Another Touhou Revision.

[Zephyr_]

Reimu should get Mind manipulation: reimu stated that her amulets can do mental damage and we also have this

Byakuren	妖怪の主体は肉体ではなく、精神ですからね。	That's because the core of a youkai is not its body, but its mind.
Kanako	今までそういう例は聞いた事が無いけど、万が一怨霊が妖怪に取憑き、妖怪の性格を変えてしまったとするとどうなるか。	I have never heard of this happening, but if by any chance a vengeful spirit managed to possess a youkai and change its character, what do you think would happen?
Byakuren	その妖怪は死んだと同じになってしまうのですね。	It would be as if that youkai had died.

so it should be good for reimu to have mind manip because thats the only way to exterminate a youkai even though reimu didnt kill any.


Reimu also stated her amulets don't work well on the oblivious, or in the rain in that same scan so we should add that into her weakness.

Passive teleportation for reimu from this.

Idk what ability she would get from this but she can attack while being unconscious. She also teleported her body to her soul in Avici while being unconscious too.

17.5 cast should also get oil manipulation for absorbing oil while fighting yuuma, okina would also have it because she was the true cause of the oil leaks in Gensokyo.

Koishi would get social influence for scaring people in her Ulil story mode.

She would also have plant manipulation(can create vines and roses attacks in Aocf.)

Kasen,suika and yuugi would get resistance to magma manipulation(Oni can bathe in magma stated in Symposium of Post-mysticism/Bunbunmaru Newspaper 9).

Joon and Shion physical from should be H3A-L2C (reimu have to spam fantasy seal to deal damage agaisnt shion in her last attack and the fight between them is pretty long, defeated dream world tenshi who was gonna destroy heaven, fought a bunch of H3A-L2C characters in 17.5).

statistics reduction for Medicine(her poision clouds can slow down her opponents speed)

 

[Zephyr_]

Just gonna add some more

Healing for patchouli

Explosion manipulation for Alice from here and here

 

[Shmooply]

Reimu should get Mind manipulation: reimu stated that her amulets can do mental damage and we also have this

Agree with this.

Passive teleportation for reimu from this.

Eh, I'll go with agree as well.

Idk what ability she would get from this but she can attack while being unconscious. She also teleported her body to her soul in Avici while being unconscious too.

Instinctive Reaction. I don't need to mention that I agree with this as well.

17.5 cast should also get oil manipulation for absorbing oil while fighting yuuma, okina would also have it because she was the true cause of the oil leaks in Gensokyo.

Oil manipulation isn't an actual ability on the wiki, though we tend to classify it as water manipulation. Neutral on Okina having this ability.

Koishi would get social influence for scaring people in her Ulil story mode.

Disagree. Koishi tends to randomly appear and disappear near or infront of people just to mess with them, which would explain why they're spooked by her.

She would also have plant manipulation(can create vines and roses attacks in Aocf.)

This is fine. (Maybe she should have limited Creation as well because of that light bulb thing?)

suika and yuugi would get resistance to magma manipulation

Surprised this isn't on their profiles already. Agree.

Joon and Shion physical from should be H3A-L2C (reimu have to spam fantasy seal to deal damage agaisnt shion in her last attack and the fight between them is pretty long, defeated dream world tenshi who was gonna destroy heaven, fought a bunch of H3A-L2C characters in 17.5).

Obviously fine.

statistics reduction for Medicine

Fine.

Healing for patchouli

Explosion manipulation for Alice from here and here

These are also fine as well.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bumparoo? Idk.

 

[Shmooply]

bump 'em

 

[Shmooply]

bumpmpmpmpm

 

[Promestein]

Reimu should get Mind manipulation: reimu stated that her amulets can do mental damage and we also have this

"they don't work well on the oblivious"

she's speaking metaphorically as to 'mental damage'

Koishi would get social influence for scaring people in her Ulil story mode.

kill me

 

[Shmooply]

prom that was kinda mean :vvvv

"they don't work well on the oblivious"

she's speaking metaphorically as to 'mental damage'

This doesn't really disprove mind manipulation. Reimu is saying that dumb people can somewhat resist the effects of her amulets.

