Another IDW Sonic CRT

[LaserPrecision]

We've got a bit to cover here.

Silver the Hedgehog: His justification for scaling to Sonic's speed should be changed. Instead of saying he fights alongside Sonic, use this feat of him capturing Metal Sonic inside of a barrier. For this same feat, Silver's range should also be upgraded. He clearly launched Metal Sonic more than 'tens of meters' away when he launched him over to the mountain. I wouldn't be surprised if it were hundreds of meters (possibly kilometers, but that might be a bit too generous). While some might counter with him not being able to reach in many directions at once or being able to hold down a really large target, that's more of an area of effect issue than a range problem since it's clear he can hold smaller targets from far away but struggle to get a good hold of really big targets from really up close (Not to mention, having a problem with focusing on many directions at once doesn't have anything to do with range, rather split focus. Not to mention in the Zombot arc we see Silver easily focus on multiple targets with Psychokinesis anyways, holding up dozens of Zombots with ease).

Super Silver's range should be upgraded to Planetary. Not only did he grab the Metal Virus from all around the Planet, but he was able to move the Metal Virus over 47443.41 kilometers via Psychokinesis.

While we're speaking of Super Forms, I think Super Forms should get a 'likely Invulnerable/invincible' ability in their powers and abilities. Why? For several reasons actually. It's already well established in the games that the Super Forms make the use completely invincible to damage, but in addition to that, the author of the IDW Comics Ian Flynn has expressed and consistently depicted Super Sonic as invulnerable too. We see that Super Sonic is invulnerable in the Archie Comics where it's explicitly stated (again, by Ian Flynn)

Blaze in the IDW Comics also states that now that she's in her Burning form (Her parallel to Super Sonic), she can't be harmed by the enemy ships anymore which I think is borderline blatantly hinting at the character being invulnerable

In summary: Games which the comics take place after establish Super Forms are invulnerable, Ian Flynn who wrote the Archie Comics and currently writes the IDW Comics established that Super Forms are invulnerable, and Blaze IN the IDW Comics stated she can't be harmed by the enemy whilst in that form.

I think this warrants at least likely having invulnerability in the Super Forms powers and abilities.

Now for AP upgrades

Mid-Tiers of the verse should be upgraded to Town level via scaling to Silver who performed this feat.

Assuming Eggman gets a profile, as well as Omega, those two should scale off of this Small Town level feat performed by Eggman's mech. The reason they don't scale to Mid-Tiers is because Eggman already accepted he lost as soon as Sonic arrived to fight immediately before being blitzed by Sonic right after stating he was going to kill low-tiers of the verse (with said hypothetical feat I calculated that he'll scale to). Omega scales below Town level because he lacks many feats and used up all of his power to destroy Eggman's mech in one shot. Falling apart right after.

Low-Tiers also receive an upgrade for being semi-comparable to mid-tiers who were previously Multi-City Block level. The feat Sonic previously scaled to was a casual feat, thus I thought most people should've scaled to begin with, however, the story made it clear that mid-tiers are a step above low-tiers, so I didn't feel comfortable having them in the same tier. But now that they'll be receiving upgrades, I think it's safe to upgrade them to Multi-City Block level which is just below Small Town level. Consistent again because Eggman's Small Town level mech was fending of many Small Town level characters simultaneously. I think this can actually be a second key though since it's in Sonic's profile that he has passive growth. Clearly, other characters need to grow to continue to be in his tier. If you weren't aware, Sonic grew stronger from being locked up for 6 months. Yea, it's that passive. They've certainly had enough time to grow by the time Silver pulled off this feat as it's near the end of the second major arc of the IDW Comics (First was the Neo Metal Sonic arc, and Silver pulled this off near the end of the Zombot arc). I'll leave it up to the people reading this if a key should be added or if their original tiers should just be replaced or not because of this.

Super Forms should be upgraded, albeit not by much because of this calc. However, it's not currently accepted. I'm hoping it will get accepted by any calc group members who may stumble across this CRT.

One last thing is downgrading Starline. What do I think should be downgraded? His speed. Yes, he was able to react to Sonic, but who's to say Sonic was using his full speed when he's been shown to blitz FASTER characters? Does that make any sense? No. Especially since Starline is depicted to not be physically that impressive, even inferior to low-tiers such as Rough and Tumble, and characters who currently only scale to Sonic's speed when exhausted (high hypersonic) can react and combat him when he's not using the Tri-Core to gain Sonic's speed (Which ironically when he uses he moves far faster than any of the low tier). So while I do think he should scale to Massively Hypersonic with the Tri-Core, I don't think he should without it. Sonic simply could've been holding back, Starline's portals also open really quick, and it's also possible he predicted they'd charge him. It's far more consistent to just scale him to low-tiers.

