A Song of Ice and Fire Lifting Strength upgrade

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Profiles in this verse currently have a LS Below Average Human for the most part (the fault lies with me, as I misunderstood the LS of this wiki), and they should be upgraded to Average Human to Athletic Human .

Average Human :
- Petyr Baelish, Melisandre, Varamyr

Average Human, possibly Above Average Human :
- Syrio Forel (Syrio is described as light and does not wear any form of armor in battle)

Above Average Human (Characters who weigh from 80 kg to 120 kg, armor included for those who have it) :
- Rhaegar, Daemon, Jaehaerys, Aegon and Aemon Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, Daemon Blackfyre, Eddard and Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Ramsay Bolton, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon, Tywin and Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Beric Dondarrion, Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martell, Garlan and Loras Tyrell, Euron and Theon Greyjoy, Bronn, Coldhands, Drogo, Varys, Grey Worm, Thoros, Jaqen H'ghar

Above Average Human, possibly Athletic Human (120-227 kg, armor included for those who have it) :
- Brienne Tarth, Sandor Clegane, Victarion Greyjoy, Maegor Targaryen, Duncan, Belwas
Note : These characters are all known to be heavy, even compared to other characters. For example, George R.R. Martin once said that Brienne was significantly heavier than Jaime Lannister and Renly Baratheon

Brienne is well over six feet tall, but not close to seven, no. Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert

- So Spake Martin: Brienne of Tarth

Athletic Human :
- Gregor Clegane (weigh 190 kg, all of it muscle)

He is almost eight feet tall and must weigh thirty stone, all of it muscle

- A Storm of Swords, Tyrion X

Note: Gregor could perhaps have a greater LS level thanks to this feat

"He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her ******* head in. Like this." As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch."

- A Storm of Swords, Tyrion X

Agree :
Disagree :
Neutral :

EDIT
Above Average Human, possibly/likely Athletic Human (Characters who weigh from 80 kg to 120 kg, armor included for those who have it) :
- Rhaegar, Daemon, Jaehaerys, Aegon and Aemon Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, Daemon Blackfyre, Eddard and Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Ramsay Bolton, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon, Tywin and Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Beric Dondarrion, Arthur Dayne, Oberyn Martell, Garlan and Loras Tyrell, Euron and Theon Greyjoy, Bronn, Coldhands, Drogo, Varys, Grey Worm, Thoros, Jaqen H'ghar

Athletic Human (120-227 kg, armor included for those who have it) :
- Brienne Tarth, Sandor Clegane, Victarion Greyjoy, Maegor Targaryen, Duncan, Belwas

Athletic Human, possibly/likely Peak Human :
- Gregor Clegane (weigh 190 kg, all of it muscle, and wears the heaviest and thickest steel plate armor in the Seven Kingdoms)

Note : This is all based on the weight of the characters and their armor, not their LS feats, because they have none.
And according to this person, the weight can be used as LS

How much force you can generate, body weight is acceptable for that, because you can for example, run, swim, jump easily with that weight, which generates more force, these guys can probably do a lot of running, and swinging of swords an armor, which generates much more force, which probably scales, altough not exactly to how much they can lift/push etc. This lifting strength would prove useful in situations where an opponent tries to grab or choke them, for example.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

For reference, these are the values for the various categories.

Below Average Human 0-50kg/0-110lb
Average Human 50-80kg/110lb-176lb
Above Average Human 80-120kg/176lb-266lb
Athletic Human 120-227kg/266lb-500lb
Peak Human 227-545.2/500lb-1200lb

With that in mind, I would argue that you're being a little conservative. Any of the grown men in the series who are fighters should fall into the "Athletic Human" category and I think people like Maegor and the Cleganes are definitely "Peak Human." This is based on the values given.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

For reference, these are the values for the various categories.

I already know them yes

Any of the grown men in the series who are fighters should fall into the "Athletic Human" category

They should all be in the Above Average Human without their armour, but with most should fall into the Athletic Human with their armour, depending on their starting weight. So "possibly" or "likely" Athletic Human depending on the characters, I think.

and I think people like Maegor and the Cleganes are definitely "Peak Human."

Well, considering Gregor Clegane wears the heaviest plate armor in the Seven Kingdoms (besides his initial 190 kg) and easily fights with it, yeah probably.
However I don't see why Maegor Targaryen and Sandor Clegane would be Peak Human. Sandor should not have a weight comparable or superior to that of his brother.
(unless you compare them to strongman and Olympic weight lifters IRL in term of lifting feats, but they don't have that kind of feats)

 

[Deagonx]

I already know them yes

Yes, I was providing them for anyone entering the thread who did not already know.

They should all be in the Above Average Human without their armour, but with most should fall into the Athletic Human with their armour, depending on their starting weight. So "possibly" or "likely" Athletic Human depending on the characters, I think.

An athletic human can lift 266lbs. With or without their armor, nearly every single sword-wielding character in the series can meet that standard. Jamie Lannister, for instance, certainly can.