 

[Promestein]

She's saying that dumb people don't really react with the proper shock and fear they should; the mental damage is metaphorical, in the sense that a powerful, painful attack inflicts 'mental damage' by demoralizing opponents. Stupid, oblivious people don't realize how dangerous they are, so they aren't demoralized. That's all it means.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I come bearing a response from Mokou:

She's saying that dumb people don't really react with the proper shock and fear they should; the mental damage is metaphorical, in the sense that a powerful, painful attack inflicts 'mental damage' by demoralizing opponents. Stupid, oblivious people don't realize how dangerous they are, so they aren't demoralized. That's all it means.

"If that were the case, then why is 'mental damage' something attributed solely to her ofuda? You'd think that sealing needles and giant energy orbs would be just as powerful and painful as some enchanted slips of paper. The fact that Reimu clearly describes the ofuda's mental damage as a unique property means we should treat it as such, and not just "hitting someone so hard that they want to give up".

Also, 'mental damage' wouldn't really be used to describe demoralization. If that was the intent behind the text, then the text would just say the attacks demoralize people, not leave it as a vague 'mental damage'."

 

[Zephyr_]

Bump!

 

[Shmooply]

BUMP ALL THE FUKKEN THREADS

 

[Zephyr_]

Bump
We still need to get these 2 CRT done lol.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Shmooply]

giving this one a bump as well

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bump, this one hasn't really gotten any admin support beyond two points of it being questioned, most people seem to be in agreeance with everything though, could we get admins in here to possibly amend these points to the profiles soon?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Absorbing Oil is just Absorption not Oil Manipulation. I guess Oil Generation for leaking oil is fine (it may not be a power but it can still be added). I disagree with Social Influencing because it's just surprising them. Passive Teleportation I guess is fine. If they battled High 3-A/Low 2-C characters that the scaling is ok.

Everything else seems fine as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agree with what's already been agreed to here :v

I think the only thing up for debate at this point is Reimu's mind manip, which I obviously still agree with.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump please it's like one thing can we just apply the edits already

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Malomtek]

Reimu doesn't have "mind manipulation" powers, especially since she's never actually shown them once in canon. Her amulets just have non-physical interaction. Simple.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

...That's not what 'mental damage' means. I'll state my previous point again, which is that 'mental damage' is being described as a trait unique to her ofuda, which means if it were NPI, as you claim, she'd be saying that only her amulets have that property... when that's blatantly contradicted dozens of times over across the series.

Also, we don't really need examples of her using an ability in canon so long as we have statements of her being capable of doing something, and said statements can be seen as accurate.

 

[Malomtek]

...That's not what 'mental damage' means. I'll state my previous point again, which is that 'mental damage' is being described as a trait unique to her ofuda, which means if it were NPI, as you claim, she'd be saying that only her amulets have that property... when that's blatantly contradicted dozens of times over across the series.

Also, we don't really need examples of her using an ability in canon so long as we have statements of her being capable of doing something, and said statements can be seen as accurate.

"Mental damage" in this case is just the psychological trauma from being hit with a painful attack.

If the ofuda really did intrinsically affect people on a psycho-spiritual level, it would just say they did "spiritual damage". As of now you're linking entirely unrelated quotes together to manufacture some headcanon "hax" for Reimu.

"Also, we don't really need examples of her using an ability in canon so long as we have statements of her being capable of doing something"

Statement? All you have is an assumption based on a (mis)interpretation of some quotes.

