Alternative canon and composite profiles?

[Antvasima]

Lord Kavpeny was technically supposed to have handled this issue, but he is extremely busy with school and work nowadays, so I suppose that I will have to try to manage it instead.

Anyway, as most of you probably know, our current policies regarding alternative canon and composite profiles are ill-defined.

We have allowed certain franchises, such as Marvel and DC, to get a considerable amount of profiles from spinoffs in cartoons, games, and movies, and also feature a few composite profiles, such as Link from The Legend of Zelda.

There is no particular difference between this and allowing, for example, manga characters the same courtecy for anime and game spinoffs that differ considerably from the originals.

However, there exists the potential problem of being swarmed by obscure non-canon characters, or ones that cannot get any valid justifications for the statistics.

Hence, I propose that we set some form of restrictions regarding notability, sufficiently extensive and divergent canon, and the ability to find and scale useful feats for the spinoff.

I also think that only extremely prominent well-known characters should be given composite profiles, and that these should only go by their own feats/exclude external power-sources, such as the Cosmic Armor Superman.

Input and analysis would be very appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, I think that we should definitely not allow random obscure alternative timeline versions of characters, as the Marvel multiverse is swarming with.

 

[LordXcano]

Bar one-off "What If" stories but allow continuous things. As an example, Ultimate Wolverine would be allowed, but Wolverine from "What If Colussus was not an X-Man" would not.

This allows for there to be an anime and manga Naruto page, but not an alternate version of Goku from one of the game's what if stories.

 

[Antvasima]

The Ultimate Universe is currently permanently scrapped. Other than Miles Morales and Ultimate Reed Richards/The Maker, who migrated to the main MU, I see no reason for featuring the characters.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with what LordXcano said, but maybe not to the extent of allowing anime/manga versions of each character (unless maybe for something like Soul eater, Astro Boy or FMA where the anime and manga are different stories).

If a character has multiple, dubious canon spin offs or different incarnations like LoZ or most Pokemon/Digimon characters, then I think a composite profile is justified.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I suppose that we can have Ultimate versions of the most prominent Marvel characters, as long as there are useful feats or statistics to scale from. I just do not think that many people would be interested in them nowadays.

 

[DontTalk]

At least for all manga and similar one person projects, i would want to stay at what the original author produced is canon, except stated otherwise. Similar for anime/cartoons, I would orientate myself on the director, or who generally is named as creator of the franchise.

With that the problem would be the multi-media franchises, that are long running and without some main producer. For those I am not sure, I lack experience with such franchises to find good criteria.


For the composite I might be in favor of not using them at all.

I only know Links composite profile and don't really think it's that necessary, since one can do profiles for all seperate Links (which we actually already have) and since it is essentially a character that doesn't exist.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far as I understand, the ACF wiki allows both alternative canon and composite profiles, and it seems to work fine for them.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Gotta keep saying this again: STAFF ONLY THREAD to those who see this.

Anyways, i thnk that having composites are fine enough. We never had problems with like say, Composite Link.

Things like what Antvasima said on allowing the most prominent Marvel characters or other such characters are okay but we definitely need feats to scale them by.

Not sure about making multiple pages as what Darkanine said. That would be kind of unnessery or something. I mean we've done that of LoZ many times but jjust unsure of how that would look for other series that have as many different incarnations or versions of beings like those from above and Digimon or whatever...

 

[Antvasima]

Here is what DarkLK said:

"Well, there is not much of composite profiles we have (ACF), so it was a big problem. Honestly, I think such cases should be considered in order Individually."

 

[Promestein]

I agree that it should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

But we should not allow irrelevant and mostly identical versions of characters flood the site.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I can agree with DarkLK's word on doing this on a case-by-case basis.

And Prom has a very good point on that we shouldn't allow pages that are either irrelevent or mostly identical versions of characters on the site here...

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that. It is just that we have allowed several alternative media versions of the main Marvel and DC characters. It seems inconsistent to have different rules for manga.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well that's a problem in and of itself, since we either have to allow other profiles that maybe as what Prom said above or just straight up don't allow them which extends to Marvel and DC.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Honestly I'd also prefer not to use composite profiles at all, but that's just me. Nice and clearcut with no confusion or arguments

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that composite profiles could bring serious scaling problems, and that they may be unnecessary, since they mirror other pages.

