Acausality Type 5 checklist

[Theglassman12]

Alright, after the last Type 5 thread didn't go so well due to miscommunication on what the standards were, let alone who exactly qualified for the new standards or not. I'm redoing this now that I've gotten a better grasp on what does and doesn't qualify for type 5 Acausality.

Let's get the requirements out of the way: to qualify you need to have some statements that you're beyond causality to the point of being an unchangeable entity (essentially being unaffected by anything and everything that would affect the world in some way shape or form). Both of these are required for type 5 to be validated, as without these two, it can be taken as either a resistance to causality manipulation or type 4 Acausality or some other ability depending on the context. The same applies to the alleged acausal character being interactable by normal people, or more generally beings that have absolutely no precedent for being able to do that as that would be an anti-feat and would be one of the two mentioned prior.

Qualifies: TES Gods, Madoka Kaname, Time Lords (Doctor Who), Chaos Gods (Warhammer [possibly Type 5]), Cradle Robber (possibly Type 5), MSPA reader, The Ultimate Gods (Cthulhu Mythos), Sun Wukong, Light and Darkness (Destiny), Dragon Talisman characters, Axl Low, Gao Chuan, Marvel characters, SCP characters, Sage Monarch characters

Disqualifies: Lucifer Morningstar, Oryx, the Taken King, Homestuck characters (7), WoD characters, Umineko characters, I/O characters, AWLB characters, Transformers characters, SMT characters, Luminous Being, Alpha Centauri, Oblivion, Akuto Sai, Law of Identity, DC characters, Tokyo Babel characters, M, Unwritten, Gods of Heaven, Twin Peaks, Mana-Yood-Sushai, Dorozhand, Q, Sassy the Sasquatch, Swirl of the Root, Downstreamers, Animorph characters, The Starmaker, The Narrator, The Player, Goddess of the Manifold, The Illusionist, Mother Eater, Yogiri Takatou

 

[Theglassman12]

Another note to add here, if there's any old 1-A and higher pages that have type 5 acausality with no explanation whatsoever, unless the supporters can show that they still qualify for the new standards, I'm going to assume it's based off the old format where anyone that was 1-A and above arbitrarily got type 5 for no reason.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Would various characters from The Elder Scrolls such as the Daedra and Et'Ada qualify due to being unbound by time, cause, and consequence as well as existing in a state where all events happen at once?

 

[Dragonite007]

Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics)

Lucifer Morningstar is a fallen rebel archangel who was cast out of Heaven and onto Earth as punishment for leading the revolt of the angels. He's the twin brother of Michael Demiurgos and the uncle of Elaine Belloc. Before the DC Verse was created, in the void outside all creations that is the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Theglassman12]

@BestMGQScalerEver yeah they qualify for the new standards for type 5.

@Dragonite007 looks like type 4 Acausality at best, nothing about it mentions being in an unchangeable state as a result of Lucifer being outside of the function of cause and effect.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not to clog up this thread or anything, but is there a cutoff point for how many times a character who fits the criteria for type 5 can be interacted with before they're no longer type 5? Because that part of the standards seems kinda arbitrary.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara If the verse has an in universe explanation for the characters being able to interact with them then there's not really much of a cutoff point.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara If the verse has an in universe explanation for the characters being able to interact with them then there's not really much of a cutoff point.

And if there isn't?

 

[Georredannea15]

I just looked at Madoka's Acausality Type 5 context and I think it's not sufficient by current standards. (Of course I readed the scans one by one.)

If I missed something, I don't hesitate to argue and compromise.

 

[Joycap]

This is just immortality

In all seriousness, Moebius Z comes to mind fairly quickly (Endless Now and all that). @JoshSSJGod is working on pages for XC3's characters as we speak, so as soon as those are finalised, he can tell you more.

 

[AKUTO123]

It will be difficult to explain the philosophy of the series without knowing it, but let's try. The tloi is inherently independent of all stories, and no matter how much a story evolves, the tloi is outside of it (the story also includes things like causation). "It was space with no time. It was a place where the laws of physics came to an end. It was beyond causality. It was casting aside one's earthly form. It was the salvation of all." As this quote shows, tloi and empty body are incompatible with causality or any causal thing.