And yes, you do need examples of this "mind manipulation" in canon for it to mean anything, because, last I checked, Reimu has never been able to control minds before, and specifically "psychic"/"psionic" powers have never been portrayed as within Reimu's "milieu". Your arbitrarily (not to mentioned conveniently) lowered standards mean nothing here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Mental damage" in this case is just the psychological trauma from being hit with a painful attack.

Already went over this. Her other attacks are just as, if not more painful than her ofuda, yet none of them are stated to have the property of causing mental damage. Also, pain does not inherently cause trauma.

If the ofuda really did intrinsically affect people on a psycho-spiritual level, it would just say they did "spiritual damage". As of now you're linking entirely unrelated quotes together to manufacture some headcanon "hax" for Reimu.

What? I never linked any quote. Genuinely, what the **** are you talking about?

"Also, we don't really need examples of her using an ability in canon so long as we have statements of her being capable of doing something"

Statement? All you have is an assumption based on a (mis)interpretation of some quotes.

"An assumption based on an interpretation of some quotes". That is quite literally what using statements in VSBW is meant for, Mal.

And yes, you do need examples of this "mind manipulation" in canon for it to mean anything, because, last I checked, Reimu has never been able to control minds before, and specifically "psychic"/"psionic" powers have never been portrayed as within Reimu's "milieu". Your arbitrarily (not to mentioned conveniently) lowered standards mean nothing here.

Unnecessary insults aside, I never once claimed that Reimu can control minds; she is only capable of directly attacking the mind in a manner that would cause some degree of 'mental damage'. You are aware that mind manipulation isn't just limited to mind control, correct?

 

[Malomtek]

Already went over this. Her other attacks are just as, if not more painful than her ofuda, yet none of them are stated to have the property of causing mental damage. Also, pain does not inherently cause trauma.


What? I never linked any quote. Genuinely, what the **** are you talking about?


"An assumption based on an interpretation of some quotes". That is quite literally what using statements in VSBW is meant for, Mal.


Unnecessary insults aside, I never once claimed that Reimu can control minds; she is only capable of directly attacking the mind in a manner that would cause some degree of 'mental damage'. You are aware that mind manipulation isn't just limited to mind control, correct?

The "mental damage" is some weird religious "shock and awe" thing, which is why the "oblivious" are effectively resistant to it. It's not intrinsically hurting the mind as such, otherwise being "oblivious" would have no effect on it's effectiveness. Stop cherry picking the parts of the quotes you like while handwaving away the rest.

I'm sorry, I confused you with OP for a second concerning the quote-linking thing. You Touhou supporters are basically identical to each other anyway.

The way the actual page describes "mind manipulation", it's literally coterminous with "mind control". Weird non-physical interactions or even damage effects aren't "mind control". So as for the rest of the post, either show Reimu mind-controlling someone, with ofuda or some other method, in canon, or concede the argument.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The "mental damage" is some weird religious "shock and awe" thing, which is why the "oblivious" are effectively resistant to it. It's not intrinsically hurting the mind as such, otherwise being "oblivious" would have no effect on it's effectiveness. Stop cherry picking the parts of the quotes you like while handwaving away the rest.

Where are you getting the idea that it's tied to religion? Nowhere is that stated in the scan itself. Accuse me of cherry picking all you like, but even if that were true, it'd certainly be better than making stuff up out of nowhere.

I'm sorry, I confused you with OP for a second concerning the quote-linking thing. You Touhou supporters are basically identical to each other anyway.

Do you really wanna push your luck with this shit not 2 days after getting unbanned?

The way the actual page describes "mind manipulation", it's literally coterminous with "mind control". Weird non-physical interactions or even damage effects aren't "mind control". So as for the rest of the post, either show Reimu mind-controlling someone, with ofuda or some other method, in canon, or concede the argument.

And the page quite literally lists no less then 3 examples that would not fall under mind control; also keep in mind that no page in existence is going to list every single niche usage of an ability. And for the love of god stop asking me to prove something that I never argued for to begin with.

