A question about Omniscience

[Rikimarox2]

Ello~

Imma get straight to the point. I know Omniscience grants knowledge of a character they are fighting in a vs battle, but is that always the case?

Say if a character has Acausality Type 4, or really strong resistances to information analysis or precognition, would the omniscient character still grant knowledge of them?

If yes, are there any ways to prevent an omniscience character to not get knowledge about a character they are fighting?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Antoniofer]

Take into account that Omniscience is pretty difficult to prove and shouldn't be taken slightly.

 

[Regidian]

It's maybie depend on the verse? Some verse are Omniscient even with acausality type 5 people(and can see them) and some don't have them in their verse so maybie their will not see them, i don't know much about this'

 

[Rikimarox2]

Take into account that Omniscience is pretty difficult to prove and shouldn't be taken slightly.

Assuming a character is the god of a verse, and knows absolutely everything in said verse. How would a character be able to prevent said omniscient character from getting knowledge?

 

[Youtd]

Oh, you already made the thread. Well I will just copy and paste my opinions here

"
Omniscience doesn't grant you knowledge of all verses and all characters in fiction. Shiki is omniscient because she is the root of all things in the nasuverse John doesn't exist in the nasuverse, she isn't the root of john's verse. Just because a character knows everything about their own vers doesn't mean they know everything about a character outside of their verse Shiki doesn't even know that john exit or knows there's a character that can fight her since she's the strongest character in the nasuverse she might be bewildered that a character as powerful as john exists.

just because someone is omniscient doesn't mean they will know who Spongebob is for example because he doesn't exist in their verse.

"From what I remeber no one agrees with that it's always assumed that an omniscient character only knows about his or her own verse it would, NFL to say they know everything or even anything about other verses when there's is no proof of them knowing those verses"

 

[Regidian]

Oh you already made the thread. Well i will just copy and paste my opinions here

"
Omniscience dosent grant you knowledge on all verses and all charecters in fiction. Shiki is omniscient because she is the root of all things in the nasuverse John doesn't exist in the nasueverse, she isn't the root of john's verse. Just because a character knows everything about their own vers doesn't mean they know everything about a character outside of their verse shiki doesn't even know that john exit or knows there's a character that can fight her since she's the strongest character in the nasuverse she might be bewildered that a character as powerful as john exists.

just because someone is omniscient doesn't mean they will know who spongebob is for example because he doesn't exist in their verse.

"From what I remeber no one agrees with that it's always assumed that an omniscient character only knows about his or her own verse it would, NFL to say they know everything or even anything about other verses when there's is no proof of them having knowledge of those verses"

What you tell is like litteraly that omnipresent character are not omnipresent in vs because it's not in their verse.

 

[Youtd]

What you tell is like litteraly that omnipresent character are not omnipresent in vs because it's not in their verse.

That's a false equivalency, omnipresence and omniscience are not the same and besides omnipresence has limits Lucemon is omnipresent but that doesn't mean he is omnipresent in all verses or fictions.

Omniscience also has limits. It's limited to your verse only a god that knows everything about their own universe doesn't mean that God knows everything about another god's universe. There's no such thing as true Omniscience

 

[Regidian]

That's a false equivalency, omnipresence and omniscience are not the same and besides omnipresence has limits Lucemon is omnipresent but that doesn't mean he is omnipresent in all verses or fictions.

Omniscience also has limits. Its limited to your verse only a god that knows everything about their own universe doesn't mean that god knows everything about another gods universe. There's no such thing as true Omnisicence

We never talked about true omniscience but about how Omniscience work in a vs match

 

[Youtd]

We never talked about true omniscience but about how Omniscience work in a vs match

yeah, and in vs matches, omniscient characters shouldn't know about characters from verses other than their own without proof (EX: Crossover) because that would be NFL.

when I said true omniscience I meant the definition that an omniscient character knows everything. how can a character in fiction know everything if the author that created that omniscient character doesn't know everything

 

[Regidian]

yeah, and in vs matches, omniscient characters shouldn't know about characters from verses other than their own without proof (EX:Crossover) because that would be nfl.

when I said true omniscience I meant the definition that an omniscient character knows everything. now character in fiction knows everything because the author that created that omniscient character doesn't know everything

This is not nlf since we not limited power/capacity from a verse to other or many capacity will litteraly do nothing because their are specicaly for their verse.

The omniscient will just being able to know everything about the is ennemy not like he will know about digimon if he fight luffy

 

[Youtd]

This is not nlf since we not limited power/capacity from a verse to other or many capacity will litteraly do nothing because their are specicaly for their verse

we limit powers if they haven't shown any proof that they can do something.

