A Couple New Rules

[Imaginym]

I'm of the opinion that the human commander/team leader/tamer/trainer, should have stats of their own as well.

It's a legitimate weakness, & frankly, I think there's value in being able to index the stats of those humans & debate how they would fare in VsBattles.

For example: Ash Ketchum has feats of his own, & at the very least, I think it would be a waste just to have it so that the Ash Ketchum page throws out ALL OF HIS OWN stats & only lists his Pokemon.

Why name a profile after someone when you're not even going to index THEIR stats, but rather, those of other individuals entirely?

Also, in some cases, unique individuals differ from the norm for their species (AFAIK, not actually under a trainer, but PMD Wigglytuff is definitely different in strength from a typical