 

[Malomtek]

Where are you getting the idea that it's tied to religion? Nowhere is that stated in the scan itself. Accuse me of cherry picking all you like, but even if that were true, it'd certainly be better than making stuff up out of nowhere.


Do you really wanna push your luck with this shit not 2 days after getting unbanned?


And the page quite literally lists no less then 3 examples that would not fall under mind control; also keep in mind that no page in existence is going to list every single niche usage of an ability. And for the love of god stop asking me to prove something that I never argued for to begin with.

"This religious object being used as a weapon has nothing to do with religion."

Also, I'm not seeing any display of Reimu mind-controlling people, or (for that matter) somehow affecting people's minds or spirits as such with ofuda or whatever. I shall accept your concession then.

 

[Malomtek]

Do you really wanna push your luck with this shit not 2 days after getting unbanned?

Stop making these weird thinly-veiled threats as if you're personally involved in my situation. It's creepy, bro. Attempts to intimidate people are not cool.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"This religious object being used as a weapon has nothing to do with religion."

That still doesn't mean it's dealing some sort of holy damage with every hit. And even then, if it was holy damage, the text would just say that and not mental damage. Oh, and 'holy damage' would only really work on youkai, so even if that interpretation was correct, it'd still be heavily contradicted by the fact that Reimu's ofuda work just fine on humans and gods.

Also, I'm not seeing any display of Reimu mind-controlling people, or (for that matter) somehow affecting people's minds or spirits as such with ofuda or whatever. I shall accept your concession then.

If you're attempting to get under my skin, the least you could do is make it less obvious. Anyways, I never said she mind controlled anybody. Like I've been saying for the past 20 or so minutes now.

Stop making these weird threats as if you're personally involved in my situation. It's creepy, bro.

I am literally asking you not to insult people. And when such insults are directed at me specifically, then it absolutely is my business. Also, don't call me 'bro'.

 

[Malomtek]

That still doesn't mean it's dealing some sort of holy damage with every hit. And even then, if it was holy damage, the text would just say that and not mental damage.

"Just because she's using sanctified religious objects, doesn't mean she's dealing some kind of 'holy' damage with them."

Ridiculous.

And since this entire "mental damage" nonsense is beginning to reek of "mistranslation" to me, I would like to ask for some raws of that scan, please.

If you're attempting to get under my skin, the least you could do is make it less obvious. Anyways, I never said she mind controlled anybody. Like I've been saying for the past 20 or so minutes now.

Who says I'm trying to "get under your skin"?

And since I'm not seeing any proof that Reimu can somehow affect people's minds or spirits as such with ofuda or whatever, I guess that "mental damage" thing can just be thrown out.

I am literally asking you not to insult people. And when such insults are directed at me specifically, then it absolutely is my business. Also, don't call me 'bro'.

I'm not "insulting" you though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can smack someone around with a menorah but that doesn't mean I'm channeling holy energy with every swing. Ofuda are holy items, that much is true, but that does not inherently mean they deal holy damage.

Also, suggesting the idea that something is a mistranslation just because it contradicts your headcanons is absurd.

Anyways, since you seem intent on continually misinterpreting what I say, then I have nothing else to say here.

 

[Malomtek]

I can smack someone around with a menorah but that doesn't mean I'm channeling holy energy with every swing. Ofuda are holy items, that much is true, but that does not inherently mean they deal holy damage.

Maybe so, but that also doesn't mean that they do whatever weird psychic damage you think they do either.

Also, suggesting the idea that something is a mistranslation just because it contradicts your headcanons is absurd.

Anyways, since you seem intent on continually misinterpreting what I say, then I have nothing else to say here.

For someone who literally just reported me for being "rude", these are quite the foot-bullets.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

'Mental' is a term relating to the mind and its functions. There is no definition of it that would imply a relation to holy weaponry of any kind. The interpretation of her ofuda attacking the mind directly is one that is inherently implied by the text, while the holy damage interpretation is not, and would require additional context to be considered valid. Context that you have yet to provide.

