About Dormammu Power Level

[Antvasima]

I don't think that we should feature statistics keys for M-bodies, as they differ too greatly in power from occasion to occasion.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

When I said M-Body I was talking about Universal Eternity

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Dormammu in particular has varied from being harmed by Cyclops, The Hulk, Absorbing Man, and Frankenstein's Monster, to beating up Eternity, possibly Multi-Eternity at that.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Absorbing Man took power from Dormammu's crown, and beat him up. As we can see, Creel says he has gained so much power it feels like he can tear anything in two, and Hill also comments that Agent Koeing will make a pun about Creel drawing Dormammu's fire, after which the Howling Commandos beat him as well. Similarly he was depowered by Umar against Hulk as well

For Cyclops, it was mainly due to Scott's mutation by the Phoenix Force and since the battle took place outside of Dark Dimension (where Dormammu is weaker)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Most of the reasons Dormammu was defeated were because of PIS/Outlier stuff. Same with most other Skyfather beings, unless they are on a higher-end level.

Most Skyfather and above have a lot of 2-A or Far Higher higher-ends which if used together makes it a lot more consistent. The main problem I see is the work required to find out who scales to who , and where to draw the line at what tier to place them at . I'll gather the neccessary feats and characters to try and make this work out better.

 

[Antvasima]

The Absorbing Man has been overloaded by the Hulk and Quasar in the past. It makes no sense for him to be able to absorb enough power to challenge Dormammu, nor for Frankenstein's Monster to do the same.

Your rationalisation about Cyclops also seems very farfetched, and Dormammu should not be weaker to such a staggering degree outside of his realm. He has also easily beaten up Giraud, another Phoenix Force user, in an earlier story.

 

[Driger-God]

The Absorbing Man has been overloaded by the Hulk and Quasar in the past. It makes no sense for him to be able to absorb enough power to challenge Dormammu, nor for Frankenstein's Monster to do the same.
Your rationalisation about Cyclops also seems very farfetched, and Dormammu should not be weaker to such a staggering degree outside of his realm. He has also easily beaten up Giraud, another Phoenix Force user in an earlier story.

About Cyclops, Frankenstein Monster, and The Absorbing Man is PIS, it's like the Spiderman vs Firelord.
It seems that you looking for motive for no upgrade this character

With all respect.
But, Dormammu ever can fight with cosmic entities, and skyfather, and you know it...
Then why you ask: "Why random super-hero hit Dormammu?"?
When answer it's very simple, this story is inconsistent(PIS), the nature of Dormammu is High Dimensional, and your feats are universal and multiversal.
I don't want disrespect you. But, don't make sense...

 

[Antvasima]

I already said that I am fine with an upgrade, but we have to try to evaluate which other character profiles that should be upgraded as well to avoid inconsistencies.

 

[Driger-God]

I already said that I am fine with an upgrade, but we have to try to evaluate which other character profiles that should be upgraded as well to avoid inconsistencies.

I understand now, sorry for it.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Driger-God]

About it...
Duality system is good option for it.
Most part of Marvel functioning by duality system(Equal Force) is consistent..
Dormammu, Odin, Zeus, Strange(Entity), Pluton, Poseidon, Hela, and some others can scale for 2-A or 1-C with Tiboro(6D), or higher.
Above of sky father, hell lord, and fear lord, exist the Celestials, Kubik/Kosmo, Galactus, In-Betweener and others, as extra-dimensional entities(Lovecraft entities, Cyttorak, and other), the sky-father are mortals for they.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Ant I'm doing that right now. Going through each character whose Skyfather and above is difficult, so it may take awhile to gather enough feats to determine. But so far they do have a lot of high-end feats of 2-A and above that seems to coincide with one another. 2-A seems like a safe lowball for said level characters, but they may be far higher... Depends on how people think about it.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I don't know about Quasar, but Hulk was releasing extradimensional energy at the time, energy that Apocalypse wanted to use to subdue the Celestials themselves (might have had something to do with Franklin)

Frankenstein's monster and Howling Commandos beat up a severely depowered and wounded Dormammu

Hell lords are severely weaker outside their domains though, like Mephisto is weaker than Warlock outside Hell, but equal to Odin inside it

I don't know about Giraud, but losing to a Phoenix host ain't a low end, depending upon the context

As for your question about who would scale, like Seed mentioned, no one below skyfather level beings has anything to do with this upgrade

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

About Franklin... It was him. He gave him that energy in the first place as of Heroes Reborn... But lost it afterwards ( Even though Franklin did not mean to ) .

Anyways... Here is what I have so far. It isn't perfect... And definitely does not contain all the entities who scale and their respective high-end feats, but it'll have to do.

 

[Antvasima]

The Hulk overloaded the Absorbing Man via his own power level at the time, as did Quasar. Creel should not have been able to challenge Dormammu, and the latter was wounded not depowered, as far as I am aware.