I think that's about everything.

Edit: Super Forms should get Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength via accepted calculation

 

[ShakeResounding]

TL;DR:

Downgrade Starline's speed, update Silver's speed + range, and Super Silvers range.

8-A+ Low-Tiers due to downscaling from Low 7-C

7-C Mid-Tiers scaling to Silver, potentially as a second key.

5-A Supers get a higher-end value (Calc Eval pending) and Invulnerability.

That's the gist of this, right?

 

[LaserPrecision]

That's the gist of this, right?

Pretty much, yep. I was considering Low-Tiers getting a second key as I imagine their abilities increased in proportion to Mid-Tiers as well, but It's probably fine to just get rid of their original Key. I also didn't think about just downscaling them from Low 7-C, but rather putting them at Sonic's level of Multi-City Block level. But downscaling actually works pretty well too since they were able to do damage to him albeit were clearly below. Meaning Low-Tiers could be just below Baseline Low 7-C, or in other words top of 8-A.

 

[sanicspood]

Blaze in the IDW Comics also states that now that she's in her Burning form (Her parallel to Super Sonic), she can't be harmed by the enemy ships anymore which I think is borderline blatantly hinting at the character being invulnerable

Couldn’t this just be like, raw durability?

 

[sanicspood]

And if we’re really going by the “if the games have it so does the comic” then by this logic we should give the idw super cast all of the powers of the game super cast

 

[ShakeResounding]

And if we’re really going by the “if the games have it so does the comic” then by this logic we should give the idw super cast all of the powers of the game super cast

Somewhat of a false equivalence.

The reason why IDW Sonic isn't just a carbon copy of Game Sonic is because we only pass on abilities that are important to the plot of the Games (indisputably so) to avoid anything related to game mechanics. Invulnerability is, like, the ENTIRE gimmick of a Super Form. It always has been, something that can't be said for anything else a Super Form shows except for the basics (like flight).

 

[BlastX]

I agree with the CRT, it's kinda funny I was looking to find someone to upscale from Low 7-C from Sonic's 8-A+ feat but this is honestly way better.

 

[LaserPrecision]

And if we’re really going by the “if the games have it so does the comic” then by this logic we should give the idw super cast all of the powers of the game super cast

Basically what Shake said. If it's something explicitly explored by the lore of the games (as in well established to be an actual ability) such as Sonic's boost, his home-attack, etc.

More game-mechanic-oriented abilities can be ignored. But it seems quite obvious that Invulnerability is well established for the Super Forms, both in the games and in Ian Flynn's opinion who's writing the comics. The line from Blaze seems to heavily imply she can't be hurt due to the Super/Burning Form's granted Invulnerability.

 

[Theuser789]

I agree and invulnerability was a long time coming

 

[ShakeResounding]

As for the second key stuff. I don't really mind it, but I feel like we'd need more reasoning to even bother keeping the 8-A+ stuff for the Mid-Tiers other than just "Sonic's gotten stronger and it happened in a later arc". Both of those things are true, but it isn't much basis on its own to warrant it.

Again, I'm not against the idea (I think I'd even enjoy it). I'll wait to see other people's opinions on it

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'm not sure what else would be needed for a character to need a separate key. If someone got stronger, and they pulled off a feat significantly stronger than previous feats, would that not warrant another key given it takes place over an arc later? I think that's the basis for most keys (aside from transformations) as the character clearly became significantly stronger between said arcs. The first key could be Neo Metal Sonic arc, and the other Zombot arc, though I don't think that comes off the tongue very well.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Bump

 

[GodlyCharmander]

8-A+ Low-Tiers due to downscaling from Low 7-C

The feat isn't baseline Low 7-C, so a downscaling to baseline Low 7-C is perfectly fine.

anyway, I agree with this

 

[Mephistus]

I concur

 

[ShakeResounding]

The feat isn't baseline Low 7-C, so a downscaling to baseline Low 7-C is perfectly fine.

It's more of them being comparable to a casual Sonic of the previous arc from what OP is saying, which I didn't know by the time I said that. But I think the fact that he was gonna kill a group of 7 or so of them implies that they aren't that relative to him (since they all had to work together to put some damage in iirc), and the feat is just .1 kiloton above the baseline.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's more of them being comparable to a casual Sonic of the previous arc from what OP is saying, which I didn't know by the time I said that. But I think the fact that he was gonna kill a group of 7 or so of them implies that they aren't that relative to him (since they all had to work together to put some damage in iirc), and the feat is just .1 kiloton above the baseline.

