A little ability for Kuroko Shirai

[ElixirBlue]

I was just looking at Flight for something unrelated to the Index's verse, and then I read the description of Pseudo-flight and immediately thought of Shirai.

Having Pseudo-flight on her profile shouldn't be controversial at all, since it's what she does all the time. Let's add it!

Also, adding resistance to 3D Precog for Shirai and Awaki Musujime with these two supporting scans.

 

[ElixirBlue]

bump

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

If we're adding things for Shirai, she should also get resistance to 3D precog (because of shota Joseph Joestar miniarc) and kinetic energy manipulation (as she can seemingly choose whether or not she keeps momentum between teleports).
Awaki needs all three things as well.

But, I think more minor CRT for Toaru are on the backseat right now, until key mess gets cleaned up.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm unaware of any CRTs. I just thought pseudo-flight definitely fits Shirai. Tho, I agree to resisting 3D precog. Does her resistance to it effects other profiles?

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Why should it affect other profiles? It's something specific for people moving through 11 dimensions - so, only lesbian stalker teleporter and pedo vegan teleporter get it and the rest doesn't care, unless they are put in a match with either of those two.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ok, I add it to the OP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Pseudo-flight yes.
No to the precog resistance. That's just a specific weakness of how the Shota's ability works. Nothing that can actually see the future should have a problem with that. It's because his ability in some way does calculations for precognition that it can throw him off.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Okay, so to support my claim on (limited) kinetic energy manipulation here's a quote from OT8:

(Luckily, teleportation is a point-to-point movement and not a straight line movement, so there’s no inertia. If not, it’ll be embarrassing if my skirt flips up due to air resistance.)

However, despite that statement, she can perform actions that obviously require these forces to work between teleportations, such as (OT12):

Shirai Kuroko rapidly approached via teleportation and drop kicked Kamijou Touma in the back of the head.

Correct me if this argumention is overblowing it.

About precog - yes, this is why I specifically mentioned 3D precog only (to be specified further in notable techniques). It's not like this term is too specific anyway.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I mean, Shota’s power is defined as Precog, a form of it, and she is resisting it. He explains its only 3D Precog and her power works outside of the 3rd Dimension.

No matter how you look at it, she’s resisting precog on some level.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, Shota’s power is defined as Precog, a form of it, and she is resisting it. He explains its only 3D Precog and her power works outside of the 3rd Dimension.

No matter how you look at it, she’s resisting precog on some level.

But only on the level where everything else that the guys power doesn't take into account during calculation does. Like, magic or dark matter would probably also circumvent it, due to him likely not be able to calculate those either. If that is the justification to resist precognition than any power in any verse that in some other verse is unaccounted for in a simulation-based precognition power would mean the characters get precog resistance. That's not really feasible.
It's simply that any kind of calculation based precog has a weakness in that it doesn't work on things the user can't calculate. Being able to make use of the weakness of an ability just isn't the same as resisting it.

About precog - yes, this is why I specifically mentioned 3D precog only (to be specified further in notable techniques). It's not like this term is too specific anyway.

Normal none calculation based future vision will work, though. Unless you want to say that normal precognition is 4D, because it actually uses time or something like that. Anyway, as said above, I think this falls under making use of a weakness and not a resistance.

Okay, so to support my claim on (limited) kinetic energy manipulation here's a quote from OT8:

I mean, the drop kick is because after she teleported above him gravity will start pulling her down.
It's quite possible that she teleported on a moving vehicle or something like that before, though. Not that I'm sure about it. However, I don't think we usually list plot conveniences such as the variable way teleportation conserves momentum as its own ability. I think that's kinda part of the teleportation packet.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Like, magic or dark matter would probably also circumvent it, due to him likely not be able to calculate those either.

I get what you are trying to say, but Shota does say Shirai is resisting Cause and Effect with her teleportation.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Normal none calculation based future vision will work, though. Unless you want to say that normal precognition is 4D, because it actually uses time or something like that. Anyway, as said above, I think this falls under making use of a weakness and not a resistance.

I guess "resistance to calculation-based 3D precognition" is a bit too specific to be its own thing when it's based on one example. Will one sentence to the description of her teleport (something like "due to the 11th dimensional mechanics, precognition based on 3D calculations cannot perfectly predict her moves") be more appropriate, or is the whole point moot?