 

[Georredannea15]

Madoka is probably the textbook of Aca type 5 along with Oryx

what is context? Because I could not see any causality of the law of the cycle or an explanation that shows all the cause-effect relationships of the verse. You just can't interact with her but some Acausality Type 4s work like Type 5.

If you don't have Acausality Type 4, some Acausality Type 4s work just like Type 5. The situation here seems like similar to this.(Ofc without extra statements/context)

 

[ImmortalDread]

I do remember having a whole list of pages of which one don't qualify in that thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Madoka is probably the textbook of Aca type 5 along with Oryx

Ya agreed. More blatant can't be.

 

[Georredannea15]

Guys, could you please stop saying textbook and show these contexts? Because when I look at the scans in the profile, it is not really type 5 according to current standards. Is there something I missed?

Have more scans not in profile?

 

[ImmortalDread]

We should probably add Madoka as a prime example for acausality tbh.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

We should probably add Madoka as a prime example for acausality tbh.

Ya, blatant statements of being unable to be interacted with or even remembered plus statements of her having no causality to the world.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya, blatant statements of being unable to be interacted with or even remembered plus statements of her having no causality to the world.

Indeed.

 

[RitsuØ1]

We should probably add Madoka as a prime example for acausality tbh.

Yeah. Agreed.

 

[Georredannea15]

Ya, blatant statements of being unable to be interacted with or even remembered plus statements of her having no causality to the world.

That is, is it known that there are "all cause-effect natures and all cause-effect relationships" within this world? That's all I want to know and want to see with scan.

This is not Type 5. doesn't exist if all cause-effect nature and relationships are not exist or known .

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That is, is it known that there are "all cause-effect natures and all cause-effect relationships" within this world? That's all I want to know and want to see with scan.

This is not Type 5. doesn't exist if all cause-effect nature and relationships are not exist or known .

Ya, still feel like you guys made that requirment up.

 

[PhantomØ4]

We should probably add Madoka as a prime example for acausality tbh.

Totally agree. She’s a perfect example unlike some other characters

 

[Georredannea15]

Ya, still feel like you guys made that requirment up.

This is necessary, man. This is why Type 5 Acausality is so rigid, it must be transcendent and independent of all cause-effect natures and relationships. If it doesn't have all cause-effect nature or relationships, it would be Type 4.

I hope you know that Type 5 should have this.

As long as the world does not contain all cause-effect natures and relationships, this would be type 4.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Nevermind, this is glasses thread, he'll decide since he is the one who changed the Aca Type 5 requirments.

 

[Georredannea15]

Nevermind, this is glasses thread, he'll decide since he is the one who changed the Aca Type 5 requirments.

Yeah, I'm waiting for his comment.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nevermind, this is glasses thread, he'll decide since he is the one who changed the Aca Type 5 requirments.

No, it was everything12

 

[ImmortalDread]

Aside from Georr's derailment, I need to search for my post where I posted a whole research on non-qualifed ones.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No, it was everything12

Oof, my bad.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dw, glass only implied that he grasped the idea.

 

[Georredannea15]

Aside from Georr's derailment,

Huuuu... Why am I always guilty? Anyway, after what you wrote, Glass is the only person I'm waiting for the answer to frankly.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Guys, could you please stop saying textbook and show these contexts?

No, **** you

Anyway

---

I'm planning to create a verse and I'm pretty sure it qualifies for Type 5, but it is not a certainty yet

Basically, there is a goddess which is the abstraction of probability and by her (And Lich's) description , probability also includes causality. "She" is the very concept. Without her theres no probability, no causality, no overcomes

Yota: My name is Yota. And I am Probability Itself. I'm a Goddess of all the unimportant events that tie together to allow the universe to continue spinning. A rustle of a branch causing an avalanche. A small rock that starts an earthquake.

Yota: There exists an uncountable number of probabilities where you have been defeated. Where you've died on your looped path or were killed by one of his "Disciples". Or just decided to give up and face the End of the World. All these probabilities and realities are still doomed to happen.

