About Haku and his Ice Mirrors (NEW)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The whole Madara Light Fang stuff very much derailed the Haku discussion so, to keep it separate and stable, im making this thread to take the Haku stuff here. And to try and debunk something.

Okay. SO my thoughts about the whole Haku stuff with his mirrors being lightspeed...and it being an outlier.....

....I actually don't think its an outlier. At least for Haku anyway.

Now the conscensus here, about the whole thing in general being an outlier, is because KM1 Naruto was "able to tag him" and Sasuke was able to perceive Haku through 1 tomoe Sharingan. Now It is clear that both things happened, thats no question. So why isn't this an outlier? From what I believe at least, the answer's simple: Haku wasn't light speed in either moment, but lower than it, even drasically.

And there are multiple points to this.

1.) If you guys remembered from the fight, it was confirmed by Haku himself that the Ice Mirror Jutsu requires and uses up an incredible amount of Chakra to be used for such a long period of time. That means the user must have a large chakra resevoir to even use the jutsu, and even with that, using it for a long time can drain them. In addition to this, Sasuke himself even suspects of this being true as he saysHaku's movements are slowing down as well for his chakra closing in on its limit (hence the "getting weaker" claim and the anime secondary canon supports this as Sasuke there flat out says his movements are slowing). In other words, the more Haku uses chakra for the jutsu, and the jutsu himself, the slower he becomes for using it over an extended period.

2.) According to this page, because Sasuke was familarizing with Haku's decreasing movements of speed, and was obviously on the brink of awakening the Sharingan, Sasuke's own speed was also increasing at the same time. This also supports this claim, otherwise Haku wouldnt have been required to target Naruto first to catch Sasuke off-guard instead of just attacking directly. And by "familarizing", it's not as great as you'd think. Sasuke needed minor instances, such as Haku repeling the water from his mirrors when moving , or his fireball jutsu interfering, to barely see glimpses of Haku's speed trails. Even then, there is a difference between perceiving speed and actually being able to match it with your body. Sasuke geting embarrased by Rock Lee is a perfect example.

3.) Regarding KM1 Naruto "tagging" Haku. If i remember correctly, the mirrors are what Haku explicity uses to even move at Light Speed or anything higher than his base speed correct? Otherwise the need of the mirrors would be completely irrelevant to how fast he moves. Well, if you take a look here , and look here , Naruto when using Kurama's power only grabbed Haku because he was out in the open, outisde the mirrors. Haku right before this states he needs to "quickly get to the next mirror". When he isn't using the mirrors, Haku cannot move at the speeds he'd normally travel at when using them. So Haku, when grabbed by Naruto, was never moving at the mirror speeds, and thats especially true when Haku's movements at this point have dropped considerably compared to near the beginning of the fight. Had Naruto never summoned Kurama's power in this moment, Haku would have still won handily, even with reduced power and speed.

4.) Last point from 3 brings me to this, a small thing to note out. Anyone ever consider the possibility of Haku being beaten by them at all big PIS? This occurence is a common kind of trope in fiction. The villain stomping the good guys, the good guys awaken a new power at the last second and start turning the tables. In this case, Sasuke awakening the sharingan at the last second and Naruto awakening Kurama's power at the last second. Haku and Zabuza needed to be beaten somehow, and given this was Team 7's first actual fight/mission that was notable, it would make sense for an ass-pull like this to happen so they could stop them.

5.) About the "getting teared to shreds" part. I believe Haku not being harmed by his own speed was because of stuff thats along the lines of being intangible or phasing through objects. We clearly see here that Haku is phasing through his ice mirrors when using them . Both the manga and anime canons confirm this. As such, if one were to be phasing or be intangible, it would logically support the fact that traveling at such speeds wouldnt harm them.

To sum things up here, besides PIS:

-Haku's speed gradually goes down if he uses the Ice Mirror jutsu for too long, at best giving him Lightspeed in the form of short bursts or short timespans, when his chakra levels are either full or nearly full. As such, this should not be an outlier for him.

