Alex Mercer vs Talion

[Mr. Bambu]

That's good, thank you.

...but ultimately we still are comparing an admittedly HUGE city to a literal country built around making a warrior race at high speeds.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Especially since Uruk's don't breed in the conventional sense and more breed by usage of specialized vats.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Especially since Uruk's don't breed in the conventional sense and more breed by usage of specialized vats.

A country that is literally a population factory.

 

[QrowBarr]

bump

 

[QrowBarr]

bump

 

[Sabriae]

Fight goes; Talion sees Mercer, Mercer sees Talion, Talion holds out hand, Mercer levitates slightly in the air while slowly being damaged. Mercer drops to the ground, Talion raises hand again. Repeat until Mercer is gone. Unless something interrupts him Talion can prevent Mercer from making a move indefinitely. Talion can also magically pin limbs in place using his bow, and Mercer isn't resistant to getting magically attached to the ground. There's also an infinite supply of magical throwing knives. Possibly causing Mercer to spontaneously catch fire for the lols.

Or has Mercer somehow picked up resistance to magic and telekinesis (or maybe magical telekinesis) while I wasn't watching?

 

[DeathNoodles]

Unless Talion's telekinesis can completely restrict the target's movements (or can restrain a physically superior opponent), Mercer would either break out of that with his Musclemass ability (which gives him a superior lifting strength, Class M that is), or he unleashes a Devastator (Mercer's Devastators are definitely ranged abilities) which knocks Talion down enough for Mercer to escape it (or just straight up one-shot Talion, as some of Mercer's Devastators has proven to be able to one-shot other tier 8-As). And unless the fire happens to be as potent as the heat of a nuclear fire or so, they would not be able to damage Mercer (especially if Mercer decides to adapt to it, and become resistant). Oh, and Whip Fist can still allow Mercer to spear Talion at a distance while he's still in mid-air.

Otherwise, Mercer can just unleash his Infected Gas (I don't think Talion can freeze gases in place, especially at that amount) and infect everything. As Low 7-C Mercer was calculated via him consuming 8 Evolved, Mercer should still be tier 8-A, thus should still be valid to use. Especially since Mercer has unleashed his Infected Gas (which has infected an entire city) before he even consumed 8 Evolved and gained his Evolved form.

No matter how you look at it, either this becomes Inconclusive or everything becomes more complicated.

 

[Sabriae]

Anything hit by Talion's ranged version of Wraith Drain has been shown to be unable to take any action at all both during and for a short time after the attack. If Mercer can be hit then he has no capacity to act in any way until it is over, and the time between uses is unlikely to be long enough for Mercer to both recover and act. Most enemies, upon being released from just one use, are subsequently terrified of Talion and run away, but Mercer almost certainly resists that side of the power.

On the other hand, it may be a soul-based attack (I can't confirm that either way), so Mercer may be immune.

As for the fire, no where near nuclear level, but it doesn't require any extra effort and adds a pretty lighting effect to the enemy, so why not just set him on fire for the lols? Makes it harder for Mercer to stealth away (although Talion can see through walls and Mercer can't hide if he's basically highlighted when Talion uses his Wraith Vision)

 

[DeathNoodles]

I can't find any information about that ability. So, what does "Wraith Drain" (or the ranged version of it) do, exactly? What type of enemies was it used against, what are its cooldown time, and how many times can Talion use it?

Okay.

As for being lit on fire, Mercer could just pretty much put out the fire (unless there are evidence of the fire not being able to be put out by any conventional means, it should still operate like how fire normally would) with his shapeshifting, adaptation, and some reactive evolution abilities. As for the seeing through walls thing, can't Mercer do the same with his Thermal Vision, as well as being able to locate Talion through his Viral Sonar? And how does Wraith Vision operate, exactly?

