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I was gonna say Kars for J-man's reasons, but I guess this is over
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Altair vs Kars
- Thread starter Sir_Ovens
- Start date
- Status
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Wait, this is done? who won?or is it inconclusive?
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It is inconclusive
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Vote count?
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votes are 7-7 I think but idk if you count the ones that used debunked reasons.
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Obviously exclude "plot" vote.
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Then Kars would be winning with a 7-2 or 3 lead
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Well I disagree vehemently with pure Acausality being able to make you immune/resistant to Plot Manipulation. They should be different powers.
If Kars has other justifications, I'm fine with that though.
If Kars has other justifications, I'm fine with that though.
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I think Kars resisting Beyond's 2-A plot manipulation was also apart of the argument
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I keep hearing about Beyond, but I don't see anything about it on Kars' profile. Is that profile or information even available on the wiki?
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That would probably be best. If he does have that kind of immense resistance, then he definitely wins here.
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The only info I see on Beyond says that it depends on Dio and has *limited combat usage unlike Altair who uses hers to kill people and does so much more potently. To quote J-Man "Outline origin would work." after that Altair destroys 8-C Kars or erases the universe to make sure he doesn't come back.
Edit: word changed to be more accurate
Edit: word changed to be more accurate
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To add to it, Beyond works "as long as Dio believes in it" meaning it depends on Dio's confidence. Every time Dio meets his match and is on the backfoot it's support turns shaky, and Kars being low 2-C himself means Beyond's support will be spotty regardless of Beyond's interaction with Kars.
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This is the impression of Beyond that is created on me from my reading on the story element, when the opponent has more aces in the hole than Dio himself to bring him down enough Beyond stops working until he either finds a way back up or is gone forever.
That's why Dio can't hold his own against Kars, it can not be smooth sailing for Dio to beat Kars with his limited capabilities and intuition. After all Beyond only alters the story to help Dio, but it doesn't show him a direct path to victory nor delete plot elements the way Holopsicon did. Otherwise Dio would be 2-A himself.
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The wiki pages fail to create that impression. They are both low 2-C with various different capabilities.Yobobojojo said:
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Beyond "having no combat usage" from what J-man said and what iapitus the impaler quoted from the novel, is actually wrong and Beyond can actually does a lot of things that are useful in combat like grants its user extreme luck which is what it did for Tsukumojuku(and Jorge) who was a detective who also had a Beyond(but it went to Jorge) and it always allowed him to come off on top during his whole detective career(same with Jorge throughout the novel),can cause the opponent to makes mistake, it shifts the rules of the world to fit the user's genre,allows for the user to create the narrative flow, changes the user's fate which can be used to prevent death and "overcome your fate" as it did with Jorge,Dio, and Tsukumojuku but this is all if the user believes in it and in Dio's case he did.Beyond's plot and fate manipulation is something that can be used in combat and by "in" i mean it dictates the fight itself essentially and Kars fought Dio who had this,so yea Kars resist Plot and Fate manipulation.
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@Dienomite22 Not according to this wiki, Beyond cannot affect Dio's opponents, otherwise Dio would be on 2-A level.
If the opposing side likes to assume Beyond is on 2-C level then it needs to be proven that Beyond shares the capabilities Holopsicon has, in affecting Dio's opponents, which would imply that Beyond is entirely combat applicable and/or it needs to be proven that Kars can stop or reverse Plot Manipulation on Holopsicon's level according to his own merit. Sadly this is not the case according to this wiki since Beyond is stated to be dependent on Dio's mood.
So far according to the wiki and J-Man "Outline origin would work" meaning Altair has a very clear path to victory unless the facts are changed.
If the opposing side likes to assume Beyond is on 2-C level then it needs to be proven that Beyond shares the capabilities Holopsicon has, in affecting Dio's opponents, which would imply that Beyond is entirely combat applicable and/or it needs to be proven that Kars can stop or reverse Plot Manipulation on Holopsicon's level according to his own merit. Sadly this is not the case according to this wiki since Beyond is stated to be dependent on Dio's mood.
So far according to the wiki and J-Man "Outline origin would work" meaning Altair has a very clear path to victory unless the facts are changed.
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@Airshark79 This wiki doesn't have all of the abilities for Beyond listed and in the novel Tsukumojuku (probably the most knowledgeble Beyond user) says that Beyond can causes everything to work in the users favor and grant them luck and with people the Beyond user is against Beyond can cause them to make mistakes such as.
Kar's fought Dio who had a Beyond which controlled the whole narriative in Dio's favor,gave him luck,let's him control the narrative flow, and shifts the genre to fit Dio's needs(although I doubt that will be anything different than normal).Of course Kars resist Plot and Fate manipulation.Also,Beyond is beyond 2-C (no pun intended).
But then you forgot to add the part in which he said another Kars would have came and adapted to Outline Origin.
Anyways will reply to replies tomarrow.
Kar's fought Dio who had a Beyond which controlled the whole narriative in Dio's favor,gave him luck,let's him control the narrative flow, and shifts the genre to fit Dio's needs(although I doubt that will be anything different than normal).Of course Kars resist Plot and Fate manipulation.Also,Beyond is beyond 2-C (no pun intended).
But then you forgot to add the part in which he said another Kars would have came and adapted to Outline Origin.
Anyways will reply to replies tomarrow.
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@Dienomite22
https://i.imgur.com/IRwJ5LH.png
According to the wiki it doesn't work, Altair deletes the root universe and create a separate root and Altair can erase or existence exchange type 3 immortality Kars with ease.
I'm not taking the Tsukumojuku statements. Feel free to work on your wiki page, as it stands Altair takes this.
https://i.imgur.com/IRwJ5LH.png
According to the wiki it doesn't work, Altair deletes the root universe and create a separate root and Altair can erase or existence exchange type 3 immortality Kars with ease.
I'm not taking the Tsukumojuku statements. Feel free to work on your wiki page, as it stands Altair takes this.
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I believe that we are supposed to use the abilities on the profiled themselves. If it isnt there, then it needs to be added for this match to be valid.
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