A Kamen Rider fights an Empress

[ZeedKZ]

She still just... dodges? Supersonic character is gonna react to supersonic attacks from kilometers away. It would take ~10 seconds for that attack to hit her (200m/s traveling 2000 meters) and Emily can react in fat shorter time frames.

I never said that she will get hit, I'm saying what would happen if she did get hit by Pegasus Bowgun, plus the latter is meaningless when speed is equal here.

Time Slow has uni range. It's time hax which has that range by default.

No?? That's nowhere on her profile and every time manipulation having such range is blatantly wrong LOL.

You can't exactly react while being mindhaxxed. You can't do much of anything.

Prove that it will be her first move and I'll concede, otherwise, nothing stops Kuuga from just taking distance with Gouram.

It's part of her standard kit and she uses magic ic. At 10 meters she can also summon a clone right behind him and slit his throat before he expects it with piercing weapons.

Kuuga has resistance against piercing damage even against his internal organs.

I see no reason this guy doesn't get mesmerized and just decapitated. Emily can hold off Guarnan using clones long enough to get the kill on Kuugas main body.

I don't know why you're treating like any of her attacks would one-shot Kuuga when the AP gap isn't even 2 times. Mesmerize would only be relevant if she is close enough to Kuuga to do so, which ain't happening once Gouram hops in.

Emily raising her hand > Kuuga getting on a vehicle and flying 2000km at subsonic speed (Emily could unironically run and keep up with his vehicles. Theyre both subsonic in movement speed. There's no reason she just allows Kuuga to run for KM when she is just as fast as his vehicles).

Gouram flies by itself and would aid and protect Kuuga even against his will, and why are you mentioning speed values when that attribute is equal lmao.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Magic is one of her first moves yes. Why wouldn't she use one of her most efficient spells knowing that?

Prove that she would use her best techniques at the first move. That's like me saying that Kuuga's Sealing Energy is his first move so he'll immediately use a finisher.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Magic is one of her first moves yes. Why wouldn't she use one of her most efficient spells knowing that?

Can you justify why this guys first move is running away for KM and sniping

Kuuga running away is one of many scenarios for him. Gouram is also guaranteed to help since its instinctive of it to do so.

I'm talking about specifically using doppelganger + domino to kill Kuuga. Why that specific scenario 100% of the time? If you're implying that she is going to do that then yes, Kuuga is going to lose 100% of the time.

Let's assume a different scenario:
Since they start 10 metres apart and assuming if Kuuga goes close range, wouldn't she rather go for melee? I'm seeing the gameplay rn and it looks as though she does a lot (up to the player really) Wouldn't that means she go straight into someone who is more skilled with sealing energy? This scenario Kuuga certainly has more advantages.

Depending on different scenarios and starts, results could be drastically different. One could favor Emily heavily and one could favor Kuuga heavily. Its why it looks like an incon to me.

 

[Arcker123]

It's still funny how nobody has given an explanation on just how exactly the subsonic vehicle is meant to just fly thousands of meters away from the subsonic character without any response.

 

[Shadowslash125]

It's still funny how nobody has given an explanation on just how exactly the subsonic vehicle us meant to just fly thousands of meters away from the subsonic character without any response.

iirc in subsequent summonings of Gouram, it just literally spawns next to him

 

[Arcker123]

I never said that she will get hit, I'm saying what would happen if she did get hit by Pegasus Bowgun, plus the latter is meaningless when speed is equal here.

Speed equalized doesn't change how speed works. A supersonic object is still going to take 10 or so seconds to cross 2000 meters. A supersonic character can react within a fraction of that time frame. This is just basic math.

If it won't hit her, it's not a wincon. If you think it does, you need to show how it gets past her time Slow and reflex amps.

No?? That's nowhere on her profile and every time manipulation having such range is blatantly wrong LOL.

Time Manipulation

Time Manipulation (sometimes called Chronokinesis) is the ability to control time itself. Examples include time travel, Precognition, slowing down time, speeding up time, etc. As time and space are connected, many users can also manipulate space. Another use of time manipulation is Time Stop...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dunning, meet Kruger.