I am obviously aware that mental damage can be used describe a wide range of things. But out of the options presented, mind manipulation is the only one that is not contradicted in one way or another, making it the most reasonable assumption.

 

[Malomtek]

'Mental' is a term relating to the mind and its functions. There is no definition of it that would imply a relation to holy weaponry of any kind. The interpretation of her ofuda attacking the mind directly is one that is inherently implied by the text, while the holy damage interpretation is not, and would require additional context to be considered valid. Context that you have yet to provide.

I am obviously aware that mental damage can be used describe a wide range of things. But out of the options presented, mind manipulation is the only one that is not contradicted in one way or another, making it the most reasonable assumption.

The "holy damage" thing isn't even my main argument. My main argument is that the ofuda do some non-physical interaction-style damage, and nothing else. Certainly we have yet to see this so-called "mental damage" do anything particularly "psionic" to a human opponent's mind, and we never once hear of anyone who fought Reimu comment on how their minds were being ****** with by the ofuda. There's also no reason why its supposed "psionic" damage should be at all affected by the level of "knowledge" or "obliviousness" of the opponent. It therefore means that whatever this "mental damage" is, it's not some weird form of psychic attack.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As I have repeatedly explained, Reimu describes the mental damage as an effect unique to her ofuda. It is quite clearly mean to be something distinct from her other techniques, so if an interpretation of what mental damage is just so happens to share traits with a separate technique, we cannot use it, as it would contradict the context of the scene.

To this end, saying that it is merely NPI is flat out wrong. After all, all of Reimu's abilities can harm spiritual entities, even her standard melee attacks. Therefore, NPI is not a trait unique to her ofuda, and thus contradicts the text, and cannot be used as a valid interpretation. Same goes for the pain argument; metal needles and giant energy orbs would hurt just as much as some enchanted slips of paper, which would mean that mental damage in the sense of causing significant pain would also not be a unique ofuda trait, and thus unusable.

Also, please explain to me how we are supposed to 'see' what mental damage looks like. It is something that, by its very nature, would be imperceptible.

 

[Malomtek]

As I have repeatedly explained, Reimu describes the mental damage as an effect unique to her ofuda.

No she doesn't.

She just says that her ofuda/amulets "do a lot of mental damage" and that they don't work well on the "oblivious" or in the wind and rain, with no further specifications on what "mental damage" means. She didn't describe this "doing a lot of mental damage" as a property unique to her ofuda, and given that she prefers needles over these apparently mindfucking magic paper slips due to their "divine connection", one wonders on the potency of the ofuda's "mental damage" in any case.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

She states that she prefers needles because they're easier to throw and don't possess any of the standard ofuda weaknesses, so that is utterly unrelated to the point. The potency of an attack hardly matters if the attack itself requires significantly more skill to use than other attacks, or is easily countered by slight changes in weather.

The context of the scene is that Reimu is describing the unique traits of her ofuda; not once does she ever generalize any of their attributes. Their weaknesses are unique, and so are their mental damage. If you are so insistent that other abilities of hers are capable of replicating this mental damage, then please show me evidence.

 

[Malomtek]

The context of the scene is that Reimu is describing the unique traits of her ofuda; not once does she ever generalize any of their attributes. Their weaknesses are unique, and so are their mental damage. If you are so insistent that other abilities of hers are capable of replicating this mental damage, then please show me evidence.

You don't put a qualifier on "mental damage" if it was a unique property of one weapon or type of weapon. Just saying "mental damage" by itself would be enough.

As for "other abilities of hers are capable of replicating this mental damage", since the ofudas really just have NPI, and their "mental damage" is just some weird "shock and awe" thing that enhances the pain of an attack unless you're "oblivious", all I can say is:

all of Reimu's abilities can harm spiritual entities, even her standard melee attacks