-Sasuke, even with Sharingan, only ever perceived Haku when using small instances as mentioned, Haku being slower in speed for above reasons, and using the Sharingan's abilities to further increase his own speed capabilities, making it possible and more easier for Sasuke to keep up with Haku. That said, because of the speed difference between Light speed and where Team 7 was already, this would still be an outlier for Sasuke in the end.

-Naruto never tagged Haku when he was in Light-speed motion via the mirrors. Not only were Haku's speed and movements gradually decreased from before, but Haku was tagged by Naruto before he could use the mirrors to continue moving at speeds higher than his base speed. That said, like Sasuke, this would still be an outlier for Naruto as well.

-Haku not being torn or harmed by his own speed is covered by him having some level of phasing or intangibility thats demonstrated when he enters his ice mirrors.


So in the end, if no one sees issues with this, and this is acceptable, I think only Haku should be allowed to have this speed. It remains an outlier for Naruto and Sasuke, and of course those who scale from/to them, but Haku keeps it only in the form of short time-spans or short bursts, using the mirrors, when not on the brink of being depleted of power.

Agree: Omimi, Rocker1189 (gave Kudos)

Disagree: Zensum, UniteMyRice,

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So who does this scale to, if anyone? If anyone really does scale then I question if this is usable. Would be a massive outlier, outstripping even the suggested Light Fang dodge by more than 6 times.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No one would scale at all.

It'd only be Haku keeping lightspeed, in the form of either short bursts or short periods of time, when his chakra levels are at least near to full.

Naruto and Sasuke are still outliers and ofc anyone who scales from them.

 

[Omimi]

agree

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump

 

[LordGinSama]

Don't bump threads in only 3 hours. Be patient.

 

[Zensum]

I disagree, Haku couldn't have possibly gone from lightspeed to supersonic tier after using his mirror blitzing barley 3 times. Then there would be no point in using the jutsu and toying with them if it was that taxing and he regressed near his regular speed so quickly. That speed gap is huge even if he just dropt to sub relatavistic after a few ice mirror attacks that would still make 1 tome being able to percieve him far more impressive then his MS and EMS feats.

Most importantly Haku notes he has been trying to hit his vitals to no avail and Sasuke says he was able to adjust and narrarowly escape fatal blows from haku even without sharingan and then he was able to actually dodge his mirror attack with his 1 tome. After that his attacks would have been compelty seen through by sauske if he didnt need to block for or move naruto too. Esentially it makes no sense, his intial first few attacks are just unquantifably FTE.

 

[Golden_Void]

"Okay. SO my thoughts about the whole Haku stuff with his mirrors being lightspeed...and it being an outlier.....

....I actually don't think its an outlier. At least for Haku anyway.

So why isn't this an outlier? From what I believe at least, the answer's simple: Haku wasn't light speed in either moment, but lower than it, even drasically. "

What

1. His attacks are getting weaker =/= his speed is getting slower

Haku actually commends Sasuke on his movements, not that Haku is getting any slower.

"My eyes are getting used to it" "He seems to be slowly learning to follow my movements" "This boy can see something"

"Dodging all my attacks at the last second"

And this is Sasuke in the process of awakening his sharingan for context.

Haku: "There's a limit to how long I can keep this speed up"

This heavily implies that Haku is using up chakra to maintain the same speed he's been using. In fact, the only time speed is concerned, is when he tries to attack 9T Naruto who is on the ground which fails, then he tries to run from the ground to the next mirror. Sasuke actually wondered if Haku was trying to kill him or not at one point. And he had a two tomoe sharingan, not one.

2. Haku wasn't losing speed, Sasuke was catching up by increasing his own speed and perceptions with the sharingan.

3. They're clearly still inside the mirrors. This is the very next page. Haku says his jutsu works by the mirrors reflecting his body. Mirrors reflect light, and light moves at light speed, however since Haku isn't light, even at that distance he'd still be going over 99% of light speed. With mirrors, he can maintain constant speed without any reduction, aka "I have to hurry to the next mirror" wouldn't be a thing.