 

[Sabriae]

Wraith drain, I don't think it has an official name, but I call it that because it has the drain effect and doesn't require Talion to grab hold of an enemy (so it works on enemies you can't grab). Enemy is immobilised, appears to have an upward force applied to either their chest or head, screams in pain, and can do nothing about it. When the bar fills the enemy is released, takes some damage and need a moment to register their surroundings, then legs it crying in terror. Talion regains Elf Shot. Two uses kills an archer, most uruks go down in three. Makes it Talions' strongest non-finishing move in terms of damage. There is no limit to how often Talion can use it, and the cooldown is about half the time it takes an enemy to recover enough to start running. I've never tried it against non-uruks. On the other hand, it works to kill enemies who are immune to melee, stealth and ranged attacks, and I know because Blorg Dwarf-Killer had to die to it. Twice, the smug @#&!. Not the most common tactic because it can be interrupted if Talion is attacked before he finishes which prevents most effects. Generally used on the last guy standing to get ready for the next fight, or the first guy in if he's too far ahead. It can be upgraded (through runes) to replenish health and focus. Also brands enemies once Talion gets his mind control ability.

Being lit on fire is more a side effect than anything else; it can one-shot kill most uruks but Talion has so many one shot kills against them it's practically a joke (there's even an achievement for managing to execute an enemy who is on fire before they die from the flames).

As for Wraith Vision, he just looks into the Wraith World. Can do it whenever he likes, can see where everyone is, can even identify who he is looking at through multiple walls in the middle of a crowd from a large distance. Can track things too. Does occasionally lead to player confusion over the perfectly aimed headshot that didn't instantly kill the guy who is instantly killed by headshots due to an inconveniently placed fortress.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Okay? Unless "Wraith Drain" happens to have Body Control or Biological Manipulation (which Mercer has resistance to), Talion is pretty much not stopping Mercer from unleashing his Infected Creator gas (which is a result of Mercer's shapeshifting and his control over his bodily functions. This involves much more than the movement of Mercer's limbs). Based from what you've said, Talion can immobilise the enemy into place. However, that does not mean Talion can actually manipulate/immobilise their bodily functions, which is evidenced by the target screaming in pain. While Talion can immobilise Mercer's movements temporarily, unless there's proof that "Wraith Drain" has any sort of Biological Manipulation (which Mercer has resistance to yet again), Talion is not stopping Mercer from unleashing his infected gas and infecting everything around him.

Okay? From what I can tell, most of these sounds ineffective against Mercer's Low-High Regenerationn (and wearing Mercer's Biomass down is not easy anyways, especially if Mercer decides to infect everything around him, and decides to command large amounts of infected population to travel to him as a way for him to absorb them). And since Mercer's Type 7 Immortality means he's apparently immune to conventional Death Manipulation, instant death effects that doesn't influence the trader biologically would have no effect on characters with immortality like Mercer's.

Okay. So that proves that Mercer can't exactly hide away from Talion easily, but how would that prevent Mercer from... Say, using his Whipfist to spear a nearby target for him to absorb, using his Whipfist as some sort of grappling hook to travel around with (I'm pretty sure speed equalisation does not cover mobility advantage. Mercer was able to use it to fling himself to a helicopter, so he can probably use it to travel around his surroundings as well), or just straight up dodge some of Talion's attacks?

As for tracking, Mercer can't be tracked by abilities such as Viral Sonar. I'm not sure if this even applies to Talion, but it's just to let you know. Seeing Mercer is one thing, but tracking him... Might not be that easy.

 

[QrowBarr]

"Mercer's Type 7 Immortality means he's apparently immune to conventional Death Manipulation "

You're talking about type 5, buddy

And yes, once Talion gets a hold of his target, they can do nothing about it.

"Mercer was able to use it to fling himself to a helicopter, so he can probably use it to travel around his surroundings as wel), or just straight up dodge some of Talion's attacks?"

Talion can teleport

 

[DeathNoodles]

No, I'm pretty sure it's type 7 Immortality. I've definitely read somewhere in the Q&A Thread Boards where having Type 7 Immortality means you're unaffected by conventional Death Manipulation (as in, the type that just makes you instantly die without any explanations). I've even heard that being an Undead (which is what Type 7 Immortality is) makes you unaffected by standard Death Manipulation by default.

"And yes, once Talion gets a hold of his target, they can do nothing about it" That's NLF. Unless Talion shows proof of doing that on the scale that I've mentioned to you (Biological Manipulation) or otherwise, he's not stopping Mercer from unleashing his infected gas simply by breathing (or emitting them from every single pore of his body). Unless I see proof of Talion freezing gas attacks, he's not stopping Mercer from unleashing infected gases.

"Talion can teleport" Okay? Last I've checked, that's not going to help prevent Talion from being infected by Mercer and then getting biologically incapacitated by him. Teleporting away from the infected substances is only going to delay Talion getting infected for a few moments.

