About Author Avatars and Metafiction

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Andrew_Hussie

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Annoying_Dog

These are two characters who have profiles here in Versus Wiki, and both are Author Avatars. Their profiles rank their Tier as simply Unknown, and they have been around for over a year here, and in this time no one has arrived trying to push the author avatar of his favorite anime into a Tier 0.

So why is this not okay? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Writer

This is a legitimate question. DC Comics, specially under the authorship of Grant Morrison, has a history of completely ignoring the 4th Wall all the time. It's happened in Animal Man, it's happed in the Doom Patrol, in All-Star Supeman, in Final Crisis, in Multiversity, in Swamp Thing and in countless others.

The main villain of Multiversity, The Empty Hand, a character who has an 1-B feat (Destroying Multiverse 2 with a gesture ), is also a meta-textual representation. In Grant Morrison's own words, he is

"The real big bad guy at the end - he looks like the Ultra Comics character, but he's also the reader. The empty hand of the reader when he puts the comic down and everything ends. But like the bad guy, he can also come back in full force and say, "You'll meet me again." In Swamp Thing #40, he meets with beings who embodythe essence of stories at a metaphysical level .

Psycho Pirate with the Medusa Mask was recreating the Pre-Crisis Multiverse.

In Final Crisis, Superman uses the Wishing Machine to wish for a Happy Ending, and beings such as the Monitors look upon the whole DC Multiverse as a story.

In Multiversity, it is revealed that one reality is a comic book in another reality.

In late 80s, early 90s DC, there was a character who remembered the Pre-Crisis Multiverse and was revolted with how reality was, and was thus locked in Arkham.

I can probably find a dozen other major examples.

The Reality-Fiction Interaction page here accepts beings such as Mxy as viewing entire universes as fictional, or Azathoth seeing a beyond-dimensional construct as fictional, so why can't DC's The Writer qualify?

I would like to hear the opinion of staff members on the matter. From what I can observe, some were already with me in the profile.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

You could also apply this to Bugs Bunny and Featherine along with most likely many other characters that have similar fourth wall breaking feats or abilities.

If The Writer cannot be here, then why can they?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@EMC

Exactly. From my understanding, Featherine is even implied to be the writer of Umineko, right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well the Annoying Dog, Andrew, Azathoth and Featherine are more like Fictional characters that views other fictional characters as fiction rather than being the outright author. Even if Andrew and AD are both author avatars, the former is far from Omnipotent and gets killed by his own thing, while the latter lives very well into his own setting.

I lack knowledge about this character, but it seems like The Writer is more like the author than the fictional character. Although I don't know the reasons for the profiles, just giving my thoughts.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

@EMC
Exactly. From my understanding, Featherine is even implied to be the writer of Umineko, right?

Well, from what I understand she is widely considered to be an Author Avatar. Although that idea might get shot down considering there is the Creator to consider.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Saikou

The Writer is kind-of both. Even the stories in which he appears make it clear that he is still fictional, and not a real life being. After Animal Man's whole conversation with him, it pans away to show The Writer alone writing the whole issue.

I'd agree it'd be unreasonable to have The Writer at Tier 0 or Tier 1-A, but I'm just asking for him to have a profile, since he's an important part of DC Comics Cosmology.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

To add more to my idea, none of your examples try to imply that the fiction those character writes actually is the fiction WE are reading. Like it's a fictional version of a book, not THE real book.

As far as I know it doesn't seem to be the case with DC, as it imply the Comic Book The Writer wrote on the Overmonitor is the one we read right now IIRC

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, that's kinda that problem when there's absolutely NO 4th Wall in a Verse.

Final Crisis and Multiversity both seem to imply that everything is a story from one perspective or another, and that there's no distinction between it and reality. It even has characters reading comic books starring themselves... Which are also previous issues of the same story.

So yeah, it gets wonky, but I tend to just look at the Writer as a being beyond all creation, on the same level as The Overmonitor (Who is the page anyways)

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

Fictional characters are able to be 'above' other characters in a way that allows them to view other characters as fictional. They may even have been the ones to make those stories. But thats as long as they never try to overstep their bounds and claim to have written the world that the reader lives in as well, at that point it just becomes nonsense.

Annoying Dog and Featherine never try to cross that line, so their feats don't become nonsense.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that allowing a "The Writer" profile blends reality and fiction too closely, until it turns meaningless.

We cannot actively encourage more stupid debates about real people being a race of "beyond tier 0's" that are able to fight with ideas and pictures.

It is downright dangerous for the integrity of our wiki to allow such profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system.

Here is what DarkLK told me about this issue:

"In accordance with Umineko sometimes lady Bernkastel is you and also she is your closest friend. She is a cosmic abstraction beyond the world of human, including our own world. Featherine is beyond Bern for over than infinite layers.

As I recall Gan also above our world according to the cosmology of the Dark Tower.

Let's do tier minus infinity for such guys.

Or maybe simply be to use feats and cosmology without attempting to tie fiction and our world."

As for Andrew Hussie the character, as far as I understand, he was never treated as invincible, or a true part of our world, and the annoying dog was not even a human exact representation, just a joke character. Similarly "The Empty Hand" was an allegory, not the actual readers. He independently worked on his own as a character.

I ask you to please permanently and immediately drop this matter, as it opens up bad doors that potentially threaten the integrity of our entire system. Thank you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, at least let me save the coding of the profile so I can still keep it in a personal place like Google Docs or whatever. Restore if for like, 5 minutes and I'll save it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but you have to promise not to try to put it, or similar profiles, back up again, including after I have left. It is important for our system to keep fiction and reality as separate as possible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Then I'll drop this permanently.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And I promise.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. You can save the page now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Done, saved the coding on a wordpad. You can delete it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.