4. Not really PIS, since we already know how both their powers activates (moreso Naruto, who boosts easily by rage).

5. >phasing through mirrors

lolnope

lolnope^2

lolnope^2^2

We've never seen a mirror Haku was physically in get broken, but assuming it did, mirrors still produce reflections, so he's technically still physically present. Though not technically, but definitely, as nothing implies he does any sort of phasing, otherwise he'd go through the mirror itself and anyone he attacked.

Mabui stated the raikages could survive light speed movement do to their iron tough skin, but Tsunade needed her regen to survive, and either would one shot Haku who almost got two pieced by Naruto.

 

[Rocker1189]

What you said about then is wrong. It was never stated that the speed itself was the issue but the process of the transportation is not for humans.

 

[Rocker1189]

I disagree, Haku couldn't have possibly gone from lightspeed to supersonic tier after using his mirror blitzing barley 3 times. Then there would be no point in using the jutsu and toying with them if it was that taxing and he regressed near his regular speed so quickly. That speed gap is huge even if he just dropt to sub relatavistic after a few ice mirror attacks that would still make 1 tome being able to percieve him far more impressive then his MS and EMS feats.
Most importantly Haku notes he has been trying to hit his vitals to no avail and Sasuke says he was able to adjust and narrarowly escape fatal blows from haku even without sharingan and then he was able to actually dodge his mirror attack with his 1 tome. After that his attacks would have been compelty seen through by sauske if he didnt need to block for or move naruto too. Esentially it makes no sense, his intial first few attacks are just unquantifably FTE.

Except you guys are both forgetting one huge plot point in that whole arc, that Haku did not actually want to kill either of them. That was a massive plotpoint.

Also I am pretty sure that for Haku to attack people he is in fact not going at light speed when he is jumping inbetween mirrors he is much much slower however he can then reflect himself on any surface of the mirror that is when you see multiple Haku's as he goes for a sneak attack from blind spots.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I disagree with @Unite however I'm in school so I'll wait until later to make a rebuttal back.

 

[Zensum]

Except you guys are both forgetting one huge plot point in that whole arc, that Haku did not actually want to kill either of them. That was a massive plotpoint.

Also I am pretty sure that for Haku to attack people he is in fact not going at light speed when he is jumping inbetween mirrors he is much much slower however he can then reflect himself on any surface of the mirror that is when you see multiple Haku's as he goes for a sneak attack from blind spots.

@P1 He litterally says "I shall kill you both", felt he killed sasuke after he blocked for naruto, and says he was trying to hit sasukes vitals for a fatal attack to no avial as he was narrowly dodging at base even tho he was getting blitzed.

@P2 Good you agree hes not LS.

 

[Rocker1189]

1. I think that it was obvious that he did not really want to kill them.

2. Yeah he is not light speed when literally jumping in between mirrors but he is lightspeed when traveling between them using light.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay my rebuttals.

1.) "Getting weaker =/= his speed getting slower". I guess that would be true if we were strictly talking about power/AP here. But we arent, and I covered this already actually. The Ice Mirror jutsu is strictly and clearly a speedy based move that primarily focuses on speed. It has nothing to do with Haku's power at all. As such, him "getting weaker" is covering his speed getting slower and there is absolutely no evidence of it refering to his strength. Even in the anime canon, Sasuke blatently says his movements are slowing and without a proper contradiction, there's no reason not to go off it.

2.) Few things wrong. First, that isn't the correct translation, so using this would be a better bet . Same thing for the "last second" comment since Haku never says that . Second, regardless of which translations used, I dont see how this really debunks anything. Commending Sasuke doesn't mean Haku's own speed was decreasing. It just further proves, like I already clarified, that Sasuke's own speed was increasing to match Haku's, which again was on the brink of decreasing. This returns to my above point on how his speed was slowing due to Haku's extended use of the jutsu and chakra depletion.

