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A WoD Discussion thread

DOOMSLAYER127 said:
So Lilith and Lucifer can be higher than 1A?
Click to expand...
High 1-A is tricky. I was more eluding there more than baseline 1-A. Though some context is needed for them perhaps how some Mages can control time and space and possibly exist beyond it, though that concept is tricky. The new system just doesn't fit in with WoD too well.
 
Since I skimmed through after getting bored reading 20th Anniversary. I will have to cheat and use the system where I search for some random key words to skip to chapters. Unless Udlmaster would like to chime in here. ;)
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
High 1-A is tricky. I was more eluding there more than baseline 1-A. Though some context is needed for them perhaps how some Mages can control time and space and possibly exist beyond it, though that concept is tricky. The new system just doesn't fit in with WoD too well.
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One doubt (stupid one but bear with me),
Can every supreme beings in fiction get Tier 0?
 
Lilith and Lucifer become High 1-A, because they're in the upper tier of Gods (Greater Celestines)

Lucifer went quite broad and has power over Thaumiel, which is the equal and opposite to Jehovah's Keter

Likewise, Lilith is equals with Jehovah (as stated at many points in the lore).

Jehovah is the source of Yahweh, a lower aspect of him which embodies the Tree of Life and the Unity of God's masculine aspects, in essence, Jehovah is his own Monad (and thus a false one)

Likewise, the Triat would be High 1-A, they are just all of existence in different modes.

Gaia and Yu Huang are also High 1-A as they created the Triat.

Bondye is unfathomable and unreachable to the other Gods and is thus High 1-A

Buddha is completely beyond comparison to the Gods as he exists in Nirvana and surpassed all of them.
 
I do remember reading a bit about Lilith. However, I have to say some of the three concepts are inaccurate. Both the Tree of Life and Death.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
True Form Gaia or just her in general? Who's stronger of the two? Gaia or Jade Emperor(Yu Huang)?
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Gaia in general

Yu Huang is apparently the superior of the two, having made Gaia to complete him.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
I do remember reading a bit about Lilith. However, I have to say some of the three concepts are inaccurate. Both the Tree of Life and Death.
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You mean Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge.
 


new ep of HTP just dropped.

So the second inquistion is mentioned. D is said to have been recokoned so he may be an imbued. Occum is a sorceror capable of teleporation and doing ritual to detect a ghoul via someone blood. The ghoul has vampire disciplines . Renold has gone on safaries for werebears. His son is said to have potential in figthing by big D.
 
Hi, can I ask if there are more scans for Monad for Supreme Being in WoD (like Primacy, Unity, Actus Purus statements)? Because I see a lot of characters with monadic system, but most of them are not Supreme Being. I've seen many people say that Essential Divinity qualifies for Tier 0, but I've read the character profiles and still don't feel that they have enough feats to qualify.
 
Frans_Kadmon said:
Hi, can I ask if there are more scans for Monad for Supreme Being in WoD (like Primacy, Unity, Actus Purus statements)? Because I see a lot of characters with monadic system, but most of them are not Supreme Being. I've seen many people say that Essential Divinity qualifies for Tier 0, but I've read the character profiles and still don't feel that they have enough feats to qualify.
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I'm not sure what you mean by feats.

You basically can't have any feats of strength for truly transcendental characters, just statements.

If they were to engage in things like "ULTRA MEGA EXPLOSION: NUKE ATTACK" and blow up the entire verse, that would just downgrade the verse. The characters like The Weaver, Wyrm and the Essential Divinity are so completely beyond understanding and outside of human rational that to bring them to that level would be to diminish them.

The Essential Divinity is as Apophatic as you can really get without resorting to not speaking when asked about them.
 
Udlmaster said:
I'm not sure what you mean by feats.

You basically can't have any feats of strength for truly transcendental characters, just statements.

If they were to engage in things like "ULTRA MEGA EXPLOSION: NUKE ATTACK" and blow up the entire verse, that would just downgrade the verse. The characters like The Weaver, Wyrm and the Essential Divinity are so completely beyond understanding and outside of human rational that to bring them to that level would be to diminish them.

The Essential Divinity is as Apophatic as you can really get without resorting to not speaking when asked about them.
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I see, I probably used the wrong word. How about statements for Monad, are there any? I understand that Essential Divinity is Apophatic (from reading both old and recent Cosmology Blogs), but shouldn't that be a key factor in qualifying it as Tier 0 without a solid statement?
 
