AP> HAX in dragon ball

[RinneItachi]

Not reading more than the OP before making this btw.

It could be argued that it would simply be a weakness of the hax, but that's also not a full proof argument, as it's always more logical to assume something as a resistance before assuming it as a weakness. It would only apply to Dragon Ball. And that's not how hax would usually work, no.

I made a thread about this pre-forum move that probably got lost during the transition, because I can't find it. It almost hit the original 500 message capacity and was my second or third most active thread so I'm a bit sad. Anyways, onto the topic. If I tried to mention everything from that thread, this message would be massive, so I'll just do a semi-TL;DR of that stuff and my current thoughts at the end, because I have a different view on it now.

Basically, I was arguing in favor of it, as certain resistances simply do not make sense when applied to a specific character. For example, Vegito has resistance to transmutation for still being sentient and powerful after being turned into literal candy. But, Vegito is a combination of Goku and Vegeta. They can't resist it, but he can. Is Vegito, for no logical reason, supposed to just get a resistance, even though he literally has the specific, combined abilities of Goku and Vegeta, with no additional powers beyond purely Ki based techniques? The possible reason is just that Vegito is supposed to be so powerful, that being turned into candy literally does not effect him beyond the transmutation itself, and I highly doubt someone like UI Goku or Beerus would become non-living candy if they were hit by the Candy Beam. Of course, the possibility that it's a weakness also exists, but as I said at the top, it's still not full proof.

Then you have one of the more blatant issues. Hakai. GoD Toppo is apparently able to stomp Jiren because Jiren has never actually resisted EE in canon, even though it is completely absurd to even think that GoD Toppo could ever defeat Jiren.

Of course, one of the better points to support these is the fact that characters scale to other characters creating rifts between dimensions, due to enhancing their voices with strong Ki, which means that Dragon Ball characters can definitely gain at least some unique abilities simply via becoming strong enough to do so.

Honestly, nowadays, I don't think that characters should get definitive resistances to hax via scaling, as it's too vague and theoretical. Aside from maybe Jiren with EE, that argument can really be resolved via common sense, and it's pretty similar to someone saying Goku can't planet bust because he hasn't done it, not to mention Jiren is literally stated as superior to GoD's but apparently could just get erased by them.

Anyways, I do think that some cases could at least warrant a "possibly" or "likely", which are surprisingly underused on pages. Like, it wouldn't be completely out the window to at least give Goku and Vegeta "possibly" resistance to transmutation because of Vegito's sudden, completely nonsensical resistance to it.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

OK, so I read through this thread for like the second or third time, and here are my thoughts on hax in Dragon Ball.

If Dragon Ball hax don't work on characters stronger than that individual (e.g. Dabura trying to use his stone spit on Beerus), that would be a weakness of the hax. However, that logic would only apply to Dragon Ball characters. If there was a character who's weaker than Dabura that can resist Petrification, like Gunvolt from Azure Striker Gunvolt, for instance, are you going to say that it would work on him in spite of his clearly shown resistance to petrification? Would Frieza's telekinesis work on Garou, who broke out of telekinesis from Psykos and later overpowered telekinesis from Tatsumaki?

No. Or at least, it's not guaranteed to.

On the flip side of that, could Jiren resist Soul Manipulation from Doctor Strange because he's stronger? Would Shinobu Oshino's Kokorowatagari, a sword that causes instant death to supernatural beings with a simple cut, not work on the Supreme Kai, who is a supernatural entity? Would Boa Hancock's Slave Arrow, which petrifies targets upon contact, not work on Kale, since she's stronger than Boa Hancock?

No. Or at least, that's not going to be the case in every scenario.

It all depends on the potency of the hax versus the potency of the resistance. If a Dragon Ball character, for example, could resist someone's mind control that can control up to 100 people, he's still going to be controlled and affected by Professor X from Marvel, for instance, due to the sheer power of his telepathic abilities.

So yeah, it's mainly weakness of the hax. If this were the case, we'd have to give DB characters resistance to every single form of hax imaginable in the case that they're stronger than their opponent. That doesn't sound logical.

