Abnormal Concepts that do not Fit

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

How do we treat concepts that fall outside of the usual classifications we use? Do we list them as something else on the profile or do we just not categorize them? I don't have much time to discuss but this was a rather burning question in my head, that I felt compelled to ask.

For context, the concepts I am wondering about are Concepts within the Nasuverse. Here is a short run through on how concepts work within Fate. If I have somehow made a mistake and these do perfectly fit into one of the categorizations, then please let me know.

They are transcendent of reality, but at the same time don't apply to all of reality unless they are specifically called into it. For example, concepts, specifically Origins, exist within the root, and leave there to enter reality. But they don't apply to all of reality, which the Types prove. Each World has its own set of concepts that apply and do not apply. for example, "Death" may exist on earth but it doesn't exist on Mars, Venus, Jupiter, etc. "Scaring," meaning long term or lasting damage, doesn't exist as a concept of Jupiter and Saturn either. So even tho these concepts have likely exited the root, they do not exist everywhere. Like, concepts do not apply to all or even most of the totality of existence within Fate. but at the same time, it seems that concepts can be invented or created. Edison proves that people can seemingly create concepts via invention, and these concepts seem to function on the majority of reality despite them not previously being a part of reality, Which works the exact opposite of how we see concepts interact with those that usually lack them

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't think there are any examples of forms of concepts that just don't fit our system, especially since every example you have listed is just

Certain concepts existing or not existing in certain places due to the mechanics of the verse. The concept creation is just type 4 going from that definition, since they're more classifications of objects and people rather than fundamental forces of reality.

I don't see how those doesn't fit our system.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

But the concepts are also totally transcendent of reality in a way similar to Platonic Conception, which prevents them from fitting into type 4. The Concepts of Fate do govern reality, which also separates them from being a type 4 concept.

Put it like this. In regards to Type 4 concepts: " Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. " Nasuverse concepts do govern reality, which the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception prove. Also, killing all mortals do not kill concepts either, since they are transcendent of reality and exist within the root

They are also transcendent like Type 2 Concepts, but not all of reality participates in them either, which disqualifies them from Type 2 Concepts

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Ok.

They don't govern all of reality, just sections of it?

Isn't that literally what type 3 is or at least what a lot of it is listed as?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, each World has their own set of concepts that apply and do not apply. Most of the concepts we are familiar with all apply on earth, but if we went to Mars, then the concepts that are unique to them would not apply to us. That being said, certain individuals do not participate in the concepts of their native world, such as Merlin with his Type 5 immortality

What makes them not Type 3 Concepts is that, even if you totally destroyed everything that involves the concept of a "Sword," for example, the abstract concept of a sword would still exist within the root, beyond reality. Hence, they are not type 3 Concepts

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Fair.

It's kind of a middle ground between 3 and 2 from what I can tell. I remember this sort of thing being treated as a sort of below baseline type 2, but I don't remember where or when.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, its basically a mix-and-match of those, but also has aspects of Type 4.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

However, it has aspects that none of those 3 have. Fate Concepts have an odd relation to chronology. Even if something has all the elements of what would usually make you set within a certain concept, if you come before that concept "entered the world" then you still won't be bound by it. The most common example is Ea not being a sword since it "predates" the concept

 

[DragonEmperor23]

hmmm

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Makkurona]

Sometimes heirarchies in Nasuverse make me dizzy.... Because it becomes a clusterfuck when talking about the real world, Reverse Side of The World, Imaginary Space, QTL etc, because they sound like different universes yet they seem only, at least perceived, or exist in Earth. Ngl when compared to Masadaverse, Masada is lot easier to understand though it's overshadowed by Nasuverse.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

What is the case you are talking about with Edison about inventing a concept?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

What is the case you are talking about with Edison about inventing a concept?

Edison's whole shtick is improving the inventions of others. He takes the concept, or invention, that they crafted, and improves them on a fundamental level. The main point of the skill from a lore perspective it that it, despite him being the "King of Inventors," he cannot create new concepts to the extent of others, and can only properly improve on the concepts created by others.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I think you are using the idea of concept a little too literal in here. That no platonic concept, that's just concept in the sense of "the idea around which this was made".