I mean, the drop kick is because after she teleported above him gravity will start pulling her down

I'm fairly sure trying to do a teleporting drop kick without keeping kinetic energy would result in falling straight to the ground, not in connecting with somebody's head.

It's quite possible that she teleported on a moving vehicle or something like that before, though. Not that I'm sure about it. However, I don't think we usually list plot conveniences such as the variable way teleportation conserves momentum as its own ability. I think that's kinda part of the teleportation packet.

Um, then why is durability negation by teleportation listed as its own thing?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Um, then why is durability negation by teleportation listed as its own thing?

Actually, Kuroko should have that too. She has been using it non lethal to pin punks to the ground but Awaki did teleport objects into Kuroko with no kinetic energy.

 

[XDragnoir]

Toaru 11 dimensions are valid dimensions in the new system, future sight can't see them without 11D feats, they literally moving outside time.

Being unable to destroy a universe does not mean their 11D hax isn't smurf hax, in case someone tries to say that.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Oh, one last thing to add. GT3 buffed her teleport to support 130.74 kg at once instead of 130.7.

 

[XDragnoir]

Is it REALLY a buff? It is just Kamachi filling the science side with super minor details again, nothing new. Also, you guys will wait a few days before any CRT right? I am less than halfway through.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

I mean, yes. I remember a separate CRT for GT1 giving Mikoto "more than" one billion volts.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Toaru 11 dimensions are valid dimensions in the new system, future sight can't see them without 11D feats, they literally moving outside time.

Future sight doesn't need to see 11D, it only needs to the 3D part that Kuroko is in like 99.999999999...% of the time. Like, if teleportation is instantaneous the time Kuroko spends outside 3 dimensions is literally 0.

And no, Kuroko doesn't move outside time. Being able to move through higher-dimensional space means nothing about time.

Being unable to destroy a universe does not mean their 11D hax isn't smurf hax, in case someone tries to say that.

By the new tiering system it actually kinda does. Or at least you would need to scale to something that can. Heck, even by the old system just moving through higher dimensions was never smurf anything. It's just movement.

I get what you are trying to say, but Shota does say Shirai is resisting Cause and Effect with her teleportation.

No, he isn't saying that. He says there is "cause and effect at work“, which means literally the opposite. He says cause and effect is part of the whole thing. That in itself isn’t really a deep statement or something, given how cause and effect is kinda part of anything that happens.

I guess "resistance to calculation-based 3D precognition" is a bit too specific to be its own thing when it's based on one example. Will one sentence to the description of her teleport (something like "due to the 11th dimensional mechanics, precognition based on 3D calculations cannot perfectly predict her moves") be more appropriate, or is the whole point moot?

IMO it's like writing on a shapeshifters profile "Mind Control that only works on woman, will not work while it is a man". Technically correct, but nonsensically specific. The profile explains how teleportation is an 11D based power. IMO that should suffice. If you really think you need to point it out I won't stop you, though.

I'm fairly sure trying to do a teleporting drop kick without keeping kinetic energy would result in falling straight to the ground, not in connecting with somebody's head.

Unless you teleport above their head, that is. Or initially have your backs pulled back and stretch them for the kick. Like the one of the first episode of the railgun anime against the pyrokinetic dude.

Um, then why is durability negation by teleportation listed as its own thing?

I guess because many teleporters don't do telefragging?
Kinetic Energy Manipulation is something that isn't actually an ability with its own page either. Honestly, I feel like momentum considerations of teleportation are again something that is best just explained in the Notable A/T section, in the teleportation paragraph.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

IMO it's like writing on a shapeshifters profile "Mind Control that only works on woman, will not work while it is a man". Technically correct, but nonsensically specific. The profile explains how teleportation is an 11D based power. IMO that should suffice. If you really think you need to point it out I won't stop you, though.

You never know when stupidly specific details may come in handy.

So, in conclussion - Pseudo-flight is a-OK (and I guess 130.74 kg thing as well), while the other two things should be added, if at all, to the description of her teleport?

 

[ElixirBlue]

No, he isn't saying that. He says there is "cause and effect at work“, which means literally the opposite. He says cause and effect is part of the whole thing. That in itself isn’t really a deep statement or something, given how cause and effect is kinda part of anything that happens.

I can’t agree with this. Cause and effect is why Shota can’t change his prediction. It’s why he has to rely on Shirai because her power defies it. It’s the plot of the arc.

