About Immortality type 9 and SBA

[Ogbunabali]

Something I'm curious about, and I haven't really found an answer to, is how exactly is type 9 Immortality treated in vs battles?

In the sense that, if canonically the "higher form" doesn't really care, if you kill their avatar for instance and they would kinda give up and wouldn't immediately create another one, would they be subject under SBA to be forced to care and not give up and create one right away?

For instance Hircine, if you kill one of his aspects in verse he would either not care enough to make a new one, or he would find you worthy and let you live. Does SBA extend to his true form and force him to care and not give up and make another aspect, or not?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Bump.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think it is more of an in-character thing. I don't think SBA would extend to Hircine's true form since it true form has different key then the avatar.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It is a different key, but it is the same person that's why it's so confusing. In the Standard Battle Assumptions page it says this:

Furthermore characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other.

And the aspect of Hircine and Hircine himself is the same character. They aren't different personas or, or clones something.

 

[NeoSuperior]

This is a good point. I think we really need some sort of "rule" that specifies that any such Avatar-type with a stronger "true self" with different AP needs to have a victory condition against it that isn't overly specific to a certain power, and doesn't require having to defeat the true self in order to win, since that would essentially mean that the avatar is a strawman to enable that character to be able to fight lower AP characters to score easy wins, to the point you might wonder why it's not just directly the True self that's fighting, regardless of whether or not the Avatar got some hax or hax-potency lowered.

If a new avatar just keeps coming back endlessly regardless of what the opponent does, forcing an incon for an endless fight at best, or stamina-ing out the opponent at worst, then that avatar key's existence seems kind of pointless unless there is a good way to beat it.

I saw some mentions about incap against avatar types being presumed to be a victory condition but I saw that it doesn't always apply so I am not sure if that's really a global rule or not.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Ogbunabali and @NeoSuperior, I guess what guys said would make based on our current SBA rule.

 

[NeoSuperior]

@Elizhaa
It's exactly because SBA leaves has this loophole that I am brining it up here. Frankly I think it requires a new rule.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizhaa

It's exactly because SBA leaves has this loophole that I am brining it up here. Frankly I think it requires a new rule.

New SBA rule, humm?

There is a SBA thread going on right now, probably after it is done, I could make a thread on it. Though, I would likely need more discussion on it first.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't think a new rule is warranted or anything. I was just looking for clarification on how the wiki treats this. But if it isn't decided on either way, it probably should be.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I just don't want to see any profile keys that are 3D, but actually require killing/incaping/haxing a 6D being to win.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Just incap the avatar

 

[Jinsye]

I just don't want to see any profile keys that are 3D, but actually require killing/incaping/haxing a 6D being to win.

There's alot of those though

 

[NeoSuperior]

@Oblivion Of The Endless
Then some fan from the franchise responds: "But in-character Suprememe Being A always sends in new avatars in the moment it becomes unable to fight, like a clockwork, endlessly! So incapping shouldn't be enough to beat it!"

What then?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Depends on the character. Not all Supreme Beings/True Forms acts like that

 

[DontTalkDT]

We at some point have to clarify how the SBA works with type 9.

There is for example also the fact that, according to SBA, characters start at most 4km away from each other.

For something like higher plane true form characters that is no problem, but for someone like Caster (Merlin) that should technically mean that Merlins true form would be summoned into Central Park, which makes his type 9 useless.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Merlin's true form is in a higher plane though

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't know about anything about Fate, but as you said type 9 and SBA needs to be clarified. Both for the starting distance and whether characters are forced to not give up or not.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Afaik, Dagoth Ur spams himself and doesn't give up. However, his true self is just as powerful as his avatars, so that probably isn't a good example.

 

[InfiniteSped]

It always seemed a bit odd that some characters just get to start in another dimension when the fight starts.

Does that apply to characters who generally use avatars, but their true selves are still in the same dimension? Just very, very far away.