Like if a character has no proof of affecting a nonexistent being they cant affect that nonexistent being just because in another verse everyone can touch nonexistent beings.

 

[Regidian]

we limit powers if they haven't shown any proof that they can do something.

Like if a character has no proof of affecting a nonexistent being they cant affect that nonexistent being just because in another verse everyone can touch nonexistent beings.

That not comparable this is a false equivalecy too, we should just wait other to answer since we alredy know what we think (oh and for void shiki thing she litteraly have information analysis and like all of the precognition ability of the verse so she will still have the advantage from that)

 

[Youtd]

That not comparable this is a false equivalecy too, we should just wait other to answer since we alredy know what we think (oh and for void shiki thing she litteraly have information analysis and like all of the precognition ability of the verse so she will still have the advantage from that)

Let's wait until the morning. You can go to sleep I promise not to move on with the Shiki and John thread without you.

Also, I'm cool with the information analysis I was gonna bring that up afterward actually, I only have problems with the omniscience part

 

[Regidian]

Ty

 

[Elizhaa]

From what know, Omniscience usually treated as giving the characters complete knowledge in vs battle with only Nigh-Omnipresence being treated on a case-by-case basis since it tends to vary.

 

[Youtd]

From what know, Omniscience usually treated as giving the characters complete knowledge in vs battle with only Nigh-Omnipresence being treated on a case-by-case basis since it tends to vary.

wait a minute so the omniscient character would know about verses outside of their own verse without any feats or proof isn't that NFL or fallacy or something it just seems so unfair and cheap. I remember that the omniscience used to be limited to their own verse when did this change happen.

 

[Youtd]

bump

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Omniscience is the state of having all knowledge, or in other words, knowing everything.

By definition, yes, an omniscient character would know everything about their opponent, even if they're from another verse.

 

[Youtd]

By definition, yes, an omniscient character would know everything about their opponent, even if they're from another verse.

yes but wouldn't that be NFL like ryougi shilki would know everything about unimenko or azathoth which are in outerversal verses just because she is omniscient

 

[Youtd]

Take into account that Omniscience is pretty difficult to prove and shouldn't be taken slightly.

agreed true omniscience is hard to prove and probably doesn't exist just like how true omnipotence doesn't exist.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

yes but wouldnt that be nfl like ryougi shilki would know everything about unimenko or azathoth which are outerversal verses just because she is omniscient

Just because they know everything about a foe doesn't mean that they'd be capable of defeating them. For instance, if I was omniscient, I would know every move Goku has in his arsenal, and know what he's going to do before he even does it. However, this doesn't matter because Goku could still kill me in one hit, regardless of whether or not I know what he's going to do.

 

[Youtd]

Just because they know everything about a foe doesn't mean that they'd be capable of defeating them. For instance, if I was omniscient, I would know every move Goku has in his arsenal, and know what he's going to do before he even does it. However, this doesn't matter because Goku could still kill me in one hit, regardless of whether or not I know what he's going to do.

yes, they wouldn't win but I disagree with the idea that they should even know about the foe in the first place. in fiction when a character is usually omniscient they know everything in their own verse however they shouldn't know everything in all verses and all fiction we shouldn't assume they know everything about other verse just because they are omniscient and also the author that wrote that character doesn't even know everything about all verses.

 

[Youtd]

there's also this (https://vsbattles.com/threads/isnt-omniscience-and-omnipresence-nlf.108278/) it wasn't concluded or closed

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

yes, they wouldn't win but I disagree with the idea that they should even know about the foe in the first place. n fiction when a character is usually omniscient they know everything in their own verse however they shouldn't know everything in all verses and in all fiction we shouldn't assume they know everything about other verse because and also the author that wrote that character doesn't even know everything about all verses.

I mean, it'd kind of make sense, though. For instance, if Character A and Character B were fighting, and Character B is capable of seeing all possible futures and outcomes, does that ability suddenly not work because Character A isn't from his verse? No.

The only things that really don't apply to other verses are verse-specific haxes (e.g. a character being able to erase an energy source that doesn't exist in another character's verse would be pointless, since the other character lacks that energy source). Omniscience, however, is a state of being. In Versus Threads a character doesn't stop being who they are when pitted against another character (unless rules explicitly state characters are bloodlusted, or through some hax from their opponent), and thus an omniscient character would not cease to be omniscient, even when facing a character from another verse.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So, there's really nothing a character can do to prevent omniscience?

 

[Youtd]

I mean, it'd kind of make sense, though. For instance, if Character A and Character B were fighting, and Character B is capable of seeing all possible futures and outcomes, does that ability suddenly not work because Character A isn't from his verse? No.