Huh? I think I misread the feat as 11 Kilotons, which is 10 kilotons above baseline. Sorry

 

[ShakeResounding]

So, question to Laser.

You're basically saying to give Sonic a key for the Neo-Metal Arc (where he'd be 8-A+) as well as the Zombot Arc (where he'd be 7-C)? Or potentially something else?

 

[LaserPrecision]

So, question to Laser.

You're basically saying to give Sonic a key for the Neo-Metal Arc (where he'd be 8-A+) as well as the Zombot Arc (where he'd be 7-C)? Or potentially something else?

Essentially yes. We would only need to create a new key whenever Sonic takes a major jump in power. In this case he did. He jumped 2 tiers. Tho we could come up with alternative names for the keys if people don't like naming the keys after the arcs. Potentially we could do the same for Low-Tiers, with them having a key that's City Block level+ and one that's Multi-City Block level+ (Scaling to Neo Sonic's casual feat). I'm willing to be pretty flexible here.

 

[ShakeResounding]

So I guess it's really just about figuring out to do there since everything seems to be pretty agreeable still waiting on those other opinions btw

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yep. I would be fine not giving another key to Low-Tiers and assuming they always at least scaled to that casual feat, I just find the idea of them scaling relative to Sonic within that arc kinda weird since the IDW Comics makes the discrepency between Low-Tiers and Mid-Tiers pretty obvious within the series. So I think giving them different keys is fine too. But again, keys would only come into effect when a big jump in power is made. In this case they'd go from City Block level+ to Multi-City Block level+. They make a pretty big jump, so I think giving them two keys is also fine.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Characters progressively getting stronger with each passing arc, it seems IDW Sonic is a shonen manga in disguise.

Yeah I overall agree with the proposals, iirc near the end of Neo Metal Sonic arc Silver says something on the lines of "I've never reached this far in so many directions before" when using his psychokinesis to save everyone and in the following Metal Virus arc he accomplishes quite a few impressive feats, further backing characters becoming stronger with each passing (major) arc.

 

[BlastX]

Considering each arc are called seasons (so I heard once) mayeb they keys can be "Season 1" and "Season 2"

 

[LaserPrecision]

Considering each arc are called seasons (so I heard once) mayeb they keys can be "Season 1" and "Season 2"

I don't recall anything about 'seasons'. I feel like it might be easier for casual viewers to know exactly what arc/saga's they become the level they're at so they can look for themselves. Don't want to be too vague.

Characters progressively getting stronger with each passing arc, it seems IDW Sonic is a shonen manga in disguise.

Yeah I overall agree with the proposals, iirc near the end of Neo Metal Sonic arc Silver says something on the lines of "I've never reached this far in so many directions before" when using his psychokinesis to save everyone and in the following Metal Virus arc he accomplishes quite a few impressive feats, further backing characters becoming stronger with each passing (major) arc.

That's true. Silver struggled to catch Sonic & friends from falling in several directions, yet in the next arc we see him do it casually. Several times actually IIRC. Definitely seems to be growth.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Silver the Hedgehog:

Instead of saying he fights alongside Sonic, use this feat of him capturing Metal Sonic inside of a barrier.

Preferably, include the previous page to show Metal in motion. By itself, it looks like Silver grabbed Metal as he was standing still.

For this same feat, Silver's range should also be upgraded. He clearly launched Metal Sonic more than 'tens of meters' away when he launched him over to the mountain. I wouldn't be surprised if it were hundreds of meters (possibly kilometers, but that might be a bit too generous). While some might counter with him not being able to reach in many directions at once or being able to hold down a really large target, that's more of an area of effect issue than a range problem since it's clear he can hold smaller targets from far away but struggle to get a good hold of really big targets from really up close (Not to mention, having a problem with focusing on many directions at once doesn't have anything to do with range, rather split focus. Not to mention in the Zombot arc we see Silver easily focus on multiple targets with Psychokinesis anyways, holding up dozens of Zombots with ease).

So, should we focus on Silver having two types of range? AOE and in a straight line?

Super Silver's range should be upgraded to Planetary. Not only did he grab the Metal Virus from all around the Planet, but he was able to move the Metal Virus over 47443.41 kilometers via Psychokinesis.

I'm a little unsure. Perhaps we should elaborate on it, since Silver had to travel with Super Sonic across the planet to pick them up.