Well, considering Gregor Clegane wears the heaviest plate armor in the Seven Kingdoms (besides his initial 190 kg) and easily fights with it, yeah probably.
However I don't see why Maegor Targaryen and Sandor Clegane would be Peak Human. Sandor should not have a weight comparable or superior to that of his brother.
(unless you compare them to strongman and Olympic weight lifters IRL in term of lifting feats, but they don't have that kind of feats)

Don't they have strength relative to him? IIRC Maegor was described as very muscular, if I'm thinking of the correct character.

Peak might be pushing it, but a 270lb deadlift is not challenging for an adult male of normal height. For experienced soldiers who wear plate armor all day, this would be trivial.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

An athletic human can lift 266lbs

An athlete can also weigh less than that.
To give examples, some WWE wrestlers like John Cena, Edge, Triple H and Randy Orton weigh only 110 to 116 kg. Even Mike Tyson at his peak weight was not 120 kg. So Above Average Human for heavyweight athletes is the minimum

Peak might be pushing it, but a 270lb deadlift is not challenging for an adult male of normal height. For experienced soldiers who wear plate armor all day, this would be trivial.

I don't think all knights are able to do that, and it's still very different, especially because armor isn't that heavy, you wear it with your whole body, and any adult with good shape can wear one and fight with it, but not every adult with good shape can lift 270Ib

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So Above Average Human for heavyweight athletes is the minimum

But Athletic Human can easily be reach with plate armor

 

[Deagonx]

An athlete can also weigh less than that.
To give examples, some WWE wrestlers like John Cena, Edge, Triple H and Randy Orton weigh only 110 to 116 kg.

Can I ask why you seem to think that lifting strength is directly correlated to one's bodyweight? In the "Peak Human" section there's a link to a video of someone deadlifting, which means one's lifting strength scales to how much they can pick up, as well as other things.

266lbs is not an impressive deadlift, so any large athletic man should be capable of it. I'm sure we could find feats to support that if we need to.

but not every adult with good shape can lift 270Ib

Any grown man who is in good shape can deadlift 270lbs. You mention John Cena. He weighs 110kg, but his deadlift is 600lbs, so he would be in the "peak human" category.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Can I ask why you seem to think that lifting strength is directly correlated to one's bodyweight? In the "Peak Human" section there's a link to a video of someone deadlifting, which means one's lifting strength scales to how much they can pick up, as well as other things.

Because I was told that the weight could be used if there are no lifting feats

How much force you can generate, body weight is acceptable for that, because you can for example, run, swim, jump easily with that weight, which generates more force, these guys can probably do a lot of running, and swinging of swords an armor, which generates much more force, which probably scales, altough not exactly to how much they can lift/push etc. This lifting strength would prove useful in situations where an opponent tries to grab or choke them, for example.

Some profiles have LS via supporting their own weight (well it's a giant creature so I don't know if it's a good comparison lol)

266lbs is not an impressive deadlift, so any large athletic man should be capable of it. I'm sure we could find feats to support that if we need to.

Any grown man who is in good shape can deadlift 270lbs. You mention John Cena. He weighs 110kg, but his deadlift is 600lbs, so he would be in the "peak human" category.

For weight lifting, it all depends on the exercises that VSBW takes into account for the LS. Some exercises are more complicated than others (according to this site, an average man not trained in weight lifting can lift 70 kg in deadlifting in his first try, 61 kg in bench press, 38 kg in overhead press, etc, so not 120 kg)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This table also supports what I say

 

[Deagonx]

Some exercises are more complicated than others (according to this site, an average man not trained in weight lifting can lift 70 kg in deadlifting in his first try, 61 kg in bench press, 38 kg in overhead press, etc, so not 120 kg)

The link says: The average untrained man can deadlift around 155 pounds. Then, with three months of practice, he can deadlift 285 pounds for a single repetition.

Untrained meaning they do not exercise. So within three months of exercising, they reach "athletic human" status, which is my point. Deadlifting is a specific skill that can show one's strength, but not knowing how to deadlift well doesn't mean you don't have the strength. For trained soldiers, it should be a very safe assumption that their strength is at least as good as a normal human who exercises for 3 months.

Some profiles have LS via supporting their own weight (well it's a giant creature so I don't know if it's a good comparison lol)

Who on earth approved this dragon being 500 million pounds? 2000x the size of the largest creature on earth? That needs to be fixed.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Untrained meaning they do not exercise

Untrained in weight lifting, not untrained in physical activities in general. Knowing how to fight and lift weights is a totally different exercise

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

2000x the size of the largest creature on earth?

The size ?

 

[Deagonx]

Untrained in weight lifting, not untrained in physical activities in general. Knowing how to fight and lift weights is a totally different exercise

First, I will point out that this article is just an opinion piece from whoever runs that blog, so we shouldn't stake too much on it. However, in general, athletes in non-weightlifting fields would not fall into the "untrained" category. If they were to take up weightlifting, their starting numbers would be much greater than a sedentary individual.