Dormammu also defeated Eternity and the Phoenix outside of his own realm. It should npt make him weaker to a degree where Cyclops can severely injure him.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Low 1-C skyfathers seems far too high, given that even 3-B are fairly high showings for Odin compared to his general level. Tom Brevoort has even stated outright that Marvel editorial does not consider Odin to be anywhere near that scale.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I still believe we can go 2-A for Skyfathers + Above Level beings. Also, I believe we shouldn't go by the editorial...

Tier 1 may be iffy... Depends on what others think.

 

[Antvasima]

Odin does not have feats anywhere near a 2-A scale either, as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

I would mych prefer input from Sandman31 and Matthew regarding which characters that should scale.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

The Hulk overloaded the Absorbing Man via his own power level at the time, as did Quasar. Creel should not have been able to challenge Dormammu, and the latter was wounded not depowered, as far as I am aware.

Dormammu also defeated Eternity and the Phoenix outside of his own realm. It should npt make him weaker to a degree where Cyclops can severely injure him.

Not true, as my scans showed, Hulk was releasing extradimensional energy at that time, which Apocalypse desired to compete with Celestials (in the same comic Hulk overloaded him)


Samson mentions the energy agai

I found the actual context, the throne which Creel absorbed was made up of a special element that is a sort of Kryptonite for all magic users.

Man Thing also had the same element with him

Dormammu never beat Eternity, though

If you are referring to Defenders arc, that Dormammu was exponentially amped by bonding with Umar, and had Doctor Strange's amulet on top of it (which served as a plot device)

 

[Antvasima]

The Hulk was split in half at the time, one in the Heroes Reborn world created by Franklin, and one in the regular Marvel Universe, this connection fed him energy and gave him a higher base strength level than normal, and deprived him of his rage factor, but it certainly did not make him comparable to the Celestials. In fact, Apocalypse was able to overpower him.

Dormammu managed to give Eternity a challenge on his own, and with a boost from Umar's power added to his own, he managed to overcome the entity.

You seem to be correct about the rock causing damage to magic users, but most of the Howling Commandos managed to hurt Dormammu without using it.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Hulk himself wasn't comparable to Celestials, he was serving as a conduit to power that was comparable to Celestials. Which is why Nur wanted him for

There was no challenge, Dormammu admitted Eternity was beyond him. Domrammu even admitted that until being boosted by Umar and Strange's amulet, he was but a mere flickering thought compared to Eternity

You prolly don't know, but the magic rock is capable of killing wizards. Dormammu takes several attacks from Creel who was empowered by it, then is beaten by the Howlers

Saying this is a low end is nothing else than saying that Batman beating a Superman who has been stabbed with Kryptonite prior to the fight is a low end, which is illogical

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I strongly disagree about the Hulk. Creel even stated himself that he was overloaded by the Hulk's own power, but if Dormammu's rock was Kryptonite to magic rather than about raw power, I suppose that it is a moot point, so I agree about the Superman and Batman comparison.

In any case, Dormammu was able to hold his own against Eternity for an extended period of time before being defeated, and adding the powers of Umar and the Amulet of Agamotto to himself shouldn't make that much of a drastic difference in terms of his power level.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Going by what was stated in the comic, Umar+Dormammu+Amulet was an exponential increase

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Also, I also disagree with Low 1-C sky fathers

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that doesn't make any sense, and I also do not see such a statement in the scan that you provided.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I was referring to another scan

Beings like you, are mere flickering thoughts, in my measureless consciousness

...And Dormammu agreed. If he was previously that inferior to Eternity, there was no way for him to beat the latter by a mere 3X boost

He was also scared of Eternity in classic comics

 

[Antvasima]

There were no statements of exponential boosts, and technically everything inside of Eternity is part of his consciousness, but in Marvel logic things like the Infinity Gems can still exceed him, despite that they are inside of him as well.

Dormammu also personally challenged Eternity on his own, and it took quite a while for the latter to prevail.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

There is no proof that it's linear boost either, what we do know is that the feat doesn't scales to Dormammu's baseline power level. Infinity Gems in general don't exceed Multiversal Eternity, they only exceed Universal Eternity

In this context, it is about power levels, not just state of existence

The battle lasted for a couple of pages, after which Dormammu (by his own admission) realized he had no chance in victory

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that it took several pages for Eternity to defeat Dormammu. It was not an enormous power difference.

In addition, technically everything inside of universal Eternity should be a part of his power sources and consciousness, but there nevertheless exist beings and objects within him that exceed his power.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

2 pages, that's not a lot

Like I said, in this context it's about power, as Dormammu admit what he is saying, then goes on to say "but this time, I and Umar will bend Eternity to our will, and remake all creation"

Infinity Gems are a special case, as they act as extension of will, fueled by user's mastery of attributes and their confidence, and are only limited by the wielder's imaginatio

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it was not a casual one-shot, so again, the difference between them should not be extreme.