Edison can't create new stuff, but he can see how something is made and what it was made of and optimize it to the best possible it could be. It's like a super version of Reinforcement that makes a thing do what it was made to do better (knife cuts better, food is more nutritious or tastes better, construction materials get sturdier) etc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Iirc, I'm at work atm, but there's a statement saying noble phantasm's are a concept like a conceptual weapon, abstract existence, which I guess can be reinforced by Hercules conceptual attack negation???? Also, in strange fake there was an interesting usage of words between noble phantasm's and them being referred as some concept, but I don't remember how it went.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think you are using the idea of concept a little too literal in here. That no platonic concept, that's just concept in the sense of "the idea around which this was made".
Edison can't create new stuff, but he can see how something is made and what it was made of and optimize it to the best possible it could be. It's like a super version of Reinforcement that makes a thing do what it was made to do better (knife cuts better, food is more nutritious or tastes better, construction materials get sturdier) etc.

I'm not sure what you mean in this first part.

Yeah, I know Edison cannot create new stuff. That's what they draw as different from other inventors. He cannot create a new concept like they can, but he can improve their fundamental concept. He basically has conceptual enhancement, but other inventors are another issue

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am confused how you do not understand something so simple. We aren't talking about platonic concepts, just design concept. The concept of a knife is to cut, that's it's whole reason to be made, it's why it exists, it's why it's made. So what happens when you reinforce it? It cuts better. What happens when Edison uses his skill? He makes it the best cutting implement it can be for the design purpose it was made.

No metaphysical concept or whatever is being altered or played with. Unless you wanna believe people literally invent concepts by making new devices and that's what "concept" means, what Edison does is not what you think. You are using the word way too literally and I am confused why or how.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The description of his conceptual improvement makes it clear that it is, in fact conceptual. You also cannot pretend that he is merely restricted to concepts created by other inventors, so ""design"" concepts or whatever you call them don't work either. He can improve the concept of a "sword" for example which we know is transcendent of reality in the root. Also, no one is claiming that this is a platonic concept that he is manipulating, since if you didn't notice, I am actively arguing that Nasuverse concepts do not fit into any of the established categories.

Yes, that is literally what I am saying. I thought I made that clear from the start. People can invent new concepts. Also, no, it isn't restricted merely to design since the presidents used a similar ability to conceptually improve Edison as well.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except that is bullcrap, because the word concept is also used for reinforcement. You are conflating transcendental concepts with just the general concept of what something is meant to do.

You do know something using the word concept doesn't suddenly equate to dealing with literal higher forms that transcend all of existence? That some indo European tribe "created" the concept of transportation by domesticating horses for travel doesn't mean the concept didn't exists in a platonic sense before the horse was actually domesticated. You are taking things exceedingly literal for more or less no reason.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm not sure why concepts being used for improvement in any way disqualifies them from being the same as literally every other concept in the nasuverse.

You are right, but in the context where he is very clearly talking about improving the concepts themselves, thereby improving the objects in question. I'm not sure why you are bringing in stuff from outside of the established nasuverse cosmology, but your examples are wrong. At some point the concept of a sword exited the swirl of the root and entered reality, which means that this specific concept was not invented. The concept of transportation likely also falls into this class. However, that does not mean that the concepts crafted by other inventors were merely called out of the void instead of being forged in their own right. The nasuverse does not have platonic concepts, so i have no idea why you keep bringing them up. Don't forget that something like Tesla 'inventing' electricity was literally a mystery shattering event that warped possibility and impossibility into a new form that allowed mortals to use lighting the ways only gods once could. Don't pretend like inventing or discovering things works the way they do in our world.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except you are wrong. All information in existence is in the Akashic Records. All magecraft came from it, all magic as well, and by consequence all technology since Magic is just things that aren't possible with infinite resources and infinite time on that time period. I know even less where you are pulling this that "concepts" leave Akasha to go to reality. Concepts aren't a thing that are limited by space or by being in only one place.

