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Alright, time to get this going: Aigis VS. 2B.

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Gargoyle One said:
ZephyrosOmega said:
Second, you're also assuming a verdict based on what Aigis does. do i need to make them both bloodlusted to make things "fairer"?
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2B Stomps if bloodlusted as she just flies away and spams from space
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no, if bloodlusted, Aigis deathspams and almightyspams in the time it takes for her to fly away.
 
Incorrect, Pods are actually a part of the flights systems mainframe once attached

Where? EMP=/=Electricity
 
2B Stomps if bloodlusted as she just flies away and spams from space
no, if bloodlusted, Aigis deathspams and almightyspams in the time it takes for her to fly away.

Despite 2B being Kilometers out of her range from the start.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Gargoyle. remind me of the SBA range again, if you will.
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Max range of both fighters

2Bs kilometers while Aigis is 100s of meters
 
This of course is only with the flight unit. Otherwise, their range is almost dead-even, and aigis' is higher with spells. and also, you left out "If extreme advantages are generated via this distance to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread."

Of course, your arguments for Non-bloodlusted have been debunked anyway, and this isn't a bloodlusted match.
 
We have no reason to assume they won't either, especially if they have no "character" or personality to go off of. Saying "what's the proof she'll do it first" is just as a clever way to throw off a debate. We know Aigis is a combat weapon designed to kill Shadows. She would be efficient in killing her targets, and would then use the best methods possible as soon as possible. Also known as, how you kill shadows in Persona.

When a character has no typical opening move, you can just bs and saying "how do you know they'd lead with that" can arbitrarily applied to any one of their moves, meaning there can't even be a fair debate. Whether it's their best or not is irrelevant in a Vacuum. This argument only works if you have a reason to believe that the character wouldn't do it— like Madara with his Perfect Susanoo. He has made it evident that he likes to toy with his weaker opponents, so if he fought the Akatsuki with no information about them, there's no reason for him to use it first thing.

With Aigis, a robot with a blank slate in terms of combat (at best for your case, considering her being a combat shadow killing machine makes it likely for her to do the smart thing), you can't get anywhere saying "how do you know she'll do x first?" Yeah, I got what you said, but that argument is faulty because it tries to compare characters with similar traits but different behaviors as if those traits make their behaviors analogous. Just because X character would hold back, doesn't mean Y character would.

It's a moot point. "There's no reason why she would" and "there's no reason why she wouldn't".

An example of why 2B would of wouldn't use her mech is— if she has to run away to the bunker to get it, she'll likely not bother, given the fact that she hasn't done that sort of thing before when fighting enemies. If it's right in front of her, she has no reason not to, since it's likely to help her even better than harm her in this fight.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
This of course is only with the flight unit. Otherwise, their range is almost dead-even, and aigis' is higher with spells. and also, you left out "If extreme advantages are generated via this distance to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread."

Of course, your arguments for Non-bloodlusted have been debunked anyway, and this isn't a bloodlusted match.
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You didn't change said range, thus 2B has said advantage, plus the unit is part of her standard equipment

How were they debunked exactly? And aren't you the OP?
 
He also voted for 2B, make sure to count that

Anyway, 2B for his reasons since mine got debunked (Not really)
 
Wasn't that mystic script that appears after a pod is used evidence of magic? That and this "MP" thing that appears on the loading screen— if that's false, then that's fine. Even still, 2B can one shot even with a pod blast, in addition to the laser beams that can bounce off of things in an unpredictable manner, along with bombs, missiles... Sure, Aigis can switch persona on the fly, but is there a persona that reflects gun or pierce or something? If not, because these attacks aren't physical, I don't see how the blasts would be cancelled out.

But, yeah, Aigis has no reason to not use Mudo or Hama, and we can't rule it out, since we don't know what she leads with. Saying "how do you know she'll lead with it" doesn't mean much, if anything it only says that her victory via that method is one of the possibilities of the fight.
 
In fact, her base persona completely nullifies pierce damage. and Aliliat allows her to reflect it to the attacker.
 
Amexim said:
Wasn't that mystic script that appears after a pod is used evidence of magic? That and this "MP" thing that appears on the loading screen— if that's false, then that's fine. Even still, 2B can one shot even with a pod blast, in addition to the laser beams that can bounce off of things in an unpredictable manner, along with bombs, missiles... Sure, Aigis can switch persona on the fly, but is there a persona that reflects gun or pierce or something? If not, because these attacks aren't physical, I don't see how the blasts would be cancelled out.
But, yeah, Aigis has no reason to not use Mudo or Hama, and we can't rule it out, since we don't know what she leads with. Saying "how do you know she'll lead with it" doesn't mean much, if anything it only says that her victory via that method is one of the possibilities of the fight.
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Yes, there are Persona that can reflect gun and pierce damage, for exemple Alilat

Guns and Pierce attacks are considered physical attacks in Persona 3
 
Shozo Irie said:
Amexim said:
Wasn't that mystic script that appears after a pod is used evidence of magic? That and this "MP" thing that appears on the loading screen— if that's false, then that's fine. Even still, 2B can one shot even with a pod blast, in addition to the laser beams that can bounce off of things in an unpredictable manner, along with bombs, missiles... Sure, Aigis can switch persona on the fly, but is there a persona that reflects gun or pierce or something? If not, because these attacks aren't physical, I don't see how the blasts would be cancelled out.
But, yeah, Aigis has no reason to not use Mudo or Hama, and we can't rule it out, since we don't know what she leads with. Saying "how do you know she'll lead with it" doesn't mean much, if anything it only says that her victory via that method is one of the possibilities of the fight.
Click to expand...
Yes, there are Persona that can reflect gun and pierce damage, for exemple Alilat
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And Pallas Athena. yknow, her signature persona
 
Most of 2B's votes are faulty for either assuming 2B can dodge Hama/Mudo, or neglecting to take into account Aigis' damage reflection, or both.
 
