack of consistent basis.) you need to prove the positive.

 

[DTG499]

The difference between a negative claim and a positive claim is 100% subjective. Bring forth your evidence.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Following this thread lol

Just hearing both sides out all the way before making an argument for either side.