And it does? What warped misinterpretation do you have about things? What Tesla did was symbolic because lightning was something only the gods could harness until Tesla found a way to work with it using technology. Hd didn't invent anything, he simply forged a way to use something that already existed using mundane means. Edison's skill even talks about "bestowing concepts" when all it's description says it does is no more than Reinforcement. It is literally Reinforcement, strengthening the use of something.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Okay.. So i finally got some time, and i found a crap-ton of information about their being "Conceptual weapons" and There is a crap-ton Noble Phantasms that are "Conceptual Barriers/Weapons" This would be Abstract Existence type 1, and to affect the barrier and weapons someone would need concept manipulation. Perhaps to some extent some characters could get very limited "Conceptual manipulation" But what type they become idk. I m still finding more lol but i'll post these soon.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"Okay, First off: What is Conceptual Armament?

• "Ôæá When the body of a vampire is destroyed, the Curse of Restoration will return it to normal in a short period of time. In order to truly and completely destroy a vampire, an external factor is needed to neutralize the Curse of Restoration faster than the curse can restore the body. Mystic items and such that are capable of doing so are called conceptual weapons.
  Ôæí A final trump card or secret ability used to dispose of members of the blood-sucking species who were never human at any point in time. [Colorful MOON Tsukihime: Tsukihime Glossary]

• 'A weapon' created to go beyond mere physical interference, and exert influence on concepts, natural providence, and space.
  For instance, something that nullifies "eternal youth" by overwriting it with the idea of "natural lifespan."
  Ciel's Seventh Holy Scripture contains the dual concepts of "reincarnation criticism" and "eternity without permanence."
  By the way, after being killed by Shiki, Arcueid had at first mistakenly assumed that he must possess some kind of powerful conceptual armament. [MB Act Cadenza PS2 Manual: Tsukihime Dictionary]" [1]

Ciel's Seventh Holy Scripture

• "The conceptual armament that Ciel is authorized to carry. An iron hammer created by Christianity in order to renounce the heretical doctrine of reincarnation.
  …Although, if reincarnation didn't really exist then it seems like it would be kind of unnecessary to prepare an anti-reincarnation weapon, right?
  Originally created by felling a miraculous beast said to consume souls, then using its horn as a key. The surface of the horn is inscribed with tightly-packed complaints about how "reincarnation is really lame."
  It was sanctified over the course of many years, but eventually fell into Ciel's hands.
  "A horn!? That's not practical at all. The higher-ups are totally out of touch!"
  Unable to hold herself back, she set about improving it.
  At any rate, since it's been almost a thousand years since it was first created, it even has an elemental living within it… though the essence of its personality may have been a bit warped by Ciel's remodeling." [2] [Tsukihime Data Collection: Tsukihime Dictionary]

Purification

• "In Tsukihime, the Church's method of dealing with the undead.
  Dead Apostles… beings which were once human, but became bloodsucking monsters. In order to return them to dust, a religious symbol that they were familiar with in life is required.
  The process works by driving the natural law from when they were a human into the vampire's body, baptizing and restoring their flesh, then returning them to dust. The conceptual armaments required to perform the ceremony of forcibly opening the composition of the flesh and locking it into its original state are called "Keys of Providence."
  To put it simply, a crucifix would be a typical example.
  However, a crucifix will only be effective on vampires that were originally Christians. If the official religion when they were human wasn't Catholicism, it becomes much more difficult for the crucifix to generate an effect.
  On the other hand, if the vampire used to be a Christian, then even if the human under attack is not a believer the crucifix will have an effect on its own.
  Of course, it goes without saying that the effect will be greatest if they are both believers." [3] [Tsukihime Data Collection: Tsukihime Dictionary]

