An Unspoken/Unwritten Wiki Standard?

[LordGriffin1000]

So in this thread, according to one of our staff members (Shadowbokunohero), we and I quote


"also based Wiki standards we assume they they using the potency of their base stat unless specified or greater context is given."


When the **** was this standard established? I don't recall this being a rule and I didn't see it on our Site Rules at least from what I can see, and every verse I know (that I fully contribute to) scales characters when we can prove the character was going all out since in majority of the verses that use a type of energy system, characters can hold back and thus we require evidence that proves they were going all out for characters to scale unless one proves the character is always outputting their top levels of power. Even when characters are killing their opponent it doesn't mean their going all out. Using the logic of the supposed standard brought up, I know multiple verses that need upgrades because characters survived attacks from others much stronger than them and since they didn't die or get knocked unconscious, they scale as their was no proof the character was holding back.


Again, if this is a wiki standard, can someone please point out where this was stated? Or if it's one of those unspoken rules, it needs to be made into and actual rule because I haven't been following this wiki standard at all. Because if this is legit, it's upgrade time. Now if a character is ready to kill, and visibly trying that's ok but at that point there is proof they are going all out or at least are serious, but if nothing is shown or hinted that they are going all out and it's from a verse that has an energy system that can allow them to hold back, why would we assume their always going all out?


NOTE: This is a Staff Only thread, and this isn't about Naruto, it's about a random standard that has supposedly always been a thing but not implemented. So please don't bring up Naruto and any unrelated comments will be deleted. Also, if your just coming to complain or post jokes and snarky comments, please don't, I don't have the energy.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Powerscaling

Powerscaling refers to determining a character's power by comparing them to other characters in their series. The logic behind powerscaling works much like that of transitive relation: if A > B and B > C, then A > C. As such, if Character A is more powerful than Character B and Character B is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.

The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C."

Transitive relation only works when you have a logical chain to follow through fixed points, there is no chain if there is no fixed point, you cannot have a logical chain with variable points because the more variables you throw the less certain you can apply that chain logically.

in the context of the wiki and powerscaling our points are the characters and the feats, the feats that come from statements, on screen demonstrations or our calcs.

These points are always static, even if the context around them changes.

however we account for the variables around the feats

as noted in our page

Examples of Nonviable Powerscaling​

"

• Character A has City level durability, and Character B harmed Character A through durability negating hax. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency since they didn't use their Attack Potency to overwhelm the target's durability.
• Character A is City level, and Character B was able to survive attacks from or harm Character A. However Character A was holding back, restricting themselves, not putting their all into their attacks or was in a weakened state during the fight, then it is not safe to asses that Character B has City level AP or durability. As this would clearly indicate that the two do not have comparable power and that one is much superior to the other.
• Character A is Solar System level and FTL and Character B has bested Character A in combat. However Character B's upper limits in the past have been established to be Wall level and Subsonic. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B is Solar System level and FTL, with such occasions being declared an Outlier/Plot-Induced Stupidity for Character B.
• Character A has Human level stats physically, but using telekinesis they can destroy a Building. Character B defeated Character A in a physical fight that he wasn't using his telekinesis in. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B has Building level Attack Potency, as it would not require that level of AP to physically overpower Character A, due to him being a glass cannon."

However in absence of this information or any greater context we use our base point of reference the feat or said character.

an example

Goku has a feat of blowing up a planet >we have a calc>we scale Goku to the Calc> Goku fights someone who he punches and kicks and blasts with a kamehameha> that person survives> The Person now scales

However one thing that this chain doesn't acknowledge is that it's entirely possible that not every one of Goku's kicks and punches are delivering the same amount of force every-time, nor is it guaranteed that those kicks are producing the same energy as his kamehameha, while it's true that Goku can increase or decrease his potency on a whim we have no way of knowing if those kicks are vastly weaker, or slightly weaker or perhaps stronger than his kamehameha, without any other context or information so we use the value given to us by the feat or calculation that the chain is scaling from.