While we're speaking of Super Forms, I think Super Forms should get a 'likely Invulnerable/invincible' ability in their powers and abilities. Why? For several reasons actually. It's already well established in the games that the Super Forms make the use completely invincible to damage, but in addition to that, the author of the IDW Comics Ian Flynn has expressed and consistently depicted Super Sonic as invulnerable too. We see that Super Sonic is invulnerable in the Archie Comics where it's explicitly stated (again, by Ian Flynn)

Blaze in the IDW Comics also states that now that she's in her Burning form (Her parallel to Super Sonic), she can't be harmed by the enemy ships anymore which I think is borderline blatantly hinting at the character being invulnerable

In summary: Games which the comics take place after establish Super Forms are invulnerable, Ian Flynn who wrote the Archie Comics and currently writes the IDW Comics established that Super Forms are invulnerable, and Blaze IN the IDW Comics stated she can't be harmed by the enemy whilst in that form.

I think this warrants at least likely having invulnerability in the Super Forms powers and abilities.

I 100% agree with the Likely rating for the ability. I'm sure there will be a statement for invulnerability for the forms sometime later in the comic to be more definitive.

Mid-Tiers of the verse should be upgraded to Town level via scaling to Silver who performed this feat.

Assuming Eggman gets a profile, as well as Omega, those two should scale off of this Small Town level feat performed by Eggman's mech. The reason they don't scale to Mid-Tiers is because Eggman already accepted he lost as soon as Sonic arrived to fight immediately before being blitzed by Sonic right after stating he was going to kill low-tiers of the verse (with said hypothetical feat I calculated that he'll scale to). Omega scales below Town level because he lacks many feats and used up all of his power to destroy Eggman's mech in one shot. Falling apart right after.

Low-Tiers also receive an upgrade for being semi-comparable to mid-tiers who were previously Multi-City Block level. The feat Sonic previously scaled to was a casual feat, thus I thought most people should've scaled to begin with, however, the story made it clear that mid-tiers are a step above low-tiers, so I didn't feel comfortable having them in the same tier. But now that they'll be receiving upgrades, I think it's safe to upgrade them to Multi-City Block level which is just below Small Town level. Consistent again because Eggman's Small Town level mech was fending of many Small Town level characters simultaneously. I think this can actually be a second key though since it's in Sonic's profile that he has passive growth. Clearly, other characters need to grow to continue to be in his tier. If you weren't aware, Sonic grew stronger from being locked up for 6 months. Yea, it's that passive. They've certainly had enough time to grow by the time Silver pulled off this feat as it's near the end of the second major arc of the IDW Comics (First was the Neo Metal Sonic arc, and Silver pulled this off near the end of the Zombot arc). I'll leave it up to the people reading this if a key should be added or if their original tiers should just be replaced or not because of this.

Super Forms should be upgraded, albeit not by much because of this calc. However, it's not currently accepted. I'm hoping it will get accepted by any calc group members who may stumble across this CRT.

I have little issue with this scaling as of now.

One last thing is downgrading Starline. What do I think should be downgraded? His speed. Yes, he was able to react to Sonic, but who's to say Sonic was using his full speed when he's been shown to blitz FASTER characters? Does that make any sense? No. Especially since Starline is depicted to not be physically that impressive, even inferior to low-tiers such as Rough and Tumble, and characters who currently only scale to Sonic's speed when exhausted (high hypersonic) can react and combat him when he's not using the Tri-Core to gain Sonic's speed (Which ironically when he uses he moves far faster than any of the low tier). So while I do think he should scale to Massively Hypersonic with the Tri-Core, I don't think he should without it. Sonic simply could've been holding back, Starline's portals also open really quick, and it's also possible he predicted they'd charge him. It's far more consistent to just scale him to low-tiers.

Not sure. I know people tend to throw around "Sonic was casual here" so others wouldn't scale to his speed but that feat also had Silver going after Starline as well. Since the OP is scaling Silver to Sonic, Starline would've been able to react to Silver's speed.

Of course, I'd only think of Dr. Starline's reaction speed, not travel speed as he does with the Tri-Core.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Preferably, include the previous page to show Metal in motion. By itself, it looks like Silver grabbed Metal as he was standing still.

I concur

So, should we focus on Silver having two types of range? AOE and in a straight line?

I suppose? This is really applicable for most characters tho, tbf. Such as characters who can only use their hand. Due to the limited surface area, they wouldn't be able to exactly grapple super large characters as they can with characters their size. Not sure how we'd implement an area of effect and range/reach of Psychokinesis tho.

I'm a little unsure. Perhaps we should elaborate on it, since Silver had to travel with Super Sonic across the planet to pick them up.

He traveled with Super Sonic to make sure he picked everything up. Not to mention, launching a bunch of metalic goo in a straight line to the sun is easier than sucking metalic goo off every crevice of Earth. Anyways, even before they circumnavigated the globe, most of the metal virus already appeared to be removed. I strongly believe they were just making sure they got every drop (As even leaving a single drop would result in a failure) thus why Sonic asked afterward if he got it all. Planetary range seems fine if you ask me.