How about the alternative media versions of characters?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I believe that this should be treated on a case by case Analysis as well.

My overall opinion, however, is this:

Alternate Canon Storylines should be allowed if they are proeminent enough, either due to an impressive higher power of said character (A character tipically 4-C having a Low 1-C alternate canon, for instance), or by popularity.

Superman from popular and proeminent storylines such as Kingdom Come, All-Star Superman, Earth One and Red Son should be allowed, but the featless Earth 11 Genderbend Superman shouldn't.

Marvel should be treated similarly. The Ultimate Universe is relevant enough to warrant such alternate canon profiles, and so are the Marvel Noir and Marvel 1604 Veres. However, random one-shot What If storylines shouldn't be accepted.

Typically, if the alternate canon has enough material to be considered it's own franchise, or is popular or aclaimed enough, it should be allowed, but random "Elseworld" storylines shouldn't be.

There is also the Issue of what is and what isn't canon. In Final Crisis, Flashpoint, Convergence and Multiversity, Alternate universe versions of various characters appear, and Multiversity goes as far as to list the 52 Earths.

TV and Cinematic Universe Adaptations of such characters, such as the MCU, the DCAU, or the CW DC Multiverse (Dubbed Arrowverse by fans) should be considered their own Verses, and thus don't influence the larger comics.

In regards to Anime and Manga Verses, the only series where I can think this could be a problem is Dragon Ball, and for they a propose the following:

Allow for proeminent alternate canon original characters (Demigra, Towa and Mira, GT and Movie characters), but do not allow for infinite repeat versions of Canon Characters (A Xenoverse Goku profile, or a Shin Budokai Goku profile would both be pointless).

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think what Matt said is reasonable.

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with what Matt has said. Along with Dark's remark that this should be evaluated on an individual, case by case basis.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Composite profiles are used for franchises where quantifiable feats are scarce. I agree that it's probably easier to purge them entirely, but it may not be the best option for certain franchises. If we do allow it, it's probably best to limit it to franchises that actually need it (such as VN's and certain RPGs). Then enforcing powerscaling rules not unlike DC and Marvel for the relevant franchises where necessary, whilst establishing canonical priorities. I

I must repeat, though I do think this is probably the best idea (due to its greater ease for gaining statistics in regards to certain franchises), Aizen's suggestion is admittedly much more practical and less time consuming.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Matt, as well.

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree with Matt

 

[The_Everlasting]

I, like several others, am in agreement with Matt.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Basically just like the others above, i agree with Matt's idea of this here.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Matthew seems to make sense. However, I have been told that there are anime and manga series that differ significantly in power and storyline.

I also agree with DarkLK about treating composite profiles on a case-by-case basis.

However, given that explaining the specifics would take too much room for the regular Editing Rules page, somebody would have to write a specific explanation page regarding this issue, which we could link to there.

I could check it over, and possibly make adjustments, afterwards.

 

[Antvasima]

Iustitia Prime gave me a note regarding that we should mention that all such characters require disambiguation pages.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I guess that makes sense to do that, yeah,

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, does this mean we can bring back Strange Visitor Superman?

 

[Antvasima]

It is a one-shot character, so it is not remotely prominent enough.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is a one-shot character, so it is not remotely prominent enough.

Well, kinda, but it's still immensely more powerful than all other versions of Superman, minus Thought Robot.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(American_Alien)

Should we keep this, though?

I mean, it is kinda only notable in how weak he is.

 

[Antvasima]

No, I do not think that it is notable enough. You can remove the profile.

Btw: Would you be willing to help out with writing an explanation page for our rules regarding alternative canon and composite profiles?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I could possibly try.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I can look it over for adjustments afterwards, and we could ask for further input in this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://misfitmunky.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ super3.jpg

I will probably use this pic to illustrate the page.

'Alternate Canon / Composite Profiles' should work as a name.

 

[Antvasima]

"Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles" should be fine as a name, and I like the picture.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Man that pic is not appearing for me on my screen. -.-;

Hmm yeah i'd like to see Matt try this out on making the page. And i guess Alt. Canon and Composite Profiles can be a thing i suppose, if a bit wordy. This will be a disambig. page, yes?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

btw, I can't do it right now, but I'll try making it on this Sunday.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew Okay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Staff only, DRB. We get you weren't doing anything wrong in the slightest, but rules are rules.