The Lich: I don’t think you’re able to comprehend this. I’m a part of the self-defense mechanism. One of the multitude of copies sent to other realities at the moment of death.

Yota virtually exists on a plane beyond everything, beyond the infinite hypertimelines (I won't go deeper into this). However, she is not the first being, there are other gods that she cannot affect and that are virtually independent of her influence, to the point that they do not even know that she exists.

Omega: Yota? I don't know you. I didn't create you in any of my incarnations. Probabilities, chances... where did you come from?
Yota: I've always existed. Just as you yourself have. Like many others that we still don't know anything about. The world is ridiculously big. I liked the creation of your last incarnation. I didn't want it to disappear completely. But I can't confront you head on. So what's the probability that something capable of defeating you exist in this world? How tiny is that chance?
Doesn't matter. I've decided that probability still exists. And here he is, a small man made from flesh, blood, a bit of luck, and some play of circumstances, standing before you.

This thing about Yota creating someone capable of defeating Omega is not because he is affected by her, but because she was taking advantage of the human emotions he was having

The Hero: Tell me, why were you pretending to be human all this time? Was it really necessary?
Yota: Yes.
I needed to focus my influence on this small area. On one little man.
When I change appearance, I don't simply put on a mask to pretend that I'm someone else. Gods think on different levels and different planes than... Everyone else.
Everything seems primitive. Unimportant. Weak. I'm nearly dying of boredom trying to keep this conversation going.
In a land of blind and deaf men, you must deprive yourself of sight and hearing to understand the locals, right? That's how I did it.

That's how I can believe in humans. That's how I can show compassion and help.
I think that's what happened to Alpha. Being a human made him compassionate, and he let himself be killed. Being a human made Omega sentimental. And you see what happened.

There is more context, but I think this is enough

Furthermore, cosmic entities such as gods can exist in the void, something so primordial that nonexistence can't exist there, not even dimensions, matter, temperature, energy, space, time, information and memories, "was something" even without the existence of abstractions like Yota

So, is that enough for the void and the gods to be Aca type 5?

 

[Georredannea15]

No, **** you

Anyway

---

I'm planning to create a verse and I'm pretty sure it qualifies for Type 5, but it is not a certainty yet

Basically, there is a goddess which is the abstraction of probability and by her (And Lich's) description , probability also includes causality. "She" is the very concept. Without her theres no probability, no causality, no overcomes



Yota virtually exists on a plane beyond everything, beyond the infinite hypertimelines (I won't go deeper into this). However, she is not a being that exists first of all, there are other gods that she cannot affect and that are virtually independent of her influence, to the point that they do not even know that she exists.


This thing about Yota creating someone capable of defeating Omega is not because he is affected by her, but because she was taking advantage of the human emotions he was having

There is more context, but I think this is enough

Furthermore, cosmic entities such as gods can exist in the void, something so primordial that nonexistence can't exist there, not even dimensions, matter, temperature, energy, space, time, information and memories, "was something" even without the existence of abstractions like Yota

So, is that enough for the void and the gods to be Aca type 5?

Look man, that's what makes Type 5 so elusive.

The fact that a verse says "there is no causality for her/him" does not directly make it Type 5 Acausality. Because in order to be Type 5, the "causality" expressed in the verse must include the all cause-effects natures and relationships. If this is unknown , it would be Type 4. This is what separates Type 4 and Type 5.

This is because not every "causality" statements includes all cause-effects natures by default. At least according to the wiki.

Also, the scans you showed looks like Type 4.

Gods think on different levels and different planes than... Everyone else.
Everything seems primitive. Unimportant. Weak. I'm nearly dying of boredom trying to keep this conversation going.
In a land of blind and deaf men, you must deprive yourself of sight and hearing to understand the locals, right? That's how I did it.

This and other statements in particular are a solid Type 4 Acausality.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara then we take it as resistance to causality manipulation or type 4 acausality depending on the context, especially if a bunch of random people can interact with them willy nilly.

@Georredannea15 yeah idk, Madoka seems to qualify given she's lacked any cause and effect, rendering her uninteractable and detached from the world.

@Joycap is it the passage of fate stuff? Because you're going to need more than that for type 5.