TLDR

If character A is wall level and punches character B and character B is fine we assume character B has wall level durability, we do not arbitrarily assume that Character A's punch was not punching at wall level unless other context is given.

and this is how we have treated powerscaling on the wiki for years, if anyone is still skeptical I'm more than willing to provide multiple examples of this from every single tier available on the wiki

 

[Duedate8898]

I can't really say much but point to what Boku put. It's the entire basis for much of our scaling from what I've seen, if a character smacks another, and that character is able to keep going and do the same in term, we assume they scale.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, Shadow pretty much nails it. This is simply how powerscaling is done on the wiki.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty much what Shadow just said. This is literally the basic definition of how powerscaling works, assuming no bullshit "powers fluctuate on mental levels/durability drops when guard is let down" situations happen.

 

[KLOL506]

I also find it odd to assume that durability downscales when someone holds back their punching power when no realistic basis exists for it in the first place. Like, if you have your arms and legs cut off that doesn't magically make your torso or your head weaker within that instant, durability does not drop like that IRL.

So I'm not sure why we assume the same with verses that have no logical explanations for such a drop in durability happening. Of course, we ignore it when we do have logical explanations, like say, Superman's mental state affecting his power level or the same happening with Sentry, or dropping your guard instantly nerfing your durability in Dragon Ball, but when situations arise where the character is only stated to hold their power back so that they don't kill their foes and have nothing stating their durability being affected, that's where problems arise.

It's why the "Varies" rating for current Marvel heralds like Thor makes absolutely no sense, especially with regards to durability, all in all, it's complete ******* dogshit. THERE IS NOTHING IN VERSE THAT STATES HIS DURABILITY DROPS WHEN HE STARTS TO HOLD BACK ON HIS PUNCHES. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. Yet people use this as flawed reasoning to scale other people to his High 6-C AP instead of finding better feats to powerscale from. Like, deadass don't scale other characters to Thor if he isn't in his serious Tier 3 self, not even his "holding back" key which is already scaled to a dubious High 6-C feat from Captain Marvel. It's that simple.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Powerscaling

Powerscaling refers to determining a character's power by comparing them to other characters in their series. The logic behind powerscaling works much like that of transitive relation: if A > B and B > C, then A > C. As such, if Character A is more powerful than Character B and Character B is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.

The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C."

Transitive relation only works when you have a logical chain to follow through fixed points, there is no chain if there is no fixed point, you cannot have a logical chain with variable points because the more variables you throw the less certain you can apply that chain logically.

in the context of the wiki and powerscaling our points are the characters and the feats, the feats that come from statements, on screen demonstrations or our calcs.

These points are always static, even if the context around them changes.

however we account for the variables around the feats

as noted in our page

Examples of Nonviable Powerscaling​

"

• Character A has City level durability, and Character B harmed Character A through durability negating hax. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency since they didn't use their Attack Potency to overwhelm the target's durability.
• Character A is City level, and Character B was able to survive attacks from or harm Character A. However Character A was holding back, restricting themselves, not putting their all into their attacks or was in a weakened state during the fight, then it is not safe to asses that Character B has City level AP or durability. As this would clearly indicate that the two do not have comparable power and that one is much superior to the other.
• Character A is Solar System level and FTL and Character B has bested Character A in combat. However Character B's upper limits in the past have been established to be Wall level and Subsonic. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B is Solar System level and FTL, with such occasions being declared an Outlier/Plot-Induced Stupidity for Character B.
• Character A has Human level stats physically, but using telekinesis they can destroy a Building. Character B defeated Character A in a physical fight that he wasn't using his telekinesis in. Then it is not safe to assess that Character B has Building level Attack Potency, as it would not require that level of AP to physically overpower Character A, due to him being a glass cannon."

However in absence of this information or any greater context we use our base point of reference the feat or said character.

an example

Goku has a feat of blowing up a planet >we have a calc>we scale Goku to the Calc> Goku fights someone who he punches and kicks and blasts with a kamehameha> that person survives> The Person now scales

However one thing that this chain doesn't acknowledge is that it's entirely possible that not every one of Goku's kicks and punches are delivering the same amount of force every-time, nor is it guaranteed that those kicks are producing the same energy as his kamehameha, while it's true that Goku can increase or decrease his potency on a whim we have no way of knowing if those kicks are vastly weaker, or slightly weaker or perhaps stronger than his kamehameha, without any other context or information so we use the value given to us by the feat or calculation that the chain is scaling from.