3.) Once again. WRONG translation and I even linked this in my OP . Haku never says anything about being able to keep up the same speed. He clarifies that there's a limit to how long he can keep using the jutsu period. So that implication is straight up wrong. In addiition, even if we gave the "same speed" stuff the benefit of the doubt, it still doesnt mean Haku's speed was still the same from the start. The difference between Light speed and even sound speed is ridiculously huge. Hypothetically, we can assume Haku's speed dropped from Light speed to massively hypersonic. MHS is a speed tier thats very very much higher than T7 in this arc, so it would still take Sasuke a remarkable amount of time to catch up with even that, let alone LS.

Also, the only time speed is concerned? Literally the entire fight from using the mirrors onward is speed concerned since Haku was speed stomping them repeatedly until Sasuke did what he did.

Finally, Sasuke curious about Haku not killing him? Not according to this he isn't . But i'll address it anyway. He was curious about it because Haku was soft and didn't want to kill either of them until the absolute need to.

4.) Addressed this previously. Haku was losing speed because of the depletion of chakra for the mirror jutsu and your scan of him keeping his speed isn't the correct one.

5.) Still inside the mirrors? This point...doesnt debunk anything at all. Of course they were still inside the mirror prison, that wasn't what I was going against. When I said "outside the mirrors" I meant Haku wasn't inside them and was grabbed by Naruto before he could re-enter them, confirming he wasn't moving at any speeds higher than this base since he explicty needs the mirrors to do that

6.) Yes and how doesnt that mean PIS? Haku was stomping them the entire time and because this was a signifigant fight for T7, they had to win somehow. So awakening Sharingan and Nine tails toward the end to somehow gain an upper hand on someone who couldve won at any time? Idk about everyone else, but to me, that sounds like PIS.

7.) Literally all those scans you posted to debunk phasing prove otherwise. The first one, Haku phases out to catch the Kunai. The second one, he's repeatedly phasing in and out of the mirrors to attack Naruto. Third one proves the second point as well. The only thing this shuts down is passive phasing, which I never argued. Active phasing is still on the table. And by actively, I mean him choosing when and not to phase, which is obviously shown when he's entering the mirrors. Even the anime supports this.

Finally, Haku isnt in the same boat as Tsunade and A because unlike them who relied on physical durability, Haku used phasing/intangibility on some level, as ive supported, which can easily survive moving at those kinds of speeds.

TDLR: The rebuttal was using scans in which almost all of them were incorrect translations, which bring about different contextes in the material, shutting the bases of it down right there. Some points had nothing to do with what my OP was arguing against and others I seemed to counter.

 

[Golden_Void]

>Incorrect translations

They're much better. Your translations (even though they're likely from viz) are very general, and they call Haku's technique teleportation (which makes this thread pointless), among other things. At any rate, they more or less say the same thing, the wording is just different.

1. Saying his attacks getting weaker = his speed decreasing is grasping at straws, and that's not close to being hinted among multiple translations. Less chakra = weaker attacks, and Haku's reserves have been dwindling since he used the technique.

2. "Sasuke blatently says his movements are slowing and without a proper contradiction, there's no reason not to go off it."

"Second, regardless of which translations used, I dont see how this really debunks anything. Commending Sasuke doesn't mean Haku's own speed was decreasing. It just further proves, like I already clarified, that Sasuke's own speed was increasing to match Haku's, which again was on the brink of decreasing. This returns to my above point on how his speed was slowing due to Haku's extended use of the jutsu and chakra depletion."

The only source of Sasuke saying Haku is slowing down is your own headcanon, otherwise you would've already provided scans explicitly stating that. Haku actually states multiple times that this is the case.