 

[XDragnoir]

Future sight doesn't need to see 11D, it only needs to the 3D part that Kuroko is in like 99.999999999...% of the time. Like, if teleportation is instantaneous the time Kuroko spends outside 3 dimensions is literally 0.

And no, Kuroko doesn't move outside time. Being able to move through higher-dimensional space means nothing about time.


By the new tiering system it actually kinda does. Or at least you would need to scale to something that can. Heck, even by the old system just moving through higher dimensions was never smurf anything. It's just movement.

Someone uses Future Sight > Kuroko Disappears > They are unable to see what she will do because she isn't moving in the 3rd dimensions, where their powers work. And i am sure it has a small frame where she is inside the 11th Dimension, since she needs to calc her now position in the 3rd dimension while inside the 11th dimension.

The 11th Dimension is clearly a spatial dimension, so time the 4th Dimension is below it, if it wasn't like that Toaru wouldn't even be tier 1.

Nope, you are thinking in smurf range/aoe, you do not need that to be a smurf in the new system, as long as your power interacts with one of the higher planes of your verse or another smurf power, you are smurf, it is quite similar to Aleister's 11D faxing, the difference being that he can stay there forever. No, back in the old system (and in the new), being able to move through higher dimensions didn't mean higher dimensionality for your self (for example, The Devourer from EBF was downgraded from 5D to Unknown because there is no proof that he became a 5D being, just that he was able to walk in the 5th dimension) but it does not mean that the place you move to isn't higher dimensional nor does it mean your power isn't smurf.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

It's quite possible that she teleported on a moving vehicle or something like that before, though.

Found it. Kuroko's teleportation vs moving vehicle situation happens in chapter 108 of Railgun manga.

Here's the proposition of specific changes:

Name: Kuroko Shirai

[...]

Powers and Abilities: Subjective Reality, Quantum Manipulation, Limited Probability Manipulation and Limited Law Manipulation via Esper Power; Teleportation, Durability Negation, Pseudo-Flight, Expert Martial Artist, and Resistance to Poison

[...]

Notable Attacks/Techniques

Teleport (空間移動 Kūkan Idō (Tereporto), lit. "Spatial Movement"): Kuroko is a Level 4 Teleport esper. Her ability allows her to teleport herself and/or anything she's touching a certain distance from her position. Like all teleporters, the theory behind her teleportation is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find their position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. If an object is teleported inside another it will displace any matter upon its arrival, allowing teleporters to do things like cut the support pillars of a building by teleporting glass panels inside them. She can teleport up to a maximum of 130.74 kilograms to a distance of 81.5 meters from herself, choosing whether or not she keeps kinetic energy between teleports. Kuroko's combat style is based on teleporting the steel needles she carries in her thigh belts inside the opponent's body or uses them to nail the opponent to the ground and immobilize them, though she has also used them to damage an enemy's weapon. She's also adept at teleporting herself around the enemy to attack from their blind spots or teleporting the enemy at different angles without moving them past a few cm, effectively turning their bodies upside down so they fall on their heads or to make them face another direction. Since teleportation can have no inertia to it, it allows her to travel long distances at about 288 km/h with consecutive teleports and stop instantly without any issues. Like other Teleport espers, Kuroko cannot teleport other espers with the same type of power.

Not touching the resistance to precog thing at the moment, as the debate on this topic continues. In the meantime, I'll search for an example of Awaki doing something comparable with kinetic energy.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You never know when stupidly specific details may come in handy.

So, in conclussion - Pseudo-flight is a-OK (and I guess 130.74 kg thing as well), while the other two things should be added, if at all, to the description of her teleport?

Yes.

Found it. Kuroko's teleportation vs moving vehicle situation happens in chapter 108 of Railgun manga.

Here's the proposition of specific changes:

Not touching the resistance to precog thing at the moment, as the debate on this topic continues. In the meantime, I'll search for an example of Awaki doing something comparable with kinetic energy.

Kuroko's and Awaki's powers work mostly the same. I don't think you need specific feats for Kuroko being able to do the same thing. Draft looks ok.

I can’t agree with this. Cause and effect is why Shota can’t change his prediction. It’s why he has to rely on Shirai because her power defies it. It’s the plot of the arc.

The plot of the arc is that the Shota's precognition doesn't work with teleportation because he does predictions based on 3D calculations and teleportation is 11D movement. When it comes to teleportation his predictions aren't correct in the first place.