Not sure. I know people tend to throw around "Sonic was casual here" so others wouldn't scale to his speed but that feat also had Silver going after Starline as well. Since the OP is scaling Silver to Sonic, Starline would've been able to react to Silver's speed.

Silver was flying at him. It was established within the same issue that Silver's travel speed < Sonic's travel speed (Thus why Sonic towed him across the mountain, to which Silver stated it was way faster), so Starline reacting to Sonic's casual speed and thus in addition Silver (Who was charging in the same direction) could both logically be predicted and be caught by his warp portals. Especially given how fast they open up. There's also the fact that Starline was relatively harmless, and so it's unlikely Silver would need to take him as seriously as Metal Sonic (Or on the contrary, Silver could be trying to be precautious and stay by Sonic's side whilst approaching him). After all, as far as they knew, aside from the Warp portals, he was defenseless.

It would also create a scaling issue if he scaled to Sonic/Silver's combat/travel speed as any character who can keep up would have speed that scales to Sonic, which is far from true as we see characters who scale to Sonic blitz Low-Tiers, Mid-Tiers, and Low-Mid tiers (Sonic blitzes Neo Metal, Metal Sonic knocks away Rough and Tumble, and Sonic blitzes Eggman's mech that was superior to almost all the Low-Tiers in the verse in a 1vAll)

 

[ElixirBlue]

suppose? This is really applicable for most characters tho, tbf. Such as characters who can only use their hand. Due to the limited surface area, they wouldn't be able to exactly grapple super large characters as they can with characters their size. Not sure how we'd implement an area of effect and range/reach of Psychokinesis tho.

We can list them as separate ratings like travel, reaction and combat speed. How, not sure. Maybe AOE (this much), straight ahead? (this much)

He traveled with Super Sonic to make sure he picked everything up. Not to mention, launching a bunch of metalic goo in a straight line to the sun is easier than sucking metalic goo off every crevice of Earth. Anyways, even before they circumnavigated the globe, most of the metal virus already appeared to be removed. I strongly believe they were just making sure they got every drop (As even leaving a single drop would result in a failure) thus why Sonic asked afterward if he got it all. Planetary range seems fine if you ask me.

Oh, it does for me as well. When listing the rating on the profile, elaborating why through an explanation is preferred.

Silver was flying at him. It was established within the same issue that Silver's travel speed < Sonic's travel speed (Thus why Sonic towed him across the mountain, to which Silver stated it was way faster), so Starline reacting to Sonic's casual speed and thus in addition Silver (Who was charging in the same direction) could both logically be predicted and be caught by his warp portals.

I believe Silver only had said that when Sonic used his Stat Amp, the Super Peel Out. Sonic’s SPO is faster than his regular travel speed. Silver even suggested using his flight speed would’ve been faster, likely given the terrain.

I don’t think Silver saying Sonic’s stat amp being faster is enough to say their travel speed is enough to not scale.

After all, as far as they knew, aside from the Warp portals, he was defenseless.

That logic does work for the first use of the Warp portals, but the second time had Sonic rushed in with a Homming Attack after first portal clowned him and Starline reacted.

Especially given how fast they open up. There's also the fact that Starline was relatively harmless, and so it's unlikely Silver would need to take him as seriously as Metal Sonic

I would disagree on that: Silver doesn’t have a history of underestimating new foes. He took Sonic and Shadow in 06, who were both antagonists to him, very seriously. Different situation, but Silver isn’t known to not put his best foot forward when dealing with an antagonist, which Dr. Starline clearly presented himself as.

 

[LaserPrecision]

We can list them as separate ratings like travel, reaction and combat speed. How, not sure. Maybe AOE (this much), straight ahead? (this much)

Possibly, though I don't think the AOE needs to be mentioned in the profiles as long as it's addressed within vs threads that his AOE is limited. Though I'm not opposed to an AOE rating.

I believe Silver only had said that when Sonic used his Stat Amp, the Super Peel Out. Sonic’s SPO is faster than his regular travel speed. Silver even suggested using his flight speed would’ve been faster, likely given the terrain.

I don’t think Silver saying Sonic’s stat amp being faster is enough to say their travel speed is enough to not scale.

It's possible it had to do with the terrain, but I think it had to do with Silver underestimating Sonic's travel speed given the terrain (It didn't seem to make a major difference).

