Alive Madara Revision

[RisingIons]

Madara while he was alive had wood style. We know this because he immediately implanted a piece of Hashirama’s body into himself after using Izanagi to revive himself. Furthermore, we know Uchiha DNA + Senju DNA (or ashura descendant + indra's) = rinnegan, and Madara didn’t unlock the rinnegan until he was very late in age. Hashirama co-signs this theory, hypothesizing Madara performed this experiment while he was alive.

We also know it happened when he was alive because of other characters in the series who achieved wood style in the same manner, such as Danzo, Yamato, and Obito, though Madara’s chakra was on an entirely different scale. It doesn’t make sense any other way for him to just be revived with a modified body and can suddenly replicate Hashirama’s entire arsenal with no practice.

Databook quote:
柱問から奪った肉を自らに移植し、千手の力を手に入れたのだ。

By transplanting the flesh that he snatched away from Hashirama into (his own body), Madara obtained the power of the Senju.

He can perform:
Wood Dragon
Deep Forest Emergence
Deep Forest Bloom
Wood Clones

Since he can perform those techniques, his tier reasoning should be edited to match Hashirama’s. Hashirama is at least High 6-C with Wood Style, as his Wood Dragon could restrain Kurama. Madara now has this technique, plus chakra on par with Hashirama’s.

He should also have healing, self-sustenance (type 2), regeneration (low-mid), chakra absorption via wood dragon, wood manipulation.

(Zetsu page translation (black box): For him, meals and excretion are not necessary, if he eats the deceased, that chakra becomes his own nourishment.)

(Hashirama page translation, third box:
[Healing Ability]

Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability. Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures. His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability. To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses this power.)

The next page says:
[Hashirama’s sought-after cells… in Madara… in Orochimaru]

Hashirama’s artificial body of Madara’s creation

The unparalleled recovery ability of Hashirama’s body could even exhibit that ability in the bodies of others. Madara lived on by transplanting into a wound Hashirama’s cells that he obtained in the Battle of the Valley of the End. In addition, by using the Demonic Statue as a catalyst, he cultivated living cells to create an artificial body of Hashirama. Even the critically wounded Obito healed his injuries by transplanting half of an artificial body.

Hashirama’s face appears wherever his cells have been implanted. The cells are alive, but have no awareness.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

We have no reason to give him a Pre-Hashirama Fight key, because we have seen little of that Madara.
We have no reason to give him a Post-Hashirama Fight key, because we have only seen Post-Hashirama Fight Madara when he was old and nearing death.

Everything here is already in his Revived key, and that's good enough.

 

[RisingIons]

Everything here is already in his Revived key, and that's good enough.

Except that’s wrong because he clearly has these abilities while alive, which should be documented.

His revived key would be the same as his living key, with the addition of rinnegan abilities and Hashirama’s sage mode, plus whatever other tricks he had.

It’s extremely simple.

 

[PrinceofPein]

disagree full of head canons

 

[PrinceofPein]

The alive madara we see after the fight was an old one that cannot live ir move without been connected to the gedo mazu but u want to give him abilities he never displayed cause you feel like he has it? lmao
I mean kabuto even stated he upgraded madara and the revived madara is way above his prime

 

[RisingIons]

The alive madara we see after the fight was an old one that cannot live ir move without been connected to the gedo mazu but u want to give him abilities he never displayed cause you feel like he has it? lmao
I mean kabuto even stated he upgraded madara and the revived madara is way above his prime

I just showed Obito getting an inferior version of Hashirama’s cells from Zetsu and awakening wood style in weeks/months/whatever, literally every living ninja who could use wood release with Hashirama’s cells getting wood style in their natural life

But Madara gets Hashirama’s cells straight from the man and is alive for decades and doesn’t have it?

“Way above his prime” Yes, having Hashirama’s cells PLUS having the rinnegan at the same age he fought Hashirama, not as an old man.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I just showed Obito getting an inferior version of Hashirama’s cells from Zetsu and awakening wood style in weeks/months/whatever, literally every living ninja with Hashirama’s cells getting wood style in their natural life

But Madara gets Hashirama’s cells straight from the man and is alive for decades and doesn’t have it?

“Way above his prime” Yes, having Hashirama’s cells PLUS having the rinnegan at the same age he fought Hashirama, not as an old man.

you can be a clown for all i care, but in this wiki if you dont show an ability you dont have it, or do u see naruto with wood release?
or the thousands of children that oroxhimaru implanted with hashirama cells? did you see them with it? or naruto should get wood release too?

Like i said the old madara did nto show any ability to use wood release he is not getting it.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

IIRC Naruto CRTs were to be limited

Post in thread 'Rule Violations Reports (New forum)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/rule-violations-reports-new-forum.107529/post-3917568

 

[Damage3245]

We have no reason to give him a Pre-Hashirama Fight key, because we have seen little of that Madara.
We have no reason to give him a Post-Hashirama Fight key, because we have only seen Post-Hashirama Fight Madara when he was old and nearing death.