Prove that it will be her first move and I'll concede, otherwise, nothing stops Kuuga from just taking distance with Gouram.

Emily's magic abilities are a core part of her kit, and are thus assumed to be part of her standard options. One of Emily's magic abilities is Mesmerize. I'm justified in believing that it will be something she'll deploy often.

Emily's can just run after Gouram and it would never outdistance her. They're both subsonic.

Kuuga has resistance against piercing damage even against his internal organs.

Cool. Resistance isn't immunity especially when faced with higher AP.

Emily just has other attacks as well.

I don't know why you're treating like any of her attacks would one-shot Kuuga when the AP gap isn't even 2 times. Mesmerize would only be relevant if she is close enough to Kuuga to do so, which ain't happening once Gouram hops in.

AP matters a lot when it comes to piercing because piercing by nature can hurt characters with higher AP/hit above weight class to some extent. So being the character with the AP edge along with piercing is just going to.

The subsonic bike outruns the subsonic character for reasons (you will never justify this).

Gouram flies by itself and would aid and protect Kuuga even against his will, and why are you mentioning speed values when that attribute is equal lmao

Hand raise > Bike flying 2000M, even in speed equal. That's not hard to understand. If two objects have the same speed, the one travellings less distance will reach its destination first.

iirc in subsequent summonings of Gouram, it just literally spawns next to him

Not relevant to the question that was asked.

Kuuga running away is one of many scenarios for him. Gouram is also guaranteed to help since its instinctive of it to do so.

Kuuga running away is the only thing he can do to not get slaughtered here. If it's not his most likely or certain option, that's just means Emily wins more often and you should vote for her because of that.

I'm talking about specifically using doppelganger + domino to kill Kuuga. Why that specific scenario 100% of the time? If you're implying that she is going to do that then yes, Kuuga is going to lose 100% of the time.

I never made this claim. I made the claim that this along with Mesmerize are far easier to pull off and more likely to work than the subsonic character running away for a mile.

Let's assume a different scenario:
Since they start 10 metres apart and assuming if Kuuga goes close range, wouldn't she rather go for melee? I'm seeing the gameplay rn and it looks as though she does a lot (up to the player really) Wouldn't that means she go straight into someone who is more skilled with sealing energy? This scenario Kuuga certainly has more advantages.

You can also look up game play of her using mesmerize and hax as well. Not compelling. Even if i grant her going into CQC, she'd still win.

The moment the fight starts, Kuuga will be in slow motion to Emily due to reflexes (Whenever she is spotted by the enemy, she slows down her perception of time. Since they are starting at 10m, Emilys moves will always go off first due to this amp. Scans on profile). She has added time to get off her domino combo, or her mesmerize on her statued opponent in CQC. Kuuga loses the quick draw contest.

Depending on different scenarios and starts, results could be drastically different. One could favor Emily heavily and one could favor Kuuga heavily. Its why it looks like an incon to me.

No one has even justified why the Pegasus bow could even hit Emily.

Emily is still more likely to win given Kuuga's best case scenario. Kuuga has absolutely no chance in Emily's best case scenario. I don't see how you can't give this to Emily.

The argument for Kuuga is absurd. It's quite literally: "she'll let him run away (even when she's perfectly capable of giving chase and stopping him with her hax) and will stand there and let herself get hit by the Pegasus gun (that she should be perfectly capable of dodging).

Domino and Mezmerize are far, far better wincons than this. Easier to pull off, and will concretely end the fight, while Kuuga has nothing that could do that. Kuuga's wincons are not equally plausible in any honest evaluation.

 

[Deceived3596]

I find myself agreeing with Arcker's conclusions more. So, put me down for Emily via his reasoning.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Speed equalized doesn't change how speed works. A supersonic object is still going to take 10 or so seconds to cross 2000 meters. A supersonic character can react within a fraction of that time frame. This is just basic math.

You mentioning this is also irrelevant when at no time did I address this, I said that your specification was unnecessary only, since the speed of both is equalized.