Probably isn't the best place to address it, but I think the concept of the Super Peel Out being a 'speed boost' is absolute baloney. I always interpreted it as it allowing Sonic to immediately reach top speeds, or near top speeds (Which is true, within the game of CD, the Super Peel Out's level of speed CAN be achieved in-game, but requires a lot more build-up to do so). That would work here too, since the whole problem with the snowy terrain was that it was hard to build up momentum, so what better way to counter it than to use a technique that allows him to instantly build up momentum and propel himself forward with said momentum? It's a perfectly logical counter. The boost on the other hand is a proper 'speed boost' is it actually pushes him past his top speed achievable without it.

Not to mention within the comic, even if you argue it is a speed-boost in the games, can function differently within the comics, and given the context, quick acceleration fits more accurately into the scene than a 'speed boost' does.

I mean, Sonic's known for being the 'fastest', well, in travel speed anyways. Silver certainly scales in reaction and combat speed, but I don't see a reason to scale his travel speed too.

That logic does work for the first use of the Warp portals, but the second time had Sonic rushed in with a Homming Attack after first portal clowned him and Starline reacted.

It works for both. As I said, aside from the warp portals, they believed him to be defenseless. He show zero combat capabilities and depended on Metal to do the 'heavy lifting' for him. Sonic using the homing attack (Partially to get out of the snow that we see Silver to be snuck in, partially to be sneaky) isn't an indicator of him using most of his speed. Because again, assuming he does completely screws up the scaling chain. Even puts his reaction/combat speeds above Neo Metal Sonic (Who had been blitzed by Base Sonic) and above actual combatants, whereas his specialty is technology and cheap tactics. We know he's inferior to physical combats, it's well established. He's afraid of confronting even small groups of Badniks

He even states he needs the power to keep up with 'supersonic hedgehogs' implying he's inferior to their speed:

At worst, this is them holding back (Which you can do while taking someone seriously), at worst it's PIS as it contradicts what's established before (and even after IIRC). It completely goes against how his character is supposed to function, a tech-savvy sneaky fighter.

I can agree with his combat speed and travel speed scaling to Sonic with the Tri-Core, as it was stated verbatim by him to allow him to combat Sonic, Knuckles, or Tails, and gave him the ability to fight Shadow and actually gain an upper hand over him. But without it? I think the safest assumption is to either scale his reactions to his own feats, or to low-tiers speed, as he's even below Low-Tiers physically.

I would disagree on that: Silver doesn’t have a history of underestimating new foes. He took Sonic and Shadow in 06, who were both antagonists to him, very seriously. Different situation, but Silver isn’t known to not put his best foot forward when dealing with an antagonist, which Dr. Starline clearly presented himself as.

Completely different case. Silver believed Sonic caused his terrible future, and Shadow got in the way of Silver trying to defeat Sonic. Not to mention, Silver did hold back on the first encounter (to a small extent) based on his conversation afterward with Mephiles, stating he didn't think Sonic to be a bad guy, and didn't feel right killing him. Of course, Mephiles further convinced him to commit as we see later on.

Dr. Starline isn't the one who caused Silver's future, and Silver's grown less naive. It's true, he doesn't take threats lightly, but that doesn't mean he's constantly giving it his all. Or again, it can also be interpreted as him being precautious.

Don't even think about stonewalling me Elixir

 

[ElixirBlue]

Don't even think about stonewalling me Elixir

Really don’t mean to . My objective is reaching the closest we can to objective stats.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Really don’t mean to . My objective is reaching the closest we can to objective stats.

Your ulterior motives will be revealed!

So do you for the most part, or even now completely agree with the suggested changes? I think I've presented sufficient evidence within my counter-claims to persuade you into considering it. I do want your opinion now, rather than having to wait a few days for it (Not to rush you or anything, it's just my CRTs often get ignored for days and hardly make any progress due to lack of active participants).

 

[LaserPrecision]

Bump

 

[LaserPrecision]

Oh! I completely forgot something important, I can't believe I forgot about it. But I also wanted to upgrade Super Silver, and by extension, God Tiers (Super Forms) Lifting Strength via this accepted calc. I'll edit this into the OP, but wanted to warn others that I had wanted to cover this.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Oh! I completely forgot something important, I can't believe I forgot about it. But I also wanted to upgrade Super Silver, and by extension, God Tiers (Super Forms) Lifting Strength via this accepted calc. I'll edit this into the OP, but wanted to warn others that I had wanted to cover this.

Pre-Stellar!?!

Well at least IDW Silver can unironically be labelled as a "psycho crusher" now.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Agree with the Lifting Strength upgrade for Super Forms too btw

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also we still need some more input on that key business, any opinions or ways to go about it are welcome

 

[LaserPrecision]

If others do end up agreeing with the suggested added keys, the suggested names for the Keys I'd recommend is

Neo Metal Sonic Saga | Zombot Saga

and so on for each large jump made in an arc/saga. Simple, but rolls off the tongue well enough.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Possibly, though I don't think the AOE needs to be mentioned in the profiles as long as it's addressed within vs threads that his AOE is limited. Though I'm not opposed to an AOE rating.