Everything here is already in his Revived key, and that's good enough.

I agree with this.

 

[RisingIons]

.

Edos are revived with abilities from their past. Madara displayed abilities, you’re making false equivalencies.

I agree with this.

But it’s okay to give Itachi a “healthy” key??? This site picks and chooses when to make sense. This fan base literally took abilities from Itachi’s regular and edo key and called it “healthy” for the sake of Itachi being used at full powers in vs matches.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The only thing his Healthy key gives him is higher stats. That's a false equivalence.

 

[RisingIons]

The only thing his Healthy key gives him is higher stats. That's a false equivalence.

All it does is copy his edo tensei tier* and his normal key abilities* to create a character that we were never directly exposed to*

Fixed.
Which is even more than what I’m suggesting. Madara already has the tier that he would get from wood style, wood style just adds an extra reason, and he gets new abilities. His revived key can get reduced in abilities. Not at all a false equivalence this is basically the same edit.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

We have never seen Madara after the fight with Hashirama outside of his interactions with Obito, but at that point, he was already far past his prime.

Likewise, we have never seen Madara use of these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.
Likewise, likewise, we have no definitive proof that Madara ever used these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.
Likewise, likewise, likewise, we have no definitive proof that Madara could/knew how to use these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.

It doesn’t make sense any other way for him to just be revived with a modified body and can suddenly replicate Hashirama’s entire arsenal with no practice.

Read this over very carefully.
Along with that, he also just knew Hashirama. They were really close—like brothers, akin to Naruto and Sasuke. He also engaged in battle with him a lot.

 

[RisingIons]

Likewise, we have never seen Madara use of these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.
Likewise, likewise, we have no definitive proof that Madara ever used these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.
Likewise, likewise, likewise, we have no definitive proof that Madara could/knew how to use these abilities post-Hashirama Fight.

-Edo brings you back to the point you were at before your death, discarding any illnesses. Hence why Itachi doesn’t come back near-blind or with a disease. This is where Kabuto’s modifications (tying into the point at the bottom) come in, giving Madara everything he already had in life at his prime physical condition.

Madara literally asks Kabuto if he knows anything about his prime and he responds with no, requesting a demonstration. Kabuto’s theory (which he states is a shared theory among him and Orochimaru) was that the rinnegan was the final progression of the sharingan. How he thought he accomplished anything is beyond me when Madara already had Hashirama’s cells and awakened the rinnegan as a result.

Read this over very carefully.
Along with that, he also just knew Hashirama. They were really close—like brothers, akin to Naruto and Sasuke. He also engaged in battle with him a lot.

He has as much reason to use it in the decades of his life after the Hashirama fight versus using it as soon as he gets revived. Obito was using wood style in days after his transplant.

Or to put it simply, the databook which encompasses the entire war arc states he awakened Hashirama’s powers after transplanting his cells.

 

[Teezar]

literally every living ninja with Hashirama’s cells getting wood style in their natural life.

This isn't true only characters who possess sharingan have been shown to be able to use wood style after being in contact with hashirama cells and captain Yamato due to one reason or another. I'm not sure all ninjas can use wood style just because of hashirama cells.

 

[RisingIons]

This isn't true only characters who possess sharingan have been shown to be able to use wood style after being in contact with hashirama cells and captain Yamato due to one reason or another. I'm not sure all ninjas can use wood style just because of hashirama cells.

Yeah I should edit that before people cherry-pick the entire argument..

All ninja who can use wood style that are not Hashirama awakened their abilities in their natural life time. ****

Danzo can use Hashirama’s cells for wood style, and Yamato, both who are non-uchiha.

 

[KingTempest]

Edos are revived with abilities from their past. Madara displayed abilities, you’re making false equivalencies.

You mean the abilities that Kabuto explicitly gave him?

"No... this was added by a subordinate's comrade, completely by chance. There apparently was a fellow who thought a lot like me."
Subordinate = Obito
Subordinate's Comrade = Obito

He did not have that in his lifetime of fighting.

But it’s okay to give Itachi a “healthy” key??? This site picks and chooses when to make sense. This fan base literally took abilities from Itachi’s regular and edo key and called it “healthy” for the sake of Itachi being used at full powers in vs matches.

Because healthy Itachi has been in several fights than his sick self, more stamina, stronger than his Edo self which is far stronger than his sick self, can spam techniques more, faster, etc.

This Madara took a bite out of Hashirama and stuck it on his chest, never showing any jutsu with it, then lived and died.
If Minato can learn KCM while being dead, then Madara can learn wood style.

Yeah I should edit that before people cherry-pick the entire argument..