The cause and effect thing is just saying that he can due to some cause and effect not change his precognition if it works as intended. We are not talking about causality manipulation here that forces it to happen or anything. Just cause and effect as it normally happens. It's about as vague of an explanation for something as you can give. It really just means "Somehow things always work out so that the prediction comes true".

Someone uses Future Sight > Kuroko Disappears > They are unable to see what she will do because she isn't moving in the 3rd dimensions, where their powers work. And i am sure it has a small frame where she is inside the 11th Dimension, since she needs to calc her now position in the 3rd dimension while inside the 11th dimension.

Teleporters generally calculate stuff before they teleport. Otherwise Kuroko, for instance, would disappear when her calculations are prevented.

Anyway, timeframe inside the 11 dimensional space or not, any time she isn't outside the 3 dimensional space precognition would work like normal. And her not being viewed while outside 11D space is not a resistance, but being outside of the abilities range.

The 11th Dimension is clearly a spatial dimension, so time the 4th Dimension is below it, if it wasn't like that Toaru wouldn't even be tier 1.

It sounds to me like you misunderstand the mathematical idea of what dimensions are or how the tiering system works for that matter. While one talks about higher dimensional space it's not like 11 spatial dimensions, or the 11th dimensional axis in particular, transcend time or anything like that. All dimensional axis are equal in nature.
Moving through higher-dimensional space has nothing to do with time. That's why higher-dimensional characters are neither Immeasurable speed per default nor are for that matter faster than lower-dimensional once in general.

The consequence of Kuroko moving through 11D space on 3D precognition would be the same your 3D movement would impact a stickman that lives on the surface of a single piece of paper and has precognition in that 2D realm. Yes, the 2D stickman can't see you when you are currently not touching the piece of paper. But he will still see in advance whenever you touch the piece of paper and how because he sees the paper's future. Your extra axis of movement really doesn't impact what his future is or his flow of time or causality or anything.

Nope, you are thinking in smurf range/aoe, you do not need that to be a smurf in the new system, as long as your power interacts with one of the higher planes of your verse or another smurf power, you are smurf, it is quite similar to Aleister's 11D faxing, the difference being that he can stay there forever. No, back in the old system (and in the new), being able to move through higher dimensions didn't mean higher dimensionality for your self (for example, The Devourer from EBF was downgraded from 5D to Unknown because there is no proof that he became a 5D being, just that he was able to walk in the 5th dimension) but it does not mean that the place you move to isn't higher dimensional nor does it mean your power isn't smurf.

Let's say it depends on the definition of smurf. If your definition of smurf includes that you are immune against lower-dimensional powers, then you are wrong. If your definition includes that your power would overpower those that are not higher-dimensional, you are wrong as well.
If you just mean something regarding 11D movement being outside the range of 3D powers you are right, but that doesn't really matter for this debate.

 

[ElixirBlue]

The plot of the arc is that the Shota's precognition doesn't work with teleportation because he does predictions based on 3D calculations and teleportation is 11D movement. When it comes to teleportation his predictions aren't correct in the first place.

The cause and effect thing is just saying that he can due to some cause and effect not change his precognition if it works as intended. We are not talking about causality manipulation here that forces it to happen or anything. Just cause and effect as it normally happens. It's about as vague of an explanation for something as you can give. It really just means "Somehow things always work out so that the prediction comes true".

It should still be a noted ability on her powers and abilities section, as it could help her out on some verse battle scenario.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The 11D movement is part of teleportation, so it's no additional ability. We can't start listing every possible way a character can abuse a specific weakness of an opponents ability as a power.
It can be mentioned in the Notable A/T section if it really needs to, but of course with the appropriate explanation that this was using a weakness of the specific precognition and hence won't generate a special advantage against most kinds of precog.

 

[ElixirBlue]

It can be mentioned in the Notable A/T section if it really needs to, but of course with the appropriate explanation that this was using a weakness of the specific precognition and hence won't generate a special advantage against most kinds of precog.

What would be a good way to approach an explanation while mentioning it lacks feats for 4D Precog?

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

So, in the end, what are we doing with precog thing? I can add it to the teleport description in my draft, but I would like debate to definitively end (if not necessarily with conclusion).