If it won't hit her, it's not a wincon. If you think it does, you need to show how it gets past her time Slow and reflex amps.

Show me an instance of this “time slow” intercepting projectiles in mid-flight, the only instance of time hax in his profile that is working is to move to another location quickly, and from the description this “time slow” only seems to work when it is falling.

Time Manipulation

Time Manipulation (sometimes called Chronokinesis) is the ability to control time itself. Examples include time travel, Precognition, slowing down time, speeding up time, etc. As time and space are connected, many users can also manipulate space. Another use of time manipulation is Time Stop...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dunning, meet Kruger.

"By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise." The wiki's description of Far Reach pretty much portrays it as just an ability to pull herself and objects rapidly across a distance, nothing universal there, if that is useful at all though.

Emily's magic abilities are a core part of her kit, and are thus assumed to be part of her standard options. One of Emily's magic abilities is Mesmerize. I'm justified in believing that it will be something she'll deploy often.

Emily's can just run after Gouram and it would never outdistance her. They're both subsonic.

Prove that she would use it often. You can't just assume that just because Magic is the main source of her abilities that she would unusually use just her best techniques (regardless of the opponent included) right off the bat. Okay, it's part of the standard equipment, but for her to put Kuuga to sleep, she MUST use it at the first instant, or before Gouram shoots Kuuga away.

Gouram doesn't move unidirectionally, she would need to jump miles above the ground to catch him, her point would only make sense if the beetle remained at an almost insignificant distance from the ground. And if she comes into physical contact with Gouram, she'll already be imbued with Sealing Energy or have any metal and iron equipment absorbed by him.

Cool. Resistance isn't immunity especially when faced with higher AP.

Emily just has other attacks as well.

Irrelevant when Kuuga resisted a durability negation ability. Plus Titan Form already covers the AP gap which is just 1.01 times normally, and go on.

AP matters a lot when it comes to piercing because piercing by nature can hurt characters with higher AP/hit above weight class to some extent. So being the character with the AP edge along with piercing is just going to.


The subsonic bike outruns the subsonic character for reasons (you will never justify this).

Cool, Kuuga resists piercing attacks as Titan Form though. The reasonings were mentioned a page ago, feel free to re-read as many times you wish.

Hand raise > Bike flying 2000M, even in speed equal. That's not hard to understand. If two objects have the same speed, the one travellings less distance will reach its destination first.

Again, something that would only be relevant if she used the best tricks in the first second of battle, otherwise any range-based ability would be intercepted by Pegasus Form and Gouram. You're bringing up an issue that doesn't even have any real weight here.

The moment the fight starts, Kuuga will be in slow motion to Emily due to reflexes (Whenever she is spotted by the enemy, she slows down her perception of time. Since they are starting at 10m, Emilys moves will always go off first due to this amp. Scans on profile). She has added time to get off her domino combo, or her mesmerize on her statued opponent in CQC. Kuuga loses the quick draw contest.

Again, prove that she will magically think of using such in-person tricks. Reflexes is countered by Pegasus Form's enhanced senses and abysmally more advanced ESP, Gouram will instinctively protect or carry Kuuga out of range if Godai is in real danger. Repeating the same techniques without having the pillar of how the character uses those techniques IN character doesn't give any weight to your base.

No one has even justified why the Pegasus bow could even hit Emily.

Because no one argued that Kuuga could do it, just as Emily wouldn't have enough range to hit Gouram when he's already miles above the ground. At least read the rest of the votes calmly.

Emily is still more likely to win given Kuuga's best case scenario. Kuuga has absolutely no chance in Emily's best case scenario. I don't see how you can't give this to Emily.

Because absolutely nothing of hers has been shown to have the range or power to affect Gouram or Pegasus Form. The rest is highly explanatory, capable of Godai's reactive adaptation becoming more useful depending on how prolonged the combat is.

The argument for Kuuga is absurd. It's quite literally: "she'll let him run away (even when she's perfectly capable of giving chase and stopping him with her hax) and will stand there and let herself get hit by the Pegasus gun (that she should be perfectly capable of dodging).