I was in the military, but did not lift weights until I left the service. When I began weightlifting, my deadlift was 265lb immediately, and I do not have the physicality of someone like Sandor Clegane.

The size ?

The weight, rather. The idea that these dragons weigh hundreds of millions of pounds is incredibly stupid. A blue whale weights about 300,000, and are about 30 meters across. The calc estimates the dragon as being 330 meters across. Even being generous, there's no way we get from a 10x length difference to a 2000x weight difference.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

First, I will point out that this article is just an opinion piece from whoever runs that blog, so we shouldn't stake too much on it.

I also sent this :

This table also supports what I say

And there is also this and this (according to this site : "What is a good Deadlift? Male beginners should aim to lift 78 kg (1RM) which is still impressive compared to the general population." Definition of beginner : "Stronger than 5% of lifters. A beginner lifter can perform the movement correctly and has practiced it for at least a month."
All these things support what I say.

Well, all of that is different depending on the weight, and all that stuff. But hey if you want a "possibly Peak Human" can be added in the profile of Sandor Clegane

 

[Deagonx]

And there is also this and this (according to this site : "What is a good Deadlift? Male beginners should aim to lift 78 kg (1RM) which is still impressive compared to the general population." Definition of beginner : "Stronger than 5% of lifters. A beginner lifter can perform the movement correctly and has practiced it for at least a month."
All these things support what I say.

You can find a lot of internet content with wildly varying numbers for beginner lift numbers. But even your table isn't particularly problematic for my point. For instance, a novice who weighs 180lbs is already in the "athletic human" category for lifting strength. Im just saying that any of the trained fighters in the series who are adult men should easily fit into this category.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You can find a lot of internet content with wildly varying numbers for beginner lift numbers.

The sources I found are not even "widly" varied with the numbers given, the differences are mostly due to weight.

For instance, a novice who weighs 180lbs is already in the "athletic human" category for lifting strength.

A novice is still superior to an untrained person in weight lifting.
Either way Jaime Lannister and Jorah Mormont could deadlift 270 Ibs or not, they would still be "likely Athletic Human" in LS thanks to armor.


And we need other opinions for this thread too.

 

[Deagonx]

A novice is still superior to an untrained person in weight lifting.

I agree, but my point is that we are talking about a relatively low level of fitness, something a normal person can obtain in less than a year. A medieval knight should be at least that strong.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

A medieval knight should be at least that strong.

I still disagree with that, but better wait for other opinions.

 

[Deagonx]

I still disagree with that, but better wait for other opinions.

I just don't see how? The idea that every guy that goes to the gym for 6 months is already stronger than every GoT character except The Mountain seems pretty far-fetched to me.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The idea that every guy that goes to the gym for 6 months is already stronger than every GoT character except The Mountain seems pretty far-fetched to me.

Not for me.
Weight lifting exercises do not exist in Westeros, they are trained in Striking strength, not in Lifting strength.

Martin: Sometimes, I think about it. In the Ice and Fire books, there is a lot of analogy between what the knights do and what modern football players or boxers or people in other combat-related sports do. A medieval knight trained every day. They did not have Nautilus machines or weight training but they were in the yard practicing with their swords and shields, riding at each other on the jousting field. It was a constant regimen of training to keep themselves in top shape. And there was a huge interest in jousting. When a tournament was held, people turned out by the tens of thousands to watch that, and there was heavy wagering on which Knight would win.

Some smallfolk characters are trained in weightlifting, such as Small Paul who was able to easily lift beef heavier than Samwell Tarly (who weighs 280 Ibs), but we can't scale that to the knights of Westeros, because they don't do that kind of work, they are not farm boys.
Note: Small Paul was described as the strongest man on the Wall, thus stronger than all the knights and warriors of noble births of the Night's Watch

 

[Deagonx]

Weight lifting exercises do not exist in Westeros, they are trained in Striking strength, not in Lifting strength.

You don't need to lift weights in a modern to become strong. We are only talking about weightlifting exercises because it's a metric for measuring one's strength.

The fact of the matter is, a large man who keeps in "top shape" will be able to lift 300lbs off the ground. It's not very hard.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Buuuuuuuuuuuuump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

This seems uncontroversial to apply.

@RoTt35 @LordTracer @Matthew_Schroeder @EliminatorVenom @SheevShezarrine @HyperNepsy @AKM sama

Are you also willing to help out here please?

 

[RoTt35]

I'm not knowledgeable on ASOIAF but the upgrades look good to me. Also if Gregor crushed Oberyn's skull like in the show that would be Peak Human LS for him

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I agree. And Gregor crushing Oberyn's skull is Peak Human LS

 

[LordTracer]

This is fine.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

So, if I remember the rules correctly, the changes can be applied within 48 hours if there are no other disagreements?