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm in agreement of Shirai resisting Precog that acts on the 3rd Dimension.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I would just add something in the direction of "Kuroko has demonstrated the ability to overcome the predictions made via precognition based on 3-dimensional calculations, due to the 11-dimensional nature of teleportation being unaccounted for in said calculations." in the Notable Attack/Techniques-section.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Aren't notable techniques suppose to have a reference in abilities section?

 

[DontTalkDT]

If it were an ability than yes. But as we already established in the debate to this point this isn't an ability, but using the weakness of the shota's precognition technique.
The ability she is using, that is teleportation, is listed in the P&A section. That the shota's technique is weak to it, is at best a detail of the teleportations mechanism.

 

[ElixirBlue]

How would Shota’s Precog be listed as an ability?

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Draft with precog thing:

Name: Kuroko Shirai

[...]

Powers and Abilities: Subjective Reality, Quantum Manipulation, Limited Probability Manipulation and Limited Law Manipulation via Esper Power; Teleportation, Durability Negation, Pseudo-Flight, Expert Martial Artist, and Resistance to Poison

[...]

Notable Attacks/Techniques

Teleport (空間移動 Kūkan Idō (Tereporto), lit. "Spatial Movement"): Kuroko is a Level 4 Teleport esper. Her ability allows her to teleport herself and/or anything she's touching a certain distance from her position. Like all teleporters, the theory behind her teleportation is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find their position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. This property gives her the ability to overcome the predictions made via precognition based on 3-dimensional calculations, as they don't take 11-dimensional calculations into account. If an object is teleported inside another it will displace any matter upon its arrival, allowing teleporters to do things like cut the support pillars of a building by teleporting glass panels inside them. She can teleport up to a maximum of 130.74 kilograms to a distance of 81.5 meters from herself, choosing whether or not she keeps kinetic energy between teleports. Kuroko's combat style is based on teleporting the steel needles she carries in her thigh belts inside the opponent's body or uses them to nail the opponent to the ground and immobilize them, though she has also used them to damage an enemy's weapon. She's also adept at teleporting herself around the enemy to attack from their blind spots or teleporting the enemy at different angles without moving them past a few cm, effectively turning their bodies upside down so they fall on their heads or to make them face another direction. Since teleportation can have no inertia to it, it allows her to travel long distances at about 288 km/h with consecutive teleports and stop instantly without any issues. Like other Teleport espers, Kuroko cannot teleport other espers with the same type of power.

Name: Awaki Musujime

[...]

Powers and Abilities: Subjective Reality, Quantum Manipulation, Limited Probability Manipulation and Limited Law Manipulation via Esper Power; Teleportation, Durability Negation, Pseudo-Flight (with assist from massage machine), resistance to poison

[...]

Notable Attacks/Techniques

Move Point (座標移動 (ムーブポイント) Zahyō Idō (Mūbu Pointo), lit. "Coordinate Movement"): Awaki is a Level 4 esper wielding a powerful version of Teleportation called Move Point. Using Move Point she can teleport anything with a maximum weight of 4.520 kg a maximum distance of 800 meters, though the trainers told her that she'll damage her body if she moves anything more than 1.000 kg. Unlike other teleporters, which normally need to touch an object in order to teleport it (since they are using themselves as point of reference A and sending an object to a point B), she doesn´t need to touch objects to teleport them, as she can freely move an object from point A to point B, choosing whether or not it keeps kinetic energy between teleports. Like all teleporters, the theory behind her teleportation is to get away from the 3 dimensions, find their position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. This property gives her the ability to overcome the predictions made via precognition based on 3-dimensional calculations, as they don't take 11-dimensional calculations into account. If an object is teleported inside another it will displace any matter upon its arrival, allowing teleporters to do things like cut the support pillars of a building by teleporting glass panels inside them. Awaki's favorite method of attack using Move Point is to teleport corkscrews into the opponent's body.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with this

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

So, can we add this?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Can Awaki Musujime use Pseudo Flight? I remember her own fear of her power prevents her from casually teleporting herself, which would be needed to use Pseudo Flight.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Can Awaki Musujime use Pseudo Flight? I remember her own fear of her power prevents her from casually teleporting herself, which would be needed to use Pseudo Flight.

Well, she has a massage device for that.

 

[ElixirBlue]

So, Pseudo Flight via equipment?

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

No, massager is to take away problems with teleporting herself more than a few times in a row, which is what would prevent her from getting pseudo-flight.