@ActuallySpaceMan42 being not remembered isn't really relevant for type 5. Her being outside of the cause and effect of the world and not changing from the world's alteration or being uninteractable is sufficient enough.

@LIFE_OF_KING do u have any scans for Oryx that can justify the type 5? As for the verse you got I'm not exactly seeing type 5, is there any actual statements that probability and causality are one and the same in this verse, and these gods that are out of the influence becomes a constant that hardly changes? Because that would qualify.

@AKUTO123 I'm gonna need some scans, but so far you only have like half of the requirements, you need them existing outside of causality resulting in them not changing with the rest of the world as a result.

 

[Georredannea15]

@Georredannea15 yeah idk, Madoka seems to qualify given she's lacked any cause and effect, rendering her uninteractable and detached from the world.

If we accept any cause-effect as all cause-effect natures and relationships, yes it can be. But the real question is, do you think you should accept it?

If the only statement is to be "independent of the world's cause-effect", I don't think this will work because we needs to know that world's cause-effect "contains all cause-effect natures and relationships". That's what separates Type 4 and Type 5 and it's also what makes Type 5 so difficult.

 

[Theglassman12]

I literally said she seems to check out. Why are you asking me a question i already answered?

 

[Georredannea15]

I literally said she seems to check out. Why are you asking me a question i already answered?

Dude where did you say? I can't see.

 

[Georredannea15]

Her being outside of the cause and effect of the world and not changing from the world's alteration or being uninteractable is sufficient enough.

If world's cause and effect contains all cause-effect natures and relationships, yeah it's type 5.

But this "outside of the cause and effect of the world" statement you wrote above is can't be Type 5 without the context I wrote above. That's exactly what i mean but you guys misunderstand me.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is arbitration and and own made up requirement.

This simply implying to have NLF statement to suffice the arbitary needs.

Stop derailing because Glass already answered the question twice.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Ok advocating for my child and for the Celestis (Potentially to the Time Lords via Ultimate Sanction)

First of all, Time Lord exist outside of normal system of causa and effect (From The Also People)

"Time Lords always bugger up the ships' predictive assessments because they can step out of the normal chain of causal events. What really got the wind up the VASs was that someone discovered another trans-temporal being on the sphere."

"Another Time Lord?"

"Not according to the Doctor; human, he says, the same as the other barbarians but souped up."

Time Lords exist, to a certain extent, outside of time. Holsred knew that, knew it should apply to him. He was a Time Lord, after all, albeit a very young one. He could defy chronology, and did so, landing punches a few seconds before they should have impacted, performing moves at impossible speeds, folding his tentacles through space-time so that they all made contact at once. Limited prescience allowed him to block the archons’ attacks as they happened. At least, that was the theory. All these techniques worked. But the Celestis existed outside all the laws, outside normal space time itself. They were the product of hell, a world with its own rules. And even though Mictlan had been destroyed, the archon still wielded that power.

The interesting thing is that causality is the history that exists within time-space as such, the history is dictated by Time Lords/Great Houses establishing Linear Universe via Observation Effect

Affect Time=affect Causality, different time=different Causality

The Time vortex is made up of all types of time and non-time.

The time lords were mapped in the Time Vortex in order to become acausals

Being a Time Lord meant more than simply having a good education, political power and a pompous title. The Rassilon Imprimatur actually changed the body of a Gallifreyan on a genetic level, force-evolving them from mere terrestrial beings into creatures of time, itself.

Many of the benefits from this are covered in the Time Lord Trait, but there are a host of other benefits as well, including bodily regeneration, the ability to symbiotically link to a TARDIS and the ability to survive for short periods in the Vortex without immediate dissolution.

Most importantly of all, Time Lords are ‘mapped’ onto the Vortex by their genetic investiture. This means, in effect, that a Time Lord’s ‘reality’ is much more solid than other, more ephemeral beings, and as a consequence is that much harder to change or erase. Even taking earlier incarnations out of their respective timelines serves only to weaken a Time Lord rather than erase them outright, and the Blinovitch Limitation field around a time-knapped earlier incarnation is so strong that it is very difficult to do any permanent harm to them. This gives a Time Lord time to locate the source of their problem and hopefully correct it before too much damage can be done to their permanent timeline. - The Time Traveller's Companion

After establishing themselves as beings above all else, while the present of other beings were subjective, GHs sealed Gallifrey away and made their present absolute, incapable of even being able to communicate with their past or future selves.