The only things that really don't apply to other verses are verse-specific haxes (e.g. a character being able to erase an energy source that doesn't exist in another character's verse would be pointless, since the other character lacks that energy source). Omniscience, however, is a state of being. In Versus Threads a character doesn't stop being who they are when pitted against another character (unless rules explicitly state characters are bloodlusted, or through some hax from their opponent), and thus an omniscient character would not cease to be omniscient, even when facing a character from another verse.

what about void Shiki she is considered omniscience because she is the root of all things and everything came from her but obviously characters from different verses didn't come from her so would she know anything about that character

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

So, there's really nothing a character can do to prevent omniscience?

I'd say no, personally, though others would argue that omniscience of a character should be taken on a case-by-case basis. In my opinion, if you prevent an omniscient character from knowing something, that means that the character is no longer omniscient. So by nature, preventing omniscience only proves that a character is not actually omniscient.

 

[QuasiYuri]

There was some talk about limiting Omniscience by area and stuff.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

what about void Shiki she is considered omniscience because she is the root of all things and everything came from her but obviously characters from different verses didn't come from her so would she know anything about that character

I'd personally say that as long as omniscience is a state of being, then there's really nothing preventing her from knowing everything about the character she faces.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

There was some talk about limiting Omniscience by area and stuff.

Interesting. I could kind of see that being possible to do, given that some characters know everything that happens in a set realm, while others know everything that happens in an infinite multiverse.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Even if the character is a higher dimensional being? Wouldn't that be kind of NLF, since you are basically getting knowledge of something that is infinitely more complex than you are.

 

[Youtd]

it seems this

I'd say no, personally, though others would argue that omniscience of a character should be taken on a case-by-case basis. In my opinion, if you prevent an omniscient character from knowing something, that means that the character is no longer omniscient. So by nature, preventing omniscience only proves that a character is not actually omniscient.

well, it should be more like the omniscient characters know everything that they have been proven or shown to know about obviously if an omniscient character has never shown that they know of a fictional character from a completely different universe we shouldn't let them have any knowledge on that character they are only limited by what they have proven and shown to know about otherwise were just giving them free prep time and knowledge on characters that they shouldn't even know exist.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Even if the character is a higher dimensional being? Wouldn't that be kind of NLF, since you are basically getting knowledge of something that is infinitely more complex than you are.

I'd refer back to my original example with an omniscient human level being fighting Goku, who can hit Low 2-C. However, there is talk of Omniscience being limited by area, so I guess dimensional tiering could also play some factor in that as well.

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering that we have a system and few blogs explaining what "higher dimension" is, I would say that isn't as complex as people make it to be.

 

[Youtd]

Considering that we have a system and few blogs explaining what "higher dimension" is, I would say that isn't as complex as people make it to be.

maybe complex isn't the right word. incomprehensible to a lower-dimensional omniscient being is fits better

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

it seems this

well, it should be more like the omniscient characters know everything that they have been proven or shown to know about obviously if an omniscient character has never shown that they know of a fictional character from a completely different universe we shouldn't let them have any knowledge on that character they are only limited by what they have proven and shown to know about otherwise were just giving them free prep time and knowledge on characters that they shouldn't even know exist.

Limited knowledge still isn't omniscience. That's somewhat contradictory. Plus, as I said before, omniscience is a state of being.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Interesting. I could kind of see that being possible to do, given that some characters know everything that happens in a set realm, while others know everything that happens in an infinite multiverse.

That's the basic idea yeah. Although how to correctly divide it is arguable ig.

 

[Youtd]

and dont higher-dimensional characters see lower-dimensional characters as fiction even if they were omniscient

Limited knowledge still isn't omniscience. That's somewhat contradictory. Plus, as I said before, omniscience is a state of being.

that's because there's no such thing as true omniscience and besides on the Omniscience page it says "Also knowledge of other fictions is not a requirement for omniscience, so a character that knows everything about their own fictional franchise is considered to be omniscient" so in the vs wiki you can be omniscience by simply knowing everything in your own verse instead of knowing everything in all of fiction

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

and dont higher dimensional charecters see lower dim


that's because there's no true omniscience and besides on the Omniscience page it says "Also knowledge of other fictions is not a requirement for omniscience, so a character that knows everything about their own fictional franchise is considered to be omniscient" so in the vs wiki you can be omniscience by simply knowing everything in your own verse instead of knowing everything in all of fiction

Neat.

 

[Youtd]

also, how do you guys feel about the argument that 4th wall breakers know knowledge that not even omniscient beings know since most 4th wall breakers know they are in a story and are completely fictional while some omniscient's or nigh omniscient do not know that they are fictional characters and if they don't know that they are fictional characters how will they know about anything outside their own verse without a crossover or something like that.