TLDR

If character A is wall level and punches character B and character B is fine we assume character B has wall level durability, we do not arbitrarily assume that Character A's punch was not punching at wall level unless other context is given.

and this is how we have treated powerscaling on the wiki for years, if anyone is still skeptical I'm more than willing to provide multiple examples of this from every single tier available on the wiki

So basically it's bull. It makes no sense to assume a character is hitting with their maximum when there is no proof.

Pretty much what Shadow just said. This is literally the basic definition of how powerscaling works, assuming no bullshit "powers fluctuate on mental levels/durability drops when guard is let down" situations happen.

But it's not. If I told you someone destroy a mountain with a punch, then got into a fight with someone and hit them and they survived, what evidence do you have that they hit that other person with that much force as they did with the mountain? Answer is, you don't. Without context, one cannot tell if someone is always striking at their maximum or holding back so why in the world do we assume by default they are going all out? Context is key but apparently it doesn't mean shit.

 

[KLOL506]

But it's not. If I told you someone destroy a mountain with a punch, then got into a fight with someone and hit them and they survived, what evidence do you have that they hit that other person with that much force as they did with the mountain? Answer is, you don't. Without context, one cannot tell if someone is always striking at their maximum or holding back so why in the world do we assume by default they are going all out? Context is key but apparently it doesn't mean shit.

Simple: Use common sense. A fight where they're crazy pissed at each other and are literally going out with the intent to kill will most certainly not be holding back to any degree whatsoever.

Especially if the Mountain level punch is shown to be utterly ******* casual.

Really the only way your argument works is if the mountain level punch is shown to take all their will and stamina to do so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have very case by case in mind, but I agree with KLOL mostly.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

what evidence do you have that they hit that other person with that much force as they did with the mountain?

Burden of proof is on you. If that someone gets punched by a mountain level fist, you are the one making assumptions that he’s holding back. This goes against the entire principle of power scaling. This is what normy capeshitters do. Please do not stoop to their level.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

don't be stinky

 

[KLOL506]

Burden of proof is on you. If that someone gets punched by a mountain level fist, you are the one making assumptions that he’s holding back. This goes against the entire principle of power scaling. This is what normy capeshitters do. Please do not stoop to their level.

Deadass hit the nail on the head man, stop destroying people that hard Jesus

But yeah I ******* agree with this.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I also find it odd to assume that durability downscales when someone holds back their punching power when no realistic basis exists for it in the first place. Like, if you have your arms and legs cut off that doesn't magically make your torso or your head weaker within that instant, durability does not drop like that IRL.

So I'm not sure why we assume the same with verses that have no logical explanations for such a drop in durability happening. Of course, we ignore it when we do have logical explanations, like say, Superman's mental state affecting his power level or the same happening with Sentry, or dropping your guard instantly nerfing your durability in Dragon Ball, but when situations arise where the character is only stated to hold their power back so that they don't kill their foes and have nothing stating their durability being affected, that's where problems arise.

It's why the "Varies" rating for current Marvel heralds like Thor makes absolutely no sense, especially with regards to durability, all in all, it's complete ******* dogshit. THERE IS NOTHING IN VERSE THAT STATES HIS DURABILITY DROPS WHEN HE STARTS TO HOLD BACK ON HIS PUNCHES. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. Yet people use this as flawed reasoning to scale other people to his High 6-C AP instead of finding better feats to powerscale from. Like, deadass don't scale other characters to Thor if he isn't in his serious Tier 3 self, not even his "holding back" key which is already scaled to a dubious High 6-C feat from Captain Marvel. It's that simple.

Preach.

I also agree to Shadow btw

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Burden of proof is on you. If that someone gets punched by a mountain level fist, you are the one making assumptions that he’s holding back. This goes against the entire principle of power scaling. This is what normy capeshitters do. Please do not stoop to their level.

But you'd be making the assumption that the character was going all out, your being hypocritical. Don't assume I'm stooping to any level, the logic being used makes no sense.

Simple: Use common sense. A fight where they're crazy pissed at each other and are literally going out with the intent to kill will most certainly not be holding back to any degree whatsoever.

Especially if the Mountain level punch is shown to be utterly ******* casual.

Really the only way your argument works is if the mountain level punch is shown to take all their will and stamina to do so.

Without context, one cant asdumpe anything, plan and simple, common sense would be to find out if the character was serious or not. Not to assume they were at their maximum.