All ninja who can use wood style that are not Hashirama awakened their abilities in their natural life time. ****

Danzo can use Hashirama’s cells for wood style, and Yamato, both who are non-uchiha.

Naruto? I don't see no wood style from him.

 

[Teezar]

All ninja who can use wood style that are not Hashirama awakened their abilities in their natural life time. ****

Danzo can use Hashirama’s cells for wood style, and Yamato, both who are non-uchiha.

Edo madara used wood style.

Yeah I said so above

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This is where Kabuto’s modifications (tying into the point at the bottom) come in, giving Madara everything he already had in life at his prime physical condition.

Madara literally asks Kabuto if he knows anything about his prime and he responds with no, requesting a demonstration.

 

[RisingIons]

You mean the abilities that Kabuto explicitly gave him?

"No... this was added by a subordinate's comrade, completely by chance. There apparently was a fellow who thought a lot like me."
Subordinate = Obito
Subordinate's Comrade = Obito

He did not have that in his lifetime of fighting.

The databook itself says “Hashirama’s face appears wherever his cells have been implanted. The cells are alive, but have no awareness.”

Which would imply only direct pieces of Hashirama facilitate the process, not Zetsu’s body which was used on Obito and (likely, don’t remember) Naruto. Yamato is unknown.

One- Kabuto states Madara was beyond his prime now. Madara asks if he knows about his prime, Kabuto replies no and asks for a demonstration. Kabuto’s very own admission begs the question of how he can bring Madara past something he has no knowledge of.

Two- “Just as I had guessed. What awaits when you progress beyond the sharingan is the rinnegan”

Which Madara again refutes, saying he awakened those eyes before his death, and again questions what Kabuto did to his body, and Kabuto repeats the same statement about bringing him past his prime, which Madara immediately goes to thinking he deciphered the uchiha stone tablet, which explains the progression.

Kabuto goes on to say the sharingan progression was a theory Orochimaru and himself had for many years, and Madara was proving that theory true. Kabuto says “the sage of the six paths…I can now touch a fragment of that power with this power I’ve created”, which Madara again refutes, saying he didn’t create anything.

I get the scan you’re showing me exists, but that’s blatantly wrong. Kabuto directly gave Sasuke Hashirama’s cells and he awakened the rinnegan and nothing else (based on him already being an Indra reincarnation + Hagoromo chakra + Hashirama’s cells) For that to be true, Madara can’t have already awakened the rinnegan before Kabuto got to him. He can’t implant jutsu.

If Minato can learn KCM while being dead, then Madara can learn wood style.

It’s far more likely Madara in his remaining decades of life, learned wood style, than in death. Obito through Zetsu’s body which is inferior to pure hashirama meat was practicing wood style in days. Additionally the databook which post-dates the entire war arc says he awakened Hashirama’s powers after transplanting it on himself.

Naruto? I don't see no wood style from him.

“All ninja who can use wood style that are not Hashirama awakened their abilities in their natural life time.”

I thank you for giving actual content to respond to though regardless of the outcome.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But seriously, Madara just having implanted Hashirama's flesh into himself is not enough evidence to support the idea that he had Wood Style nor have we seen him use it, nor has he ever stated he can. Madara used his flesh to cultivate the Zetsu using the Gedo Statue.

Then, everyone—from Obito, to Danzo, to Yamato—received parts of the Zetsu, allowing them to use Wood Style.

Madara simply inserted Hashirama's flesh into his wound, with his aiming being to combine the powers of the Senju and the Uchiha to create the Rinnegan. Everybody else had a part of the Zetsu meshed into their own bodies—with Orochimaru, he literally became a Zetsu.

Madara knowing how to use Wood Style as an Edotensei means nothing when:

• Kabuto modified his body—could have easily given him the knowledge required to use the three techniques that he did.
• Madara and Hashirama were close to one another and had experienced battle with each other numerous times.
• Kabuto modified his body—could have easily given him the knowledge required to use the three techniques that he did.

 

[Kin201]

No. Kabuto gave Madara that face. He didn't have it when he was alive.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm ignoring everything else because you didn't refute my point. I apologize if it sounds rude, it's not my intent, I'm just saying that you didn't argue against my point.
Except this

I get the scan you’re showing me exists, but that’s blatantly wrong. Kabuto directly gave Sasuke Hashirama’s cells and he awakened the rinnegan and nothing else (based on him already being an Indra reincarnation + Hagoromo chakra + Hashirama’s cells) For that to be true, Madara can’t have already awakened the rinnegan before Kabuto got to him. He can’t implant jutsu.

The site currently accepts Hagoromo giving Sasuke the rinnegan, and it wasn't because of his cells or reincarnation.

I thank you for giving actual content to respond to though regardless of the outcome.