 

[QrowBarr]

"Unless Talion shows proof of doing that on the scale that I've mentioned to you (Biological Manipulation) or otherwise"

It acts as pain manip I think, targets caught by his grip reacts very strongly to it and become immobalized, unless he has resistance to that.

 

[Sabriae]

Talion would be able to teleport into the helicopter, kill the crew, return to the ground and shoot Mercer in the back before Mercer reached the helicopter. Lethal Shadow Strike Chaining gets crazy (award goes to teleporting away from an incoming attack to kill an archer, then teleporting back and killing the attacker before he finished his swing. Still not sure that wasn't a bug). Fastest way to travel around Mordor, and it's really cheap. Both of these guys are extreme levels of mobile.

Mercer can't be tracked by Viral Sonar? Well, that has nothing to do with Wraith Vision at all, so yes Talion can track him.

 

[DeathNoodles]

"Unless Talion shows proof of doing that on the scale that I've mentioned to you (Biological Manipulation) or otherwise"

It acts as pain manip I think, targets caught by his grip reacts very strongly to it and become immobalized, unless he has resistance to that.

From what I can see, Pain Manipulation stems from either Mind Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, or through the use of drugs/poisons.

Mercer has resistance to Mind Manipulation and Biological Manipulation, and drugs/poisons are certainly not something Mercer hasn't dealt with before (bloodtox, anti-viruses, etc.). I don't think Pain Manipulation alone is enough to immobilise Mercer, based from that.

He should have resistance to that by default.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Talion would be able to teleport into the helicopter, kill the crew, return to the ground and shoot Mercer in the back before Mercer reached the helicopter. Lethal Shadow Strike Chaining gets crazy (award goes to teleporting away from an incoming attack to kill an archer, then teleporting back and killing the attacker before he finished his swing. Still not sure that wasn't a bug). Fastest way to travel around Mordor, and it's really cheap. Both of these guys are extreme levels of mobile.

Mercer can't be tracked by Viral Sonar? Well, that has nothing to do with Wraith Vision at all, so yes Talion can track him.

There are no helicopters in the Land of Mordor, last I've checked. Those are just examples. As for teleporting near Mercer, that's a bad idea as that makes him vulnerable to Mercer's infection (through gases, physical contact, etc.) at such a close proximity.

Okay. Looks like both of them can't hide from each other then.

 

[QrowBarr]

I mean... I really don't know how the thing works TBH.

Mind manip possibly, but there are guys who can resist it and yet are still affected. Biological manip isn't really the case.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I mean... I really don't know how the thing works TBH.

Mind manip possibly, but there are guys who can resist it and yet are still affected. Biological manip isn't really the case.

Hmm. Unless Talion can scale to Sauron's Mind Manipulation (as vague as that is. And I don't think "dominating" Sauron should count, unless Sauron also happens to have a powerful Mind Resistance) at tier 8-A, he's not affecting Mercer with Mind Manipulation (who can resist such from the likes of Elizabeth Greene, who I'm pretty sure was also infecting 81% of Manhattan's population and controlling the infected) with pain.

That's however assuming that the Pain Manipulation truly is Mind Manipulation.

If you don't truly know how it works, then let's just exclude it out of the arguments to make it simpler.

 

[QrowBarr]

Yeah... really don't know how it works.

So we can all agree that this match is a big inconclusive then?

 

[DeathNoodles]

Yeah... really don't know how it works.

So we can all agree that this match is a big inconclusive then?

Yeah, I pretty much agree.

Now, if only we were to have enough votes for Inconclusive...

 

[Stillwinston]

Well I'm pretty sure I already voted incon. ^.^

 

[Sabriae]

The ability does cause mind control when Talion gets access to it, so it's more likely a mind manipulation causing the pain. Of course, it's magic of some description. There's also no mechanic to limit Talion's use of mind control; it's quick and effective, or you stab/ shoot/ burn/ drop flies on them and then use it. Which can lead to the strange moments where you just casually ride through an enemy stronghold and watch the few actual enemies get mobbed by the swarms of branded guys before you get the chance to recruit them.