Frans_Kadmon said:
I see, I probably used the wrong word. How about statements for Monad, are there any? I understand that Essential Divinity is Apophatic (from reading both old and recent Cosmology Blogs), but shouldn't that be a key factor in qualifying it as Tier 0 without a solid statement?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by "without a solid statement"
 
Beings who display or are just stated to be undifferentiated Monads (such as the Unified Triat) are below the level which the Essential Divinity exists.

For example, Yu Huang, the Jade Emperor/The August Personage of (in) Jade sits in Prior Heaven, a Changeless world beyond time as the embodiment of All Creation.

The Triat, both Supernal and Unified are said to be "beyond the Abyss, the chasm across which one cannot be carried by reason nor intellection for the minds of men are dark and dense, admitting of no subtleties. The Supernal is beyond knowing directly through any of the Realms Visible or Invisible, but is reflected in them all, as it is the source of them all."

And "That which is Supernal may not be named, for all names are finite and limiting, and thus below the Abyss."

When Quaes, this Spiritualist who knows much about the Supernal through "Polishing his dark orb making of one's mind a smooth reflective sphere, so that whatsoever is outside may be reflected upon the inside, and that which is furthest outside, which is to say, the Supernal, may then be seen at the centre of one's own being" tells us about "The Unity" which "Foremost among the Supernal, the First Principle of all Creation, is the Unity. lt is the source all things, the fount from which flow all the manifold forms and forces of all the worlds, and the end to which they all return when their cycle is complete. Within the Unity, All is One, All is within the One, just as the One is within All. Every extreme finds its complement, and all opposing aspects of Creation are reconciled."

So, the Triat themselves are already a Monad-like... thing that is fulfilling that requirement.

And the Triat aren't even the strongest, there's till Gaea, Yu Huang, Buddha and then you get to the Essential Divinity.
 
Udlmaster said:
Beings who display or are just stated to be undifferentiated Monads (such as the Unified Triat) are below the level which the Essential Divinity exists.

For example, Yu Huang, the Jade Emperor/The August Personage of (in) Jade sits in Prior Heaven, a Changeless world beyond time as the embodiment of All Creation.

The Triat, both Supernal and Unified are said to be "beyond the Abyss, the chasm across which one cannot be carried by reason nor intellection for the minds of men are dark and dense, admitting of no subtleties. The Supernal is beyond knowing directly through any of the Realms Visible or Invisible, but is reflected in them all, as it is the source of them all."

And "That which is Supernal may not be named, for all names are finite and limiting, and thus below the Abyss."

When Quaes, this Spiritualist who knows much about the Supernal through "Polishing his dark orb making of one's mind a smooth reflective sphere, so that whatsoever is outside may be reflected upon the inside, and that which is furthest outside, which is to say, the Supernal, may then be seen at the centre of one's own being" tells us about "The Unity" which "Foremost among the Supernal, the First Principle of all Creation, is the Unity. lt is the source all things, the fount from which flow all the manifold forms and forces of all the worlds, and the end to which they all return when their cycle is complete. Within the Unity, All is One, All is within the One, just as the One is within All. Every extreme finds its complement, and all opposing aspects of Creation are reconciled."

So, the Triat themselves are already a Monad-like... thing that is fulfilling that requirement.

And the Triat aren't even the strongest, there's till Gaea, Yu Huang, Buddha and then you get to the Essential Divinity.
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks a lot. I was actually going to reply earlier but it's not necessary now. Could I ask for scans or sources (a books)?
 
Udlmaster said:
Beings who display or are just stated to be undifferentiated Monads (such as the Unified Triat) are below the level which the Essential Divinity exists.
Click to expand...
I mean, wouldn't that just contradict them being actual Monads? If there's something that's even higher and more undifferentiated than them, then by definition they aren't completely undifferentiated or beyond qualitative distinction.
 
Not really, because "I AM THAT I AM" isn't even a being. They are by definition not anything. They aren't really a something or a subject.
 
A Monad would already encompass such a state of being though, assuming that it's considered possible within the verse in question. You can't have a Monad be surpassed by anything, including a "not-anything" that's still in some sense higher than "anything", because in that case "not-anything" is itself a kind of something. Superiority requires a difference in either quality of quantity, and both concepts are already inapplicable to a Monad. Essential Divinity Itself can definitely be one and probably is, but not the rest of the cosmology that's firmly below it.
 