I know, but I wanted to give an exemple of a Persona that can also reflect slash and strike damage. So any kind of physical will be reflected on 2B. Which is one of the reasons that I think Aigis can win this fight
 
Edwellken said:
Most of 2B's votes are faulty for either assuming 2B can dodge Hama/Mudo, or neglecting to take into account Aigis' damage reflection, or both.
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Correct. Should i remove them? i think that's what you're supposed to do when votes are debunked
 
I see the OP is awfully biased against 2B here. No, the votes aren't debunked.

In a majority victory, who wins the most times? The one that has to carefully choose which strategy leads to victory, or the one that with any attack can win?
 
Other than that i think the only vote is Gargoyle's, simply because AP.. which aigis still beats out thanks to reasons above but whatever
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I see the OP is awfully biased against 2B here. No, the votes aren't debunked.
In a majority victory, who wins the most times? The one that has to carefully choose which strategy leads to victory, or the one that with any attack can win?
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well there's a way to try and destabilize someone's argument. No. Nier: Automata is my favorite game of all-time, and 2B is one of my favorite characters in it. and it doesn't matter if "any attack can win" if they get reflected back to her or aigis just insta-deaths or almightys.
 
When using characters for which we don't know with what she starts, we analyze each scenario as a possibility. The fact that you guys have to lay out specific plans that may or may not be considered by the character, shows how much is stacked against them. 2B outranges, can keep coming back and one-shot with a single attack (actual Gargoyle's reasons, not simply AP). She wins the majority of the time.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
When using characters for which we don't know with what she starts, we analyze each scenario as a possibility. The fact that you guys have to lay out specific plans that may or may not be considered by the character, shows how much is stacked against them. 2B outranges, can keep coming back and one-shot with a single attack (actual Gargoyle's reasons, not simply AP). She wins the majority of the time.
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Reread the thread. Aigis needs to kill 2B once and she wins. also she disconnected herself in canon anyway soooo...

And it's not "laying out specific plans". it's "aigis spams instant death". she doesn't outrange, and she never in-canon or in-character uses the flight unit for a small opponent. it's ALWAYS used for either swarms of enemies or massive enemies like the engels. So no. she doesn't win the majority of the time.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I see the OP is awfully biased against 2B here. No, the votes aren't debunked.
In a majority victory, who wins the most times? The one that has to carefully choose which strategy leads to victory, or the one that with any attack can win?
Click to expand...
I don't think that changing Personas (which is a free action in the games) should be considered has "to carefully chose an strategy to lead to victory". If Aigis begins with Athena, then the gun and Pierce damage is nulled, then the moment she sees 2B with her Katana changing to Alilat is a no-brainer action
 
@Shozo

She needs to specifically start with that. So yes, she has to be careful to not get one-shotted. That's one scenario, let's see what else there is.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
And it's not "laying out specific plans". it's "aigis spams instant death". she doesn't outrange, and she never in-canon or in-character uses the flight unit for a small opponent. it's ALWAYS used for either swarms of enemies or massive enemies like the engels. So no. she doesn't win the majority of the time.
Click to expand...
But it is a possibility. Another scenario to consider. Next.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Other than that i think the only vote is Gargoyle's, simply because AP.. which aigis still beats out thanks to reasons above but whatever
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Incorrect

Aigis's amps are what allowed her to defeat Erebus who is 100 megatons vs 2Bs 493 megatons

None of them are debunked.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
@Shozo
She needs to specifically start with that. So yes, she has to be careful to not get one-shotted. That's one scenario, let's see what else there is.
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Aigis Insta-deaths GG

Aigis Insta-almighties GG

Aigis reflects everything GG

Aigis flies out of 2B's melee range and bombards her with anything until she dies GG

Aigis freezes 2B, making her helpless GG

I should note that even IF 2B kills Aigis, she has personas allowing her to Resurrect anyway. She can absorb 2B's attacks to heal herself, nullify them completely, et cetera. need i say more?
 
2B has every tool she needs to one shot Aigis and then some

Your point?

Also freezing her is useless as she can break out.

Reflect is useless because of AP

2B has greater range making Aigis flying useless

You were saying?
 
Gargoyle One said:
2B has every tool she needs to one shot Aigis and then some
Your point?
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter because everything she has gets countered. YOUR point?
 
Gargoyle One said:
2B has every tool she needs to one shot Aigis and then some

Your point?

Also freezing her is useless as she can break out.

Reflect is useless because of AP

2B has greater range making Aigis flying useless

You were saying?
Click to expand...
I don't see your point :P
 
>reflecting damage is useless because of AP, even though it's through hax and not defense

yeah ok

2B's range is only greater through her flight unit, which she wouldn't use in character anyway.
 
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