At the end of the universe/Time, the laws of causality began to break down

now Celestis are Outside of Casuality and Time Vortex


Acasuals Time Lords barely remember them when they were removed from history (The Book of War)

There is, for obvious reasons, no record of how the Celestis managed to remove themselves and all traces of their history from the Spiral Politic. It's been suggested that the technology which cut them out of the physical universe might have been supplied by the Godfather lieutenants of House Paradox, as the Grandfather of the House seems to have been scrubbed from the timeline by a similar process (although compared to the Celestis, the Grandfather seems a positively benign presence). Whatever the Celestis did, they did not only to themselves but to a sizable portion of the Homeworld. Those agents of the Houses who posses deep-time memory-the ability to remember past-iteration events even if they no longer actually happened-record that there was once an academy on the Homeworld which was used as a prime recruiting-ground by the hard-line interventionist groups, and which withdrew from the academic roster mere days before the Celestis seem to have wiped themselves from history.

Nobody else has any recollection of this academy however, so it's fair to assume that it was removed at the same time as the Celestis themselves and turned into the extra spatial realm of Mictlan. The fate of the students and academicians who weren't part of the Celestis ''conspiracy'' remains unknown, but they may have been used to create the earliest conceptual entities.

From The Taking of Planet Five

In that part of the grey hours of Mictlan that felt like the time of debate, he attended the Last Parliament. He saw the minute and ceaseless interplay of the squabbles of his fellow Lords Celestial. The Lord of the Red Moon wished to invoke peer-right to suppress the chrono-logical changes proposed by the Duke of Knives and his coterie, but was opposed by the Grey Cardinals and the Chronometricists. Smoked Mirror inclined to Red Moon’s faction but had not yet given a commitment to either side. Vaguely he wondered why not. Had he some obligation to one of the Chronometricist Guild? If so he could not now recall it precisely. That was worrying. Like all the Lords Celestial, Smoked Mirror was linked to the block-transfer engines and computational matrices of which Mictlan was constructed. His memory was not held within his skull. As with all his fellows, his body was not him, but merely a convenient fiction, almost a legality, provided by the engines of Mictlan to ground his interaction with the other Celestis within a shared net of experience modelled on the customs of Old Gallifrey. In many ways the Celestis were creatures built out of habits. Tradition crept through their veins, like dust, but it was the tradition of the victor, of the upstart. They had escaped the war and all its sordid incidents. They had put themselves beyond incident, beyond the merely causal, and beyond the stars. Mictlan hung on the exterior hypersurface of the expanding bubble of real space-time like a bug riding a balloon. He was Mictlan, as were they all. Its purpose was to sustain them; their purpose was to live and move and have their being with in it. If it was threatened, if in some way it was failing, the very existence of the Celestis could be in danger. That was the other part of his feeling. It was fear.

While he had grappled with the problem of his memory, the speeches had been droning on. Absently he noted that the Duke of Knives was in the light now, a shimmer of clashing glints as of moving steel

Mictlan was – in its origin – a metaphysical bomb shelter. Removed from space-time, it and its occupants (if the two could in any real sense be distinguished except at the most simplistic of levels) were, in theory at least, immune to the time winds, to the possible changes being, or to be, wrought by the war. In theory, even if the Enemy had turned primordial Gallifrey into atoms or defused Omega’s stellar manipulator, or aborted the Time Lords’ history in any way, Mictlan should have remained – a node of information from a previous space time preserved after its collapse by the lack of a causal connection between itself and the war.