 

[RinneItachi]

If this were the case, we'd have to give DB characters resistance to every single form of hax imaginable in the case that they're stronger than their opponent. That doesn't sound logical.

That's not how the argument works. The resistances would only apply to specific cases. The argument, at least the more logical one that I know of, is arguing that specific a hax shown to be or likely are resisted via power, can be resisted via power, not that all types of hax in general can be resisted via power.

Dabura's petrification isn't relevant to the argument as there is literally 0 basis to say that a Dragon Ball character can resist his hax via power, and the hax would likely never be brought up by someone using the argument above. I'm also not sure telekinetic resistances are too relevant when they're pretty commonly resisted via overpowering them. In OPM, resisting them is done via a mix of raw strength and will power, not an innate resistance to the ability itself. Honestly, saying they specifically have a resistance to it is a bit of a stretch, when them resisting it is just an application of their physical and mental capabilities.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

That's not how the argument works. The resistances would only apply to specific cases. The argument, at least the more logical one that I know of, is arguing that specific a hax shown to be or likely are resisted via power, can be resisted via power, not that all types of hax in general can be resisted via power.

Dabura's petrification isn't relevant to the argument as there is literally 0 basis to say that a Dragon Ball character can resist his hax via power, and the hax would likely never be brought up by someone using the argument above. I'm also not sure telekinetic resistances are too relevant when they're pretty commonly resisted via overpowering them. In OPM, resisting them is done via a mix of raw strength and will power, not an innate resistance to the ability itself. Honestly, saying they specifically have a resistance to it is a bit of a stretch, when them resisting it is just an application of their physical and mental capabilities.

I see what you're saying now. The only real thing I see that making sense for is Hakai, really (e.g. Jiren being stronger than Toppo and such).

For example, if a character has some insane degree of transmutation that surpasses the transmutation seen in Dragon Ball, it still wouldn't make sense to say that a character like Vegito, for instance, could resist that far stronger form of transmutation. Even if it's not for all hax, it still seems pretty preposterous, since their hax being able to be overpowered by individuals stronger than them appears to a weakness of the hax rather than a strength for the characters.

 

[RinneItachi]

Yeah I get it. I'm not arguing in favor of it anyways. It's too theoretical and just doesn't have the evidence to be officially added. Jiren with EE is the only one that I think can fully be made as an exception. It's completely unthinkable to say that GoD Toppo could stomp Jiren via EE, and saying otherwise is denying what can be resolved via pure common sense. The argument of absurdity can't even be considered a fallacy here when it's so blatant and irrefutable. As I said in my first message here, it's honestly similar to saying that Goku can't planet bust because he hasn't done it. Just because Jiren hasn't resisted Hakai's on screen does not mean in any way that he can't do so.

 

[RinneItachi]

Although, tbh, while I doubt the change would ever be implemented, I do think that Hakai might just have a weakness in the anime of it being overpowered if the person being hit by it is stronger than the level of Hakai being used. In other words, it's extremely implied that Hakai could be resisted if the person getting hit is simply stronger than the user. The manga doesn't have the same implications, though.

Ironically, even if that big of a change was implemented, it wouldn't do much, as the Gods of Destruction are extremely high in their tiers, and typically will be stronger than their opponents anyways. Most cases of the Dragon Ball character being weaker result in the Dragon Ball character getting stomped anyways, iirc.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Although, tbh, while I doubt the change would ever be implemented, I do think that Hakai might just have a weakness in the anime of it being overpowered if the person being hit by it is stronger than the level of Hakai being used. In other words, it's extremely implied that Hakai could be resisted if the person getting hit is simply stronger than the user. The manga doesn't have the same implications, though.

Ironically, even if that big of a change was implemented, it wouldn't do much, as the Gods of Destruction are extremely high in their tiers, and typically will be stronger than their opponents anyways. Most cases of the Dragon Ball character being weaker result in the Dragon Ball character getting stomped anyways, iirc.

I could see that. Personally not quite sure about the weakness for Hakai, but I do definitely think Jiren should get EE resistance. Like, now.