Domino and Mezmerize are far, far better wincons than this. Easier to pull off, and will concretely end the fight, while Kuuga has nothing that could do that. Kuuga's wincons are not equally plausible in any honest evaluation.

Not only did you strawman the whole thing without the slightest sense, but that same line of reasoning reflects your line of events based on how Emily would act here. You simply assume that Emily would use all her best powers because... yeah? If you CAN prove ONLY this point, then I will concede, until then, I will remain in Inconclusive.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Speed equalized doesn't change how speed works. A supersonic object is still going to take 10 or so seconds to cross 2000 meters. A supersonic character can react within a fraction of that time frame. This is just basic math.

Speed Equalization is applied to Emily, not Kuuga. While yes, this might be common knowledge and Emily will still be faster than Kuuga in reaction speed, keep in mind that Kuuga has experience against these sorts of enemies, as seen when he could go toe to toe with this kaijin in his base form who dodged an upgraded version of Pegasus' shots. Not to mention that Pegasus itself is going to be cracked enough to circumvent this.

Emily's magic abilities are a core part of her kit, and are thus assumed to be part of her standard options. One of Emily's magic abilities is Mesmerize. I'm justified in believing that it will be something she'll deploy often.

But then we also have to take into account if she does it first, not often. If Kuuga has cleared his distance, she can use it as much as she likes cuz she's going to be too far away for her magic to even work if she doesn't deploy any of these first in character.

Emily's can just run after Gouram and it would never outdistance her. They're both subsonic.

Did you know that Gouram flies? It's a flying inorganic beetle-like summon. With wings. And besides, Gouram should be as fast as Kuuga's bikes which in turn might be faster than Emily.

Cool. Resistance isn't immunity especially when faced with higher AP.
Emily just has other attacks as well.

AP matters a lot when it comes to piercing because piercing by nature can hurt characters with higher AP/hit above weight class to some extent. So being the character with the AP edge along with piercing is just going to.

With such a small gap in AP, this can be rectified by Kuuga turning into Titan Form, which is very tanky and would probably have enough defense to make this point moot.

The subsonic bike outruns the subsonic character for reasons (you will never justify this).

I mean it already does so yeah.

Not relevant to the question that was asked.

It is, because it's going to be easy for Gouram to whisk him away if he's literally right by his side.

And since most of the points I wanted to bring up has already been done so, I am just going to ask this

What does Emily really do in character? Stillwinston said she's low chaos and will go for non-lethal means while also going into stealth first. Having this answer can determine whether this whole match is an incon or Emily's decisive victory.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Kuuga running away is the only thing he can do to not get slaughtered here. If it's not his most likely or certain option, that's just means Emily wins more often and you should vote for her because of that.

I never made this claim. I made the claim that this along with Mesmerize are far easier to pull off and more likely to work than the subsonic character running away for a mile.

Kuuga's Dragon Form which boosts agility and speed should be able to cover that. (About a 2.6x speed amp)

You can also look up game play of her using mesmerize and hax as well. Not compelling. Even if i grant her going into CQC, she'd still win.

The moment the fight starts, Kuuga will be in slow motion to Emily due to reflexes (Whenever she is spotted by the enemy, she slows down her perception of time. Since they are starting at 10m, Emilys moves will always go off first due to this amp. Scans on profile). She has added time to get off her domino combo, or her mesmerize on her statued opponent in CQC. Kuuga loses the quick draw contest.

Unless Kuuga goes Dragon Form and then he gets his speed amp.

No one has even justified why the Pegasus bow could even hit Emily.

Emily is still more likely to win given Kuuga's best case scenario. Kuuga has absolutely no chance in Emily's best case scenario. I don't see how you can't give this to Emily.

The argument for Kuuga is absurd. It's quite literally: "she'll let him run away (even when she's perfectly capable of giving chase and stopping him with her hax) and will stand there and let herself get hit by the Pegasus gun (that she should be perfectly capable of dodging).