"My eyes are beginning to adjust to the environment"

"I've been targeting fatal points, but he's evaded every attempt"

"While he's dividing his focus between me and Naruto, he's gradually gaining speed, beginning to catch up to my moves"

"He's narrowly avoiding every strike I make" "You move well"

"He shows amazing skill, training, and physical attributes, but he must be past his limits by now"

"I'm certain the longer we fight, the greater your ability to see me will become"

"It just further proves, like I already clarified, that Sasuke's own speed was increasing to match Haku's, which again was on the brink of decreasing."

Thanks for pretty much restating what I said.

3. ?????????????????

4. Haku losing speed isn't supported by anything, considering he blatantly says the longer he fights Sasuke, the more he will see his movements.

5. I get what you mean, still my point 4 counters that. Unless we're going to say Part 1 9T Naruto vastly outstats Sai and other jonin class ninja . Haku reflecting himself to the ground instead of mirrors doesn't mean he goes from light speed to supersonic in less than 10 meters.

6. It's not really PIS, Haku was getting trashed by Sasuke in speed until he used crystal ice mirrors. Both sides had an arsenal.

7. You're using phasing and intangibility like that's supported or stated by the manga or databook. Now you go from phasing in general to active and passive phasing. G r a s p i n g at straws . The words you're using means he would have no physical presence. The ice is physically there, Haku is visibly physically stepping into the ice, etc. Whenever Naruto or Sasuke goes to attack a mirror, he runs to another one.

 

[Golden_Void]

And what's the point of this post actually? Haku without mirrors got blitzed by Sasuke, and to say Haku is light speed when he could be tracked by Sasuke with and without a sharingan is wrong, and it's an outlier no matter which way you put it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Your scans being much better

Based on what? With all due respect, my scans come from an actual well known respected manga site, *********, as opposted to yours which look like any one can simply find over google images with no sources to back up where they come from. While they seemingly do have the same words according to you, context matters for a reason and the scans we've presented are surely different in terms of said context.

1.) It isn't grasping for straws if the move in question is one that, again, focuses strictly on speed. It has nothing to do with Haku's power. At all.

And you say theres no support, yet even the secondary anime canon strictly does and nothing contradicts it. If you claim "getting weaker" means attack instead of speed, evidence of it is needed.

2.) So bringing the anime in now suddenly means headcanon??

And the purpose of posting all those scans means what exactly? That Sasuke was able to increase his speed capabilities to match Hakus? Via on the brink of awakening Sharingan? This is all what I literally clarified from the beginning of this thread, so I don't see the point in repeating something we both know happeend and is true. I didnt restate anything. You have.

3.) I'll assume "???????????" means there's no counter for this point then?

4.) "The more he will see his movements" is because Haku is losing speed, as both my scans and the anime prove. Of course Sasuke will match his increasing speed with Hakus if Haku's own speed is decreasing at the same time. And unless you have something else than a scan I debunked earlier, its clearly obvious that he was losing speed. Chakra depletetion reduces the users stamina energy reserves, which of course then decrease physical stats such as speed. The ice mirror jutsu, a speed based jutsu nonetheless, uses up tremendous Chakra from Haku when using it for extended periods.

5.) It...kinda does. Haku explicity uses the mirrors to travel at said lightspeed, which is strictly mirror to mirror and is depicted that way for almost the whole fight. If leaving the mirrors and hitting the ground, he must re-enter said mirrors in order to move at those speeds, otherwise needing the mirrors from the start would be completely pointless for him. These mirrors are what allows Haku to move at any speed higher than his base in the first place.

6.) First off, not trashed. Sasuke got lucky by using a moment to catch Haku off-guard with his chakra. More importantly second, that still doesnt mean PIS isn't involved. From the moment he used those mirrors, Haku practically already won the fight and would have won if Sasuke and Naruto didnt ass-pull near the end to gain the upperhand. "Both sides having an arsenal" is hardly a counter to this when one was an in-experienced genin using everythihg he had and the other was a jonin-level prodigy taking it easy who didnt reveal half of what he had. And when he did, the fight turned out badly for the former(s).