You basically are using poor logic. The point is no context is given, we don't see how the fight played out, we don't know how casual the mountain destroying punch was, and we don't know if the character was serious or not. So again, what proof do you have that the character was going all out? None, because there is no context.

don't be stinky

Don't comment if you have nothing important to add please.

 

[KLOL506]

Without context, one cant asdumpe anything, plan and simple, common sense would be to find out if the character was serious or not. Not to assume they were at their maximum.

You basically are using poor logic. The point is no context is given, we don't see how the fight played out, we don't know how casual the mountain destroying punch was, and we don't know if the character was serious or not. So again, what proof do you have that the character was going all out? None, because there is no context.

no context

Literally shown the opponents are willing to kill and are pissed at each other?

 

[KLOL506]

Without context, one cant assume anything, plan and simple, common sense would be to find out if the character was serious or not. Not to assume they were at their maximum.

Characters are more likely to be at full power when serious and royally pissed. I guess you didn't get the memo.

 

[Duedate8898]

Griffin, you've been a member in this community for years. I don't see why only now this seems to be something you're noticing.

I won't say that default assumption of scaling two characters to one another is the right or wrong one. It honestly is a matter of opinion how we do this scaling. But it's odd that you seem to only now notice this. I feel confident in saying, as has been said above, this is how we've done power-scaling for a long while. The default assumption has been, if two people fight, they'll normally scale to one another, unless otherwise specified.

I'd understand if you're trying to argue against that mentality, cause I do think it does holds some flaws but it seems more like you're arguing against this being a standard already and that's just odd.

What's your goal here? The question of this thread has been answered and if you've only now got some characters who you think deserve some scaling from learning this, go do it.

 

[KLOL506]

Giving permission to @KnightOfSunlight as he has some contributions to make to this thread.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

But you'd be making the assumption that the character was going all out, your being hypocritical. Don't assume I'm stooping to any level, the logic being used makes no sense.


Without context, one cant asdumpe anything, plan and simple, common sense would be to find out if the character was serious or not. Not to assume they were at their maximum.

You basically are using poor logic. The point is no context is given, we don't see how the fight played out, we don't know how casual the mountain destroying punch was, and we don't know if the character was serious or not. So again, what proof do you have that the character was going all out? None, because there is no context.

So if Mike Tyson punches you in the mouf, why should I believe he meant to punch you? Baffling.

Stop using reverse burden of proof and disguising it as an argument. It’s common sense. The mere fact that a thread was made about this shows the long term mental effects of VS brainrot wiki. With this kind of argumentation it’s impossible to to reach a conclusion because you are quite literally turning a blind eye and saying “well I dunno if he meant to punch that dude”.

 

[Duedate8898]

@Zamasu_Chan

I do think you're being a bit rude here with the whole brain rot thing and the image. If this is getting annoying or heated for you, please step away and chill for a bit. Please don't do so again.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Giving permission to @KnightOfSunlight as he has some contributions to make to this thread.

Thanks KLOL.

Looking over the arguments, I'm seeing a lot of reverse burden of proof along with inconsistent or outright dubious logic from Griffin, bordering on circular reasoning.

Overall I see no reason for something like this thread to be made. Use common sense to determine when a character can scale.

 

[Confluctor]

To add to what others have said, if we go down this route, we will need to downgrade almost every verse and character to unknown and slap possibly or likely ratings on it.

Which is why I say we need to yeet tiers. Cause they stink. P&A and intelligence >>>>>

 

[Antvasima]

In general I obviously agree with that characters able to fight other characters when they genuinely exert themselves scale, but settings shared between several hundreds of different writers who all have extremely different views about character power levels, and many of whom are not even trying to at all be internally consistent in their own stories, would literally end up with absolutely all characters scaling to each other, so we at least have to try to use their own explicit feats and ongoing consistency in order to try to figure out how powerful they are instead. Unfortunately not quite all fictions remotely function in a reasonably coherent and consistent manner.

@The_Impress

What do you think about this?

 

[The_Impress]

I mean morally good characters typically tend not to use their full strength, it's not necessarily a multiple writers issue, just a common trope in fiction where characters can magically amp up 90-fold whenever they get "serious", get determined, power conservation or have something that causes them to rile up (latter's kind of a misinterpretation of a real life phenomenon).

It's not necessarily a multiple writer issue, I can recall many same-writer stories that also tend to employ these notion of scaling, critically it's what we call a "wishy washy story" since it's reliant on emotive storytelling rather than logical consistency.