I think it would be needed to be address on the profiles. We need to assume we won’t be around forever, as that is a fact. It’s important to leave as much info behind as possible.

Probably isn't the best place to address it, but I think the concept of the Super Peel Out being a 'speed boost' is absolute baloney. I always interpreted it as it allowing Sonic to immediately reach top speeds, or near top speeds (Which is true, within the game of CD, the Super Peel Out's level of speed CAN be achieved in-game, but requires a lot more build-up to do so).

There is a scan that exist of Game Super Peel Out being a confirmed Speed Amp. We had used SPO as part of our Game Speed Scaling.

Not to mention within the comic, even if you argue it is a speed-boost in the games, can function differently within the comics, and given the context, quick acceleration fits more accurately into the scene than a 'speed boost' does.

Not really. At this point, Silver has known Sonic for a good while and has gone on a couple of adventures with him like Sonic Rivals, where that title has a lot of racing against Sonic. The only move Silver had yet to see from Sonic is the Super Peel Out.

As I said, aside from the warp portals, they believed him to be defenseless.

They know about the Warp Portals after the first time Starline uses it.

Sonic using the homing attack (Partially to get out of the snow that we see Silver to be snuck in, partially to be sneaky) isn't an indicator of him using most of his speed. Because again, assuming he does completely screws up the scaling chain.

It does mean the scaling needs to get reworked. Starline’s Tri-Core has shown to increase Speed but Travel Speed is only noted. Starline being able to react to Sonic is not interfering with the scaling, otherwise, the scaling needs a look over.

Even puts his reaction/combat speeds above Neo Metal Sonic (Who had been blitzed by Base Sonic) and above actual combatants, whereas his specialty is technology and cheap tactics.

Actually, can’t assume Neo Metal got blitzed. That puts Base Metal Sonic higher than Neo Metal. More over, Neo Metal confirms a panel later he was copying Sonic’s data. It’s plausible to assume Neo Metal allowed himself to get hit to copy Sonic’s data.

It completely goes against how his character is supposed to function, a tech-savvy sneaky fighter.

In Sonic’s world, those traits doesn’t translate to “can’t react to Sonic’s speed”. Otherwise, the whole franchise has been one big lie of Sonic vs Eggman, which is not the case.

can agree with his combat speed and travel speed scaling to Sonic with the Tri-Core, as it was stated verbatim by him to allow him to combat Sonic, Knuckles, or Tails, and gave him the ability to fight Shadow and actually gain an upper hand over him. But without it? I think the safest assumption is to either scale his reactions to his own feats, or to low-tiers speed, as he's even below Low-Tiers physically.

That would be as a physical fighter. Through Dr. Starline using the Warp Portals, the Warp Portal's gain its own feats of popping up faster than Sonic, which does fall into the scaling since the Warp Topaz is a mystical item and Mystical items are assumed above the Base cast till proven otherwise.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Oh! I completely forgot something important, I can't believe I forgot about it. But I also wanted to upgrade Super Silver, and by extension, God Tiers (Super Forms) Lifting Strength via this accepted calc. I'll edit this into the OP, but wanted to warn others that I had wanted to cover this.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think it would be needed to be address on the profiles. We need to assume we won’t be around forever, as that is a fact. It’s important to leave as much info behind as possible.

Fair. Just don't believe I've seen anything done similar in another profile, so it was a bizarre concept to me, but I'm fine with the suggestion.

There is a scan that exist of Game Super Peel Out being a confirmed Speed Amp. We had used SPO as part of our Game Speed Scaling.

Not the Sonic CD manual, right? Because that certainly doesn't confirm it if that's the case.

Just implies it allows him to reach 'turbo speeds' which allows him to zoom off in a burst of speed. Notes that it's also an 'awesome' way to zip uphill from a standing start (As that's what instant acceleration would work well for)

Aside from Sonic CD, I don't really recall any other instances of the Super Peel Out specifically. From what I've seen, it's always depicted as a method of fast acceleration (As in allows him to reach top/high speeds fast from a standstill) or simply when he starts to near top speeds.

Not really. At this point, Silver has known Sonic for a good while and has gone on a couple of adventures with him like Sonic Rivals, where that title has a lot of racing against Sonic. The only move Silver had yet to see from Sonic is the Super Peel Out.