This is from a agent of Celestis , that are below them in casuality sense since they were created to be able to interact with the universe without screwing it up so much

Time Lords exist, to a certain extent, outside of time. Holsred knew that, knew it should apply to him. He was a Time Lord, after all, albeit a very young one. He could defy chronology, and did so, landing punches a few seconds before they should have impacted, performing moves at impossible speeds, folding his tentacles through space-time so that they all made contact at once. Limited prescience allowed him to block the archons’ attacks as they happened. At least, that was the theory. All these techniques worked. But the Celestis existed outside all the laws, outside normal space time itself. They were the product of hell, a world with its own rules. And even though Mictlan had been destroyed, the archon still wielded that power.

The creature was always three steps ahead of Holsred, spinning through the higher dimensions, turning into impossible things. A body bristling with weapons, moving faster than the speed of thought, attacking from everywhere at once. He was competent enough to defend himself against most of the attacks thrown at him, but at this pace ‘most’ wasn’t nearly enough: blows were getting through, cuts were being made. One attack tore off a limb, another sliced off a tentacle, Pain blinded Holsred and he reeled back, but the attacks kept on coming. His five eyes were ripped out by their stalks, one by one. He felt his spine break, one of his hearts being pierced.

(Hume is a time lord, as I said an acausal being and still is bound to the law of Universe while Celesti agent no are)

A Celesti fictional generator,’ said Hume. ‘A device capable of altering reality in a fundamental way. It may be the only thing around here powerful enough to use against a Celesti; or rather, what you might call an archon, a Celesti agent. Being tangential to this universe allows them to break all sorts of laws of nature that hold the rest of us back. Here!

otherwise this happen when the Celestis act

They started to look wider. The Lords of Mictlan meddle: they interfere, they – sometimes dispassionately, sometimes not – weed.

Where they act, space-time retains traces. Worlds vanished; histories were unwritten.

They started to look for the effects of such things never having been done. They started to look for worlds appearing, for histories reap pearing, for the resurgence of the universe that had existed before the life of the Lord had been wiped away.

During the War in Heaven, a multitude of memetic weapons were used, which can exist even if they no longer exist completely destroyed from space-time. (Again from the book of war)

• It was known that with the correct application of technology, an object or individual could be put into a forced-paradox state in which that object was entirely removed from the timeline as if it had never been there. Yet although this process removed the object’s matter from the universe, an observer in a null-zone state could still remember its existence. Therefore the memetic mass of the object – its meaning, its importance, its ability to be comprehended – remained. The object survived, but as a pure concept of itself, as a shadow of understanding with no physical mass. It was the same principle which would, once the War began, be used to create the conceptual entities.

those weapons, they are still tied to the war meanwhile the Celestis no

"There was a place in Hell where skulls were the only ornaments, and the servants had no faces. Even from there he had been cast out. As a shadow of a shade he came to dwell at the edge of a certain abyss, in a tower built out of the bodies of those he had personally marked when he had been allowed in the dark councils of Mictlan. This happened soon after the masters of the Celestial Intervention Agency, the Celestis, had pulled the doors of perception closed behind themselves lest their histories be unravelled in the war with the Time Lords’ future enemy, in the battles they had foreseen. They had put reality behind them like a bad dream and turned themselves into creatures built out of mythemes and the working of nanoscopic machine-demons. They had poisoned the walls of reality itself, until Mictlan had bubbled up into existence on its far side, a cyst of galled space-time cut off from the time winds. It was their glorious world of the dead"

Also, what do you think about Anti-time? is essentially the Anti-matter for casuality (Zagreus is made of it, but he still have type 4)

"Anti-time: as intractable and destructive a force to causality as antimatter is to space. Something with no past, no present, no future. A perpetuity of meaningless chaos. A Now, with no beginning or end. Elegant, brilliant, thoroughly logical... and utter gibberish."

In order to escape the destruction of all existence caused by the Ultimate Sanction, the Time Lords would shed off their physical forms, becoming entities of pure consciousness freed from time and causality, this being almost the same thing that the Celestis did (but they did it on a smaller scale and without bursting the omniverse)

 

[Georredannea15]

This is arbitration and and own made up requirement.

This simply implying to have NLF statement to suffice the arbitary needs.

Stop derailing because Glass already answered the question twice.

This is not a requirement I made up myself. That's what Everything12's implied at the time, and that's what made Type 5 so difficult. You must know because of MG.