And again, anything within Eternity should logically be part of his power sources, but there are still some beings and objects contained within him that nonetheless exceed him.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, this is derailment from the original purpose of this thread, so we should drop the discussion and focus on determining how to handle potential upgrades.

In addition, I need the help of Sandman31 and Matthew Schroeder.

 

[Driger-God]

Also, Low 1-C skyfathers seems far too high, given that even 3-B are fairly high showings for Odin compared to his general level. Tom Brevoort has even stated outright that Marvel editorial does not consider Odin to be anywhere near that scale.

Marvel editoral is inconsistent, great part of feats scale for 2-A ou above.
Fight with Seth, threatening the multiversal, and scale com Set, scale with Surtur, Surtur is capable of burn the Omniverse, burning the Other World, Other World includes all space, and time in creation.
Odin killed Hela , at that moment, Hela is death in the all existence , and revive Hela after.

 

[Antvasima]

Sandman31 told me that he will have limited access to the Internet for a week or two, so we will likely have to wait for a while with this revision.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I know we have to wait for Sandman, but in any case I believe sky fathers wouldn't scale to Dormammu. They are comparable to him in cosmic significance, not raw power. Just like Nightmare was comparable to Eternity

About the Otherworld feat, there is some context that's needed to be taken into consideration, Surtur build the unmaker fire with the help of energy that Manchester gods from Otherworld fed him, and the Manchester gods and Otherworld were supposed to be his conduit to allow the energy to escape Earth 616 and engulf all realities. When Thor killed Surtur, the energy he collected, with his conduits destroyed escaped, and Odin BFR'd/sealed it away

So at best, this would be a 2-A sealing/BFR feat for Odin, and as such I don't see him being scaled to Dormammu when the latter has explicit higher dimensional statements and feats

The only characters I see being scaled to Dormammu's possibly Low 1-C ratings are Eternity, Infinity,and Thanos (with Infinity Gauntlet key).

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. Just adding a scaling chain to help out with who could be affected by this ... Essentially it is those who were able to keep up with Restricted/Universal Eternity and the Universal Abstracts ( Since they are at least comparable in power to Dormammu ) . This would directly effect:

• Celestials: ( Even the weakest amongst them were explicitly stated beyond Odin & Skyfather tier by quite a bit consistently . Levels of Infinity beyond the Cosmic Cubes, who are treated far above Dormammu by Kubik )
• Living Cosmic Cubes: (Via scaling to Universal Eternity & Infinity. I still think Living Cosmic Cubes deserve a different key because they were canonically stated to hold back their full power, and their full power was stated to be Omni-Dimensional twice , and Kubik always refers to dimensions as higher-dimensional.. But that is for another time. )
• Dr. Strange ( Defeated In-Betweener and was considered impressive by Eternity . In-Betweeener also has a direct 2-A & Tier 1 statement & feat even in his Universal Manifestation ... Stated literally in his first appearance as destroying all layers/levels of reality... When he was merely a Universal manifestation)
• Franklin Richards ( Compared to the Celestials multiple times. Stated even at a much weaker point in his power to be strong enough to fight In-Betweener . Was a threat to Universal/Multiversal Eternity & Infinity, as Roma thought of the Eternity that viewed Franklin as a threat as embodiment to All Existence, and she views all levels of creation... Plus has a relationship woth Eternity... So her credibility lines up )
• Rex Randolph ( Via scaling to The Universal Abstracts. )
• Galactus' & Mephisto ( Mephisto was compared to the Cosmic Cube in his realm.... Which Kubik confirmed ... And Galactus stalemated him in said realm with far less power than he did against Franklin and the Mad Celestials ... Which actually makes the Tier 2.1 feats more consistent in hindsight )

There are actually quite a fair bit more to cover... But that is it.

 

[Antvasima]

Seed is probably mostly correct, and I am very frustrated that nothing is happening with the Marvel cosmic entities revisions at this point, but my hands are unfortunately likely tied as long as Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, and Sera EX are unable to handle it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Just going to have to be patient on our end... Eventually it'll happen.

Also just to say it Franklin has a direct , no confusion or interpretation needed , "Omni-Dimensional" feat ... As a baby. So yeah... Everything is lining up perfectly. There is not a lot of inconsistency as I was originally expecting between these characters.

For anyone whose wondering about the Cubes: The reason why I said Living Cosmic Cubes should have a key is because Beyonder as a Cube is stated to wreck the Multiversal Cosmology by Kubik ( He always refers to Higher-Dimensions whenever he talks about the Multiverse ... Highest Plane of Reality.... Levels of Infinity.... The Infinite Higher-Dimensions of Marvel.... Not in one appearance does he not refer to dimensions in that sense ) , and then add in Kubik's statements about Destroying Infinite Dimensions, then the Cosmic Cube's Omni-Dimensional Statements... And the fact Mephisto was compared to one by Kubik... And Yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that High 1-B cosmic cubes and Mephisto seems like a serious exaggeration, but I am not the best staff member to evaluate this.