7.) First of all, I dont even need a statement or databook confirmation when its literally outright shown, unless its suddenly not ice? Second, it was your assumption that my phasing argument meant ingeneral. He moves to another mirror because he's clearly physical when inside them. The only time phasing or anything as such happens is when he travels to enter the mirrors. And it isn't like Haku turning his phasing on and off wouldnt hinder him when 99% of the time he's speedstomping.

And the fact your asking for my posts point proves you didnt fully read it through. The point of this post is to prove Haku moving at these speeds isnt an outlier for him, but only outliers for Naruto and such. The instances of Sasuke blitzing or tracking, or Naruto tagging him, are all when Haku's speed is lower than said Lightspeed, even consderably. Haku would only be capable of LS when he's at least near to having a full chakra supply instead of using it up when overusing the jutsu, which depletes his speed and stamina for obvious reasons. Giving Haku either short bursts of Light Speed or a short timeframe of being Lightspeed before his chakra levels go down and it brings his speed down.

 

[Golden_Void]

It's an outlier for Haku or anyone, so regardless your points are moot. Anything else?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have school tomorrow so whatever rebuttals come up later i'll look at tomorrow to address.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Rice, you cannot just ingnore my entire argument and continue to claim "outlier!" over and over without even addressing the points. Thats circular reasoning. If you believe its an outlier, then continue arguing and explaining why instead of just dismissing my rebuttals.

 

[LordGinSama]

Again this is an outlier. Really don't understand how you think otherwise. It's an outlier no matter how you look at it.

 

[Omimi]

its a Bloodline Limit so u cant just claim outlier only sasuke and naruto part is outlier

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then actually argue it instead of just claiming so @Knight

Because doing the latter isnt going to make it fly but only show lack of rebuttals toward it not being an outlier.

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't need to argue whenever it's blatantly obvious that Light Speed even if it's in short bursts this early on in the series is an outlier. I'm not gonna sit here and write multiple paragraphs telling you why it's an outlier whenever it's painfully obvious. You just need to stop desperately trying to push "Muh light speed Nardo." It's wank and everyone knows it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, you actually do need to argue it. Thats not how this works.

You can't just say outlier and not even give an argument for why it is. Thats being in denial and lacking actual counters for why it isn't an outlier. If you think otherwise, argue it. Otherwise, its not valid. We do that for every CRT, this isn't any different. A claim with no basis is not enough.

And for the record, I don't appreciate the "desperate" stuff. It isnt like anyone but Haku would be getting this anyway, and thats being very generous. Plus, I could care less if this is rejected. The only thing I care about is the reasons not to, and so far, there's hardly any.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

I Agree this is an outlier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Please again, can someone at least argue for why its an outlier? Counter my points?

Spamming "its an outlier" over and over isnt justifcations at all.

 

[Golden_Void]

There's nothing to be argued. Light speed Madara was rejected as an outlier, and he needed god tier powerups to achieve that. Light speed Haku hilariously undercuts that feat.

What's funnier though, is that two tomoe Sasuke could react to Haku, but Zabuza said Kakashi wouldn't be able to beat him, even though he unlocked a 3 tomoe sharingan and MS (though not as far as the story is aware), plus he's a lightning timer.

Edo Haku got slammed by both Guy and Lee coming out of his mirror, and managed to catch an off-guard Sai. Nothing ever stated Haku needed a full set of mirrors to move at light speed, all it takes is one. He said the mirrors transport him at light speed, so one mirror can transport him at LS with decreasing speed, whereas being surrounded by mirrors gives him constant speed with no reducton.

"Light speed" Haku is just as bad as "light speed" Dyspo.

O u t l i e r

"The possibility for Madara Uchiha and the rest of the Naruto franchise characters to move at light speed has already been discussed and debunked repeatedly. Currently, any repetition of said discussion is highly annoying and not subject to discussion."

 

[Golden_Void]

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