At the end of the day this should just be case-by-case with no definite metric however, it genuinely depends on the tone of the verse, what the characters actually show in their behaviour and the scenario at hand.

Thor limiting himself and Daredevil limiting himself are fundamentally different when analysing context, Thor genuinely lowers his durability and attack power despite it being a massive negative to him, and many of his stories are reliant on him balancing his godly strength with his morals and battling mortal foes, in contrast Daredevil's setting is meant to be realistic by a fair degree, and him holding back his strength is moreso referred to him using non-lethal tactics.

So yeah I feel instead of rulebook thumping the best thing to do is arguing it out in CRTs themselves, hell get blogs going

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, case by case. The character's character is one of the first things to take into an account; it may be a standard assumption for a good natured pacifist boy scout to hold back in most of their fights and same with a really strong about goofy character who strongly dislikes having unfair advantages against his opponents and literally holds back because "It's more fun." But then we got monstrous villains who are like almost completely blood lusted; they have zero reason to be holding back in any of their fights.

It also depends on the tone of the verse and the situation of the narrative, most people would hold back in sparring matches to an extent, but not on the battlefield when a war is broken out.

Of course, there's also examples that may or may not to be prone to outliers, and there are things that are common yet exist to create loopholes, such as fodder characters stabbing stronger characters in vulnerable spots with sharp objects getting treated as an Attack Potency scaling or a durability feat in which one is heavily hospitalized but somehow survived. Those normally shouldn't warrant full AP or Durability scales and are commonly outliers/PIS. But those should be debated in individual content revisions and while trying to keep whataboutisms to a minimum.

There should be separated discussions instead of a oddly specific rule or even making a blog post listing some common do's and don'ts regarding powerscaling isn't a bad option either.

 

[Agnaa]

Context is king. AP is more prone to variance than Durability, but even Durability can run into some cases where case-by-case reasoning needs to be made. i.e. a character survives a 9-A punch but this heavily wounds them, a 9-B punches them and injures them but far less than the 9-A attack, the 9-B probably shouldn't scale.

I'd also say that verses with energy systems that empower their attacks are additionally far more prone to variance, and more liable to need evidence of going all out. If they use a small (but ultimately casual) amount of stat amp for a 7-A punch, they may not use any when, say, throwing a character into a wall without breaking it.

Still, more often than not, these sorts of things aren't much of a concern, and you can just go off the base stats, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So nobody actually read what I wrote because all I see is scenario with contex when my argument is that that it's impossible to just scale someone to another without context but this standard literal is saying you don't need context, if someone produced a feat, and fought another off screen and all you know is that the person survived but nothing else is known, we don't know if he casually flick him and that was the fight, we don't know if the character went all out but this standard says **** context, they scale?

Screw this shit, I'm done.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm re-opening this thread so that I can apologize to everyone that participated in it. My comment was uncalled for and I do appreciate everyone that bothered commenting even though you weren't required to. My thoughts regarding how the wikis powerscaling standards work does not excuse my behaviour as I went on to create a thread out of spite which isn't right so once again I apologize for my actions. I shouldn't be taking my frustration out on others just because of my real life problems effecting my mood and when all the did was disagree which y'all have the right to do so. Anyway, I just wanted to say that, I'll close this again.

 

[Antvasima]

So nobody actually read what I wrote because all I see is scenario with contex when my argument is that that it's impossible to just scale someone to another without context but this standard literal is saying you don't need context, if someone produced a feat, and fought another off screen and all you know is that the person survived but nothing else is known, we don't know if he casually flick him and that was the fight, we don't know if the character went all out but this standard says **** context, they scale?

Context is obviously always very important. We cannot scale without proper evidence.

I'm re-opening this thread so that I can apologize to everyone that participated in it. My comment was uncalled for and I do appreciate everyone that bothered commenting even though you weren't required to. My thoughts regarding how the wikis powerscaling standards work does not excuse my behaviour as I went on to create a thread out of spite which isn't right so once again I apologize for my actions. I shouldn't be taking my frustration out on others just because of my real life problems effecting my mood and when all the did was disagree which y'all have the right to do so. Anyway, I just wanted to say that, I'll close this again.

No problem at all. I know that you are generally trying to be as helpful and well-mannered as you are able, but none of us are perfect, definitely including myself.