Domino and Mezmerize are far, far better wincons than this. Easier to pull off, and will concretely end the fight, while Kuuga has nothing that could do that. Kuuga's wincons are not equally plausible in any honest evaluation.

Pegasus Bowgun's shots are more like this. maybe around 1.5 seconds to get from well above skyscraper level to ground.
Ngl, I fail to see want Emily can do once Gouram flies to above skyscraper level and starts shooting from above. Which is why we hammered that point which tbf we said "running away" as if it was on ground . In actually, it flies up pretty far.

For the cqc, as said above, Titan form and Gouram have durability that is able to no sell against attacks that are far above both Emily and Kuuga Mighty Form's ap. He can quickly change into that. Forms changes are neigh instant basically.

 

[Stillwinston]

Emily's can just run after Gouram and it would never outdistance her. They're both subsonic.

Now I can't shake the image of her running after Kuuga like he owes child support money lol. Am on mobile will tally votes later. For FYI iirc it was canon that Emily is low chaos but she'd be open to killing if need be, based off Corvo's teachings at the very least

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump, think I added the votes right

 

[ZeedKZ]

Pegasus Form is becoming a 83x perception amp now btw.

 

[Stillwinston]

Damn, I mean Emily can still do something to win I guess? I was gonna throw Kuuga at someone from Fallout after this lol

 

[ZeedKZ]

Yeah, she can incap Kuuga with Domino and Mesmerize if she uses in time.

 

[Shadowslash125]

The wincons still remain the same. It's just that Kuuga has a better perception amp now.

 

[Stillwinston]

Awesome might put him up against the sole survivor from fallout, thought about Courier but his SI is stronk lol

 

[ZeedKZ]

Given how Godai is, he would be one of the easiest guys to the Courier take out from a fight via sheer speech.

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump, liked this match lol

 

[Shadowslash125]

Pegasus Form is becoming a 83x perception amp now btw.

Here's the update.
How does it change things now?

 

[Stillwinston]

From what I see here's the things in favour of both

Kuuga

• Can snipe from a range that Emily can't get to
• Would also perception blitz if they do go Pegasus and take to the skies
• Likely better in skill overall, though Emily can still pose a danger to him here
• Sealing energy is beyond her regen
• Can 2v1 here

Emily

• Domino is smth that would be an instant gg if she pulls it off, which can be used with animals too iirc
• Mesmerise will at least stun Kuuga and let Emily sucker punch him with anything more or less
• Heart will tell her not to let Kuuga flee her among other things
• Has ways to disable Kuuga's summons from what I see
• Doppelgangers can be used to help fight and or link Kuuga for Domino

Ap is pretty pointless here as they're roughly comparable and Emily's blade is cancelled out by Kuuga's armour form iirc

 

[Shadowslash125]

Has ways to disable Kuuga's summons from what I see

Could you elaborate on this?

Would also perception blitz if they do go Pegasus and take to the skies

Kuuga would likely go into Pegasus form if Emily goes for the stealth option, which you said is likely her in-character action, to find her using his senses.

 

[Stillwinston]

Could you elaborate on this?


Kuuga would likely go into Pegasus form if Emily goes for the stealth option, which you said is likely her in-character action, to find her using his senses.

Emily could use things like Rewire Tool, Stun Mines, Explosive Bullets or Sticky Grenades there I think. She could send out dopplegangers to help her in fighting there as last I checked they act just like her and she can swap places with them

 

[Shadowslash125]

Emily could use things like Rewire Tool, Stun Mines, Explosive Bullets or Sticky Grenades there I think

I'm not sure if that's going to help much since Gouram in later episodes practically spawn next to Kuuga. But I'd love to hear it.

She could send out dopplegangers to help her in fighting there as last I checked they act just like her and she can swap places with them

This might help since I'm not sure if Kuuga can figure out which doppelganger is real or not (does it appear the same as Emily to other people?) by his enhanced perception, so I'll leave it to the others for that.

Otherwise, this really is even.