Likely because the Super Peel Out got ditched. Sonic doesn't need a move for instant acceleration anymore. He's got Boost, and the Boost serves as a proper speed amp because it actually boosts him past the maximum speed obtainable by normal running in every game it appears in. Super Peel Out here was useful in particular, because it allows him to gain speed from a standstill (Which was useful since he would take a long time to build up speed if he simply ran on the snow).

They know about the Warp Portals after the first time Starline uses it.

Yes, which is before the first time Sonic charges at him. What does this have to do with my point, I even stated myself that aside from the Warp Portals that they knew about, he was physically defenseless. As in, if they actually laid any blows on him, he'd be folded zero-diff.

It does mean the scaling needs to get reworked. Starline’s Tri-Core has shown to increase Speed but Travel Speed is only noted. Starline being able to react to Sonic is not interfering with the scaling, otherwise, the scaling needs a look over.

So what, Starline > Eggman Mechs/Neo Metal Sonic? You would be conceding to that if you admit to Dr. Starline casually reacting to Sonic's full speed when said speed was shown to blitz Neo Metal Sonic. As well as Eggman's mech powered by Omega which was shown to be superior to most of the Low-Tiers simultaneously, yet was still blitzed by Sonic.

Assuming Starline scales to Sonic's combat speed, that would mean all the Low-Tiers are able to as they're able to physically combat characters of Starline's level.

Where is only travel-speed noted? If anything, I think it's highly suggested that the traits overall are heightened:

"This brilliant bauble will allow me to hold my own against Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles, should the need arise."

So far not seeing any implications, if anything, seems it's suggested it allows him to physically keep up with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles.

"They read your bio-signatures and react seamlessly to your actions. Act as you normally would, and the power core energy will be distributed instantly."

Seems to imply it enhances their normal capabilities overall given he said to act as they normally would in addition to reading their bio-signatures, or in other words, their capabilities/strongpoints. But hey, that's just how I interpreted it, let's read the next panel 2 panels over.

"I have no skills to enhance. It would just be a waste of resources."

Yea, this essentially confirms what I previously believed. It increases their overall strength, noted by Starline to "enhance their skills" based on the implications of his statement.

Not to mention, the speed boost allows him to not only react to a tackle from Zavok, but also Tumble:

So not only is it implied to just overall enhance individuals' strength in a field, but it's shown to (With Starline being able to react to Zavok, and Tumble.

Actually, can’t assume Neo Metal got blitzed. That puts Base Metal Sonic higher than Neo Metal. More over, Neo Metal confirms a panel later he was copying Sonic’s data. It’s plausible to assume Neo Metal allowed himself to get hit to copy Sonic’s data.

I suppose that makes sense. Though I thought Metal copied abilities by scanning, and didn't need to be harmed to copy powers.

Not to mention, maybe Metal Sonic is faster. Hear me out before you call that out as blasphemy. The next time we see Metal Sonic is after the Neo Metal Sonic arc, where it's established they've improved as suggested in my CRT. Metal could've been suited with upgrades just as he has before in order to keep up with Sonic's growing power.

Neo Metal Sonic could've simply been slower than Metal Sonic after the Neo Arc, and that wouldn't cause any contradictions. Sonic blitzed Neo, and after Neo copied his abilities, he was effortlessly able to keep up with Sonic. Though him needing to copy Sonic's bio-data seems strange given by default Metal Sonic is already supposed to be a parallel to Sonic, no? Maybe he wanted to copy some of his techniques? Not sure.

In Sonic’s world, those traits doesn’t translate to “can’t react to Sonic’s speed”. Otherwise, the whole franchise has been one big lie of Sonic vs Eggman, which is not the case.

I didn't say traits, I said how the character is meant to be portrayed and how they work within the story. It's certainly not as strong a founding as in-series scaling is, but to a certain extent, the narrative intent should matter.

That would be as a physical fighter. Through Dr. Starline using the Warp Portals, the Warp Portal's gain its own feats of popping up faster than Sonic, which does fall into the scaling since the Warp Topaz is a mystical item and Mystical items are assumed above the Base cast till proven otherwise.

That is fine with me, assuming the Warp Portal's open up faster than Sonic can move (I assume they open up with thought alone or possibly even subconsciously based on how they're treated) is actually fine with me. But without any gear like the Tri-Core, or Warp Topaz? That's what I'm against scaling to Sonic. He's clearly far physically more incompetent than even the low-tiers who currently scale below Sonic's top speeds.

So to clear things up, Warp Topaz + Tri-Core scales to Sonic's full speed, Starline without gear can scale to Low-Tiers. I think this seems very fair, do you agree?

 

[BlastX]

Just to clarify, the SPO is considered a x4 speed boost because it's comparable to the V Maximum Overdrive Attack which is a x4 speed boost and the Sonic Boost upscales from the other two.