Riesbyfe

• "Knight of the Shield. Captain of the Knights of the Inquisition led by the Holy Church.
  She participated in the subjugation of the Tatari three years ago, and faced Wallachia alone so that Sion could escape. Her fate afterward is unknown. She possesses the conceptual weapon "True Apocrypha Gamaliel," a gun-shield that superficially resembles a large stringed instrument.
  Though it seems Sion thought of her as reliable, they were torn apart before either of them realized they had become friends.
  During Vampire Sion's Last Arc, she attacks the enemy by recreating Riesbyfe's information. Apparently, since Riesbyfe was swallowed up by the Tatari, she was transferred into Vampire Sion when she inherited its power.
  Properly speaking, because everything swallowed by the Tatari is reconfigured as equivalent data, things that can be recreated separately from the Tatari like Riesbyfe are rare. Presumably, it's due to the presence of the True Apocrypha, acting as a shield and slowing her absorption." [4]

Barrel Replica

• "The mystic code possessed by Sion. A replica of the Black Barrel, one of the seven superweapons on display at the Atlas Institute. It is a conceptual armament of "natural lifespan," which demonstrates a toxin (attack power) in proportion to the predestined span of the target's life.
  Sion uses this Barrel Replica in her Arc Drive, but it seems that she isn't utilizing its original function.
  Also, though she discharges the energy horizontally in her Last Arc, Barrel Replica Obelisk, she is able to avoid being blown back by the recoil by anchoring her body to the ground with Etherlite." [5]

NOW WE GET INTO SOME SERVANT STUFF!!!!!

Kanshou and Bakuya

• "Ganjiang and Moye.
  The yin and yang twin swords that Archer likes to use.
  They were made by the famed Chinese swordsmith Gan Jiang, during the Spring and Autumn period.
  Gan Jiang was ordered by King Helū of Wu to cast him a worthy sword, but he found himself unable to make one that lived up to his own lofty standards and soon grew frustrated.
  Unable to merely stand by and watch this go on, his wife, Mo Ye, wagered her very life.
  It is said that to create a masterpiece that treads on the domain of gods, a human sacrifice is necessary.
  So it was that Mo Ye, standing before her beloved husband, cast herself into the furnace and used her own life to blend together the iron essence of the Five Mountains and the metal efflorescence of the Six Valleys.
  In the midst of his grief, Gan Jiang completed two swords: Ganjiang and Moye, twin swords embodying the concept of yin and yang.
  Because they were created using the finest ingredients and a human life, not only is their ability as swords quite high, but they also have a strong mystical aspect.
  Perhaps due to some design of Archer's, words that appear to be charms against evil are carved on the blades." [6]

La Pucelle

• "Crimson Holy Maiden. The suicide-type Noble Phantasm used by Ruler. It is a Conceptual Weapon that crystalizes one's mental landscape. It uses the Sword of St-Catherine, which Ruler never swung once in her lifetime, as its catalyst, and manifests the flames which once burned her to death. By using this Noble Phantasm, Ruler loses her own life. But in exchange for her life, she can annihilate anything in existence.
  Its designated rank of C refers only to its pre-activated state while the sword is still sheathed. The EX rank after activating is because its pure destructive power cannot be calculated. These flames only destroy that which she thinks must be destroyed. In other words, this Noble Phantasm cannot be used against simply a strong enemy or out of emotions like hate.
  These flames exist in order to save something, and in the novels she decided to use this Noble Phantasm out of her sense of duty to save the future of humanity." [7]

Antares Snipe

• "Heavenly Scorpion Shot. Archer of "Black"'s trump card, a sniping Noble Phantasm that shoots a shining star. It is a conceptual materialization of the Sagittarius constellation, but it is not as if it cannot activate without the constellation present. It has a tracking ability, naturally, and it doesn't even need for its true name to be released or for it to be filled with mana in order to activate. After all, as long as there is a night sky, "the star of the archer always aims at the scorpion," and so it only requires for him to move his fingers away from the already drawn bow. It has a secondary effect, but, like in the novels, there is extremely little chance of it being spoken of even if the Noble Phantasm is used. However, it can only shoot once every night. Considering the average length of a normal Holy Grail War, he would be limited to using it about fourteen times.
  Though its rank is high, it has the weakness of not having attack power worthy of special mention, so he has to try to achieve a one-shot kill as much as possible each time he uses it.
  In his battle against Mordred, Archer could not see any weak points in her armor and feared that she might escape after he used it, so he withheld using the Noble Phantasm." [8] [Fate/Apocrypha material: Fate/Apocrypha Encylopedia]