And yeah, I know about the lack of helicopters in Mordor, I'm giving you an idea of just how fast Talion can get around, and the effect he has on the enemy population. His teleport has a pretty good range and can be cast very rapidly (as the two kills during one enemy axe swing example should tell you).

I'll vote incon too. I don't think Talion is dishing out damage quickly enough to prevent Mercer regenerating, but Mercer straight up can't kill Talion and it's questionable if he can control him.

Ok, so I wrote the above a few hours ago, and something told me to boot up Shadow of Mordor because something hasn't been addressed yet. After a bit of playing, I remembered that Talion has a second ability that appears to be death hax. It has not been addressed in this thread yet, probably because it is a later game ability and isn't specifically used in any missions, even as a bonus objective.

Wraith Burn, when used, will kill all orcs within range who are either under the effects of wraith stun, or stunned normally (i.e. knocked off their feet). So I figured I'd check if it works against anything bigger before bringing it up. The result; a single use one shotted a power 9 and a power 16 captain at the same time. That means Talion can hit Mercer with an attack that can one shot both a "likely multi-city block" dura AND an "at least wall class, possibly higher" dura at the same time (and a couple of fodder uruks, but they are, well, fodder). Not only that, but since it works on Elite Captains it will also work on Warchiefs, and they have multi-city block dura. And he can spam the hell out of this, since he can use it twice in a row with no pause and then twice again a few seconds later, and a few seconds after that, and so on.

Now for the complications; The description makes it sound like death hax, and when used against fodder Uruks they do just drop dead. However, it is called Wraith Burn (indicating fire), and while the weaker of the two captains was killed instantly, I thought I saw flame effects around the body of the stronger captain when I turned around, meaning it may be a fire attack. Secondly, both the runes dropped had +1 level for knowing weakness, meaning that somewhere in my fight against them I had used their weaknesses. The 16 had "can be injured by combat finishers" and "can be injured by explosions" in his list of weaknesses (if it is a fire attack then this would explain how a barely injured 16 can be instantly killed by it, because it is listed as a combat finisher), but I actually didn't have intel on the 9, so this may be a case of I just happen to have hit the two Captains who were going to die to it, and most would have taken multiple uses. As said before though, Talion can spam this.

The next issue is the requirement to work; Talion either has to hit the victim with Wraith Stun, or just beat them to their knees. Wraith Stun requires Talion to be within melee range, while trying to bash Mercer to the ground with ranged attacks would be difficult (given how Elite Captains and Warchiefs are thrown around by rapid shots from Talion's bow, probably not impossible), and then he has to close in to use Wraith Burn anyway, since the AoE is centered on Talion.

The final drawback for Talion is the range of the effect itself- the radius appears to be no more than half again his maximum sword thrust range, and enemies outside that are unaffected. This means that while Talion does have an ability that *may* be a multi-city-block AoE instant kill, it *may* also be a multi-city-block AoE fire attack, or it *may* be a less than multi-city-block AoE fire attack that just happened to be used against the right enemies. Regardless of which of the previous statements applies, he still has to either knock Mercer down or hit him with Wraith Stun before this comes into play.

Overall, I'm not sure this changes anything. Talion is already listed as having a multi-city-block attack power, but this will cover Mercer's whole body in a single shot, rather than just the section hit by the sword.

I'll go inconclusive.

 

[QrowBarr]

bump

 

[Schnee_One]

Incon FRAi

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Inconclusive FRA

 

[QrowBarr]

Le bump

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Vote count?

 

[QrowBarr]

4 inconclusives

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Get more people to vote, just like what I said in your Spooky vs Talion thread. I'm thinking of letting Talion face these two.

 

[QrowBarr]

Feel that Oracle has that in the bag.

Lifestealer will probably end up like this thread IMO.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Actually, Oracle is 2-A with his causality hax, which can be restricted to make it fair.

I guess you're right about Lifestealer, but we need to finish this first.

 

[Kaltias]

Oracle utterly demolishes Talion. It wouldn't be a fair fight at all

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I guess Lifestealer is much more fair since Oracle has insane precog and clairvoyance as well as fate manipulation..

 

[QrowBarr]

Maybe the Lich could be a better match up?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For Talion? Or Alex? Coz he already has an in-progress match vs Mercer.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Talion vs Lich? Hmm...

 

[QrowBarr]

For Talion I mean.

 

[QrowBarr]

bump

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Inconclusive FRA