The Monad cannot encompass something which doesn't have a state of being. This isn't a binary "Exists/Not-Exist" in such a value, there wouldn't be any applicable thing to apply.

If we look to some common definition for a Monad, such as Wikipedia we get:

According to Hippolytus, the worldview was inspired by the Pythagoreans, who called the first thing that came into existence the "monad", which begat (bore) the dyad (from the Greek word for two), which begat the numbers, which begat the point, begetting lines or finiteness, etc.[3] It meant divinity, the first being, or the totality of all beings, referring in cosmogony (creation theories) variously to source acting alone and/or an indivisible origin and equivalent comparators.[4]
Click to expand...

Nothing is outside of a Monad like this, and that is what The Essential Divinity is, nothing. You can't even discuss them from an in-verse perspective because when you do, you just create a new being and not the Essential Divinity.

More so, what we're talking about is like the Holy Trinity, God is Jesus, The Father and Holy Spirit but they are not each other.

In this way, the Essential Divinity is cosubstantial and coequal with the Triat unified, however, it is not them, just as Jesus (The Lamb) is not the Holy Spirit
 
Udlmaster said:
More so, what we're talking about is like the Holy Trinity, God is Jesus, The Father and Holy Spirit but they are not each other.

In this way, the Essential Divinity is cosubstantial and coequal with the Triat unified, however, it is not them, just as Jesus (The Lamb) is not the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
Well, more so strictly speaking of the Eastern Orthodox doctrine over say the Catholic who do believe the Triune metaphysical parts are exactly the same as each other.
 
Hey, I'm just curious. I saw "Jesus Christ, The Good Shepherd" on a Verse page. Are there any books that talk about him? And, is Zeus as powerful as Jehovah in the Umbral Hierarchy?
 
Frans_Kadmon said:
Hey, I'm just curious. I saw "Jesus Christ, The Good Shepherd" on a Verse page. Are there any books that talk about him? And, is Zeus as powerful as Jehovah in the Umbral Hierarchy?
Click to expand...
The Good Shepherd takes his name from Gods and Monsters, 20th Anniversary Edition for Mage the Ascension

He's discussed a lot, since there's a lot of Christian themes in WoD, especially Vampire.

As for Zeus, unlikely. I don't remember if he was listed among the Godheads who made their own Gardens or not. If not, then he's a lower tier Godhead, if he did, then he's a Creator God, and would be around the same rank as Jehovah
 
Udlmaster said:
Lilith and Lucifer become High 1-A, because they're in the upper tier of Gods (Greater Celestines)

Lucifer went quite broad and has power over Thaumiel, which is the equal and opposite to Jehovah's Keter

Likewise, Lilith is equals with Jehovah (as stated at many points in the lore).

Jehovah is the source of Yahweh, a lower aspect of him which embodies the Tree of Life and the Unity of God's masculine aspects, in essence, Jehovah is his own Monad (and thus a false one)

Likewise, the Triat would be High 1-A, they are just all of existence in different modes.

Gaia and Yu Huang are also High 1-A as they created the Triat.

Bondye is unfathomable and unreachable to the other Gods and is thus High 1-A

Buddha is completely beyond comparison to the Gods as he exists in Nirvana and surpassed all of them.
Click to expand...
Which one is wod's baseline High 1-A?
 
Rabbit2002 said:
So what is the baseline High 1-A structure/entity in wod? Tellurian? Or lower like the baseline Epiphamies?
Click to expand...
Mmmm, I thought you was talking about the entities on that list.

1-A starts with the Tapestry, containing all Imagination and also having Infinite levels of Meaning that when someone fell through those levels, they lost their duality, the text describes it as "She felt her being stripped away. Neither man nor woman, human nor insect, earth nor sky, she fell. Talons of raging flame grabbed hold of her remaining essence. Her sense of being slowly return as the fires of knowledge consumed her."
 
Udlmaster said:
Mmmm, I thought you was talking about the entities on that list.

1-A starts with the Tapestry, containing all Imagination and also having Infinite levels of Meaning that when someone fell through those levels, they lost their duality, the text describes it as "She felt her being stripped away. Neither man nor woman, human nor insect, earth nor sky, she fell. Talons of raging flame grabbed hold of her remaining essence. Her sense of being slowly return as the fires of knowledge consumed her."
Click to expand...
I’m gonna make another Markus match but his opponent has guns

Does he have any answer to guns?
 
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