Np, thanks for listening to my arguments

 

[PrinceofPein]

Danzo can use Hashirama’s cells for wood style, and Yamato, both who are non-uchiha.

what about the thousands of kids that could not use it after orochimaru gave them the cells? i mean what about them?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Kabuto directly gave Sasuke Hashirama’s cells and he awakened the rinnegan and nothing else (based on him already being an Indra reincarnation + Hagoromo chakra + Hashirama’s cells) For that to be true, Madara can’t have already awakened the rinnegan before Kabuto got to him. He can’t implant jutsu.

oh i see you are one of those headwards who thinks sasuke awakened the rinnegans cause of kabuto giving him hashirama cells?

The site currently accepts Hagoromo giving Sasuke the rinnegan, and it wasn't because of his cells or reincarnation.

nit just the site, the databooks too

 

[RisingIons]

I'm ignoring everything else because you didn't refute my point. I apologize if it sounds rude, it's not my intent, I'm just saying that you didn't argue against my point.
Except this

The site currently accepts Hagoromo giving Sasuke the rinnegan, and it wasn't because of his cells or reincarnation.

Np, thanks for listening to my arguments

It did refute your point. Kabuto wasn’t talking about Hashirama’s cells, he was talking about the rinnegan and Madara kept calling him out on his BS. As I’ve stated, Madara already put Hashirama’s cells in his body, the databook he got “senju powers” from this transplant, and it also says Hashirama’s face appears wherever his cells are transplanted. He could mean Hashirama's cells or the rinnegan, but we have first-hand accounts from Madara, Hagoromo himself, and the databook proving overwhelmingly otherwise against the cryptic statement from a single panel. Indra's transmigration in Madara was already, it has since been Sasuke. Post-death gene editing wouldn't give Madara the rinnegan, and he already has hashirama's cells.

And I know, I’m saying the theory that Kabuto did it doesn’t hold up with anyone else he’s experimented on.

 

[RisingIons]

oh i see you are one of those headwards who thinks sasuke awakened the rinnegans cause of kabuto giving him hashirama cells?

nit just the site, the databooks too

This entire argument is ironic considering the databook says several times Madara got hashirama's powers after transplanting his cells several times.

 

[Teezar]

The databook itself says “Hashirama’s face appears wherever his cells have been implanted. The cells are alive, but have no awareness.”

Which would imply only direct pieces of Hashirama facilitate the process, not Zetsu’s body which was used on Obito and (likely, don’t remember) Naruto. Yamato is unknown.

One- Kabuto states Madara was beyond his prime now. Madara asks if he knows about his prime, Kabuto replies no and asks for a demonstration. Kabuto’s very own admission begs the question of how he can bring Madara past something he has no knowledge of.

Two- “Just as I had guessed. What awaits when you progress beyond the sharingan is the rinnegan”

Which Madara again refutes, saying he awakened those eyes before his death, and again questions what Kabuto did to his body, and Kabuto repeats the same statement about bringing him past his prime, which Madara immediately goes to thinking he deciphered the uchiha stone tablet, which explains the progression.

Kabuto goes on to say the sharingan progression was a theory Orochimaru and himself had for many years, and Madara was proving that theory true. Kabuto says “the sage of the six paths…I can now touch a fragment of that power with this power I’ve created”, which Madara again refutes, saying he didn’t create anything.

I get the scan you’re showing me exists, but that’s blatantly wrong. Kabuto directly gave Sasuke Hashirama’s cells and he awakened the rinnegan and nothing else (based on him already being an Indra reincarnation + Hagoromo chakra + Hashirama’s cells) For that to be true, Madara can’t have already awakened the rinnegan before Kabuto got to him. He can’t implant jutsu.



It’s far more likely Madara in his remaining decades of life, learned wood style, than in death. Obito through Zetsu’s body which is inferior to pure hashirama meat was practicing wood style in days. Additionally the databook which post-dates the entire war arc says he awakened Hashirama’s powers after transplanting it on himself.



“All ninja who can use wood style that are not Hashirama awakened their abilities in their natural life time.”

I thank you for giving actual content to respond to though regardless of the outcome.

I agree with everything here minus kabuto giving sasuke hashirama cells to unlock rinnegan. Cause sasuke only unlocked it when revived by hagoromo tho it's possible it sped up it's process or made his rinnegan kind of special but sasuke gained it after he got in contact with hagoromo.

 

[RisingIons]

I agree with everything here minus kabuto giving sasuke hashirama cells to unlock rinnegan. Cause sasuke only unlocked it when revived by hagoromo tho it's possible it sped up it's process or made his rinnegan kind of special but sasuke gained it after he got in contact with hagoromo.

Yeah I agree. By Hagoromo’s comment as well, it would have been impossible for Kabuto to have “given” Madara the rinnegan, since Indra’s chakra already migrated to Sasuke, and once the process happens he can’t awaken the rinnegan. Madara died and Indra’s chakra already moved on.

 

[RisingIons]

Bump