Red Overcoat

• "The clothes that symbolize Archer. They are actually a first-class conceptual armament.
  Rather than protecting the wearer from enemies, it would be more accurate to say that they provide protection against the outside world. Apparently they were made from the Holy Shroud of a certain saint." [9]

Rho Aias

• "Seven Rings of Heaven.
  In Greek mythology, the shield used by the hero Aias during the Trojan War.
  It was a bronze shield covered by seven layers of ox hide, and the only thing that proved capable of stopping the javelin of the great hero of Troy, Hector. (Though it managed to penetrate six layers of ox hide, the seventh layer was unbroken.)
  Afterward, its fame spread, and its existence was eventually sublimed into a "conceptual armament" boasting absolute defensive power against thrown weapons.
  It is the only defensive armament Archer can use proficiently.
  The Rho Aias that protected Shirou's spellcasting during the finale of the Rin route was not something he projected himself, but was actually made by Archer who was watching the battle from a distance." [10]

Then we got some Rougi Shiki related stuff

Line of Death

• "The constantly shifting, graffiti-like lines visible to Ryougi Shiki.
  The lines appeared on everything, and by slashing the lines with a knife, the object bearing the lines could be "killed." Since the lines posed no resistance, everything could be killed with the same ease.
  The Lines of Death are not the lines at which "an object can be easily cut apart," rather, they are the concept of longevity given form.
  Strictly speaking, it is not "tracing the lines causing the object to fall apart," but "ending the lifespan and killing the object."
  To put it into simpler terms, it is the erasure of existence rather than physical destruction.
  Ryougi Shiki is a living being, and she seemed to have an easier time seeing the end of a living being. This is because as a living being, it is easier to comprehend "the death of a living being." In order to see the Lines of Death of minerals or Concepts, she either has to become minerals, or use her brain and tap into her "imagination."
  In summary, the end (lines) of an existence that humans cannot comprehend is not visible." [11] [Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary]

Taiji

• "A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
  It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
  The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
  Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
  Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi1.
  As an aside, the magi in this story were all practitioners of Western magecraft who were incompatible with Chinese philosophies." [12]

=====*Translator's Notes =====

• '^ Liangyi is read as Ryougi in Japanese. Shiki's name alludes to this concept of Yin/Yang duality.'

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also that didn't render the way i want... i didn't mean for their to be that much bolding in print stuff... but i can't fix it..

anyways, i also have some interesting Fate/Strange fake stuff.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Jack was robbed of the concept called a "Noble Phantasm" [1]

In this sentence, it almost seems that backe in the age of Gods. The Gods embodies Concepts, and this character seems to refer to them as "Concepts" [2]

Noble Phantasms make up a part of their concept as Heroes [3]

There was a character able to create a conceptual barrier, but a Servant was able to break it down. [4]

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Lastly, we have Berseker Hercules ability to negate anything below a certain rank. Its close a theoritical concept magical concept called a Conceptual Weapon. [1]

That should reinforce Archer Emiya having Conceptual Weapons that are a Type 1 Abstract Existence, Gilgamesh too, and this could possiblely extend to blast type Noble Phantasms like Excalibur possibley having a "Conceptual Blast?" Conceptual Getsuga Tensho

Edit: Berskers Abilty can probably be compared to Karnas Armor but how they work is different/Operate is different/.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Maybe ask people who knows about Conceptual Manip to help interpret these? Just about the statements, not about the lores.

All I care is the 2-As get their Concept Manip2 and gets some infinitely above baseline slapped on them

 

[Makkurona]

I would just prefer correct to the lores...

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nop. They aren't itself conceptual, they just bring about conceptual effects on the person that gets hit. Kiritsugu's Origin Bullets fall under this, but despite bestowing a concept on the target that is hit, they are no more than bullets with a bit of his grounded up bones. So it is with Ciel's Seventh Scripture.

They themselves aren't conceptual things, they simply bring out effects that go beyond hurting the enemy with energy of some kind (kinetic, thermal, magical, etc).