 

[Stillwinston]

Stun Mines produce powerful electrical shocks that can incap people and it overclocks robots into shutting down, rewire tools can make things like the laser walls in DH1 and 2 work in your favour. She also has magnitzed bullets which can disrupt electronics.

For her doppelgangers yeah they pretty much look just like her, they can trigger alarms if they get spotted by people and if a doppelganger gets killed the guards will be like "Okay that's done back to patrol." which would include witches who are also blessed with similar powers to her iirc

 

[ZeedKZ]

Gouram can withstand electricity as it is compatible with Kuuga's Rising Forms which is entirely based off electricity. Plus Gouram is not technological at all, it predates tech from modern society, it shares Kuuga's energy source (Amadam), which is why it is sencient.

 

[IxaSaga2]

Oof, if she decides to use electricity then she might accidently amp Kuuga into the stratosphere (not an exaggeration). Also would like to add that Kuuga has a 2.6x speed boost for Dragon form now

 

[Stillwinston]

Well the heart would tell her its a bad idea then and she still has explosives to aid her, she has perception amps with far reach to help there too and clones that she can send out to distract him.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Well the heart would tell her its a bad idea then and she still has explosives to aid her, she has perception amps with far reach to help there too and clones that she can send out to distract him.

The heart has to be quick to tell her things because more often than not, Kuuga is going to find out where Emily is slinking in due to his 86x perception amp in Pegasus Form. It's not joke and it's more concrete than Emily's perception amp.

Far Reach might not be able to reach the kilometres that Kuuga is able to clear and it's going to get harder when Gouram helps Kuuga do it faster and easier.

The clone part is probably the only thing going for her, but Kuuga might be able to find any hidden and very real Emily after he's dealt with the clones especially if he's in the air.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Keep in mind, Gouram can absorb matter at atomic level, if it ever rams against Emily, any metal and other substances she is using will be immediately absorbed.

 

[Stillwinston]

The heart has to be quick to tell her things because more often than not, Kuuga is going to find out where Emily is slinking in due to his 86x perception amp in Pegasus Form. It's not joke and it's more concrete than Emily's perception amp.

Far Reach might not be able to reach the kilometres that Kuuga is able to clear and it's going to get harder when Gouram helps Kuuga do it faster and easier.

The clone part is probably the only thing going for her, but Kuuga might be able to find any hidden and very real Emily after he's dealt with the clones especially if he's in the air.

There's also Mesmerise that lets her do stuff too, including him forgetting where she is iirc. Domino is also a thing going for her as we said before lol. Heart has cosmic awareness from what's said in the profile so it'd know everything about Kuuga and what best to warn about

Keep in mind, Gouram can absorb matter at atomic level, if it ever rams against Emily, any metal and other substances she is using will be immediately absorbed.

Alright that can take care of her weapons, her dopplegangers would still have them tho iirc and doesn't stop her using powers as all she'd do is raise her hand to use them

 

[Shadowslash125]

There's also Mesmerise that lets her do stuff too, including him forgetting where she is iirc.

Forgetting doesn't mean that Kuuga won't ever find her again, since Kuuga will still likely have the advantage of his x86 perception amp that might just have him find her as quickly as before he got mesmerized.

Domino is also a thing going for her as we said before lol.

That is her wincon as we have said, but she has to do it fast and before Kuuga gets the hint and goes away. Remember that she goes into stealth first thing, as you've said. Also for the incap, Gouram can likely take part in combat since Kuuga has to be incapped for a certain amount of time.

Heart has cosmic awareness from what's said in the profile so it'd know everything about Kuuga and what best to warn about

There's the speed to how fast the Heart can relay information to her before Kuuga finds her location and snipes her from afar.

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Arcker123]

Have we reached consensus or do I need to respond.

(Busy couple of weeks with school. Sorry for not responding in a reasonable time frame).

 

[Stillwinston]

All good no probs, I don't think anyone has changed their votes atm afaik

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump?

 

[Shadowslash125]

For now my vote still remains in incon until anything new comes up.

 

[Arcker123]

Incon Fra. I'm fine with that now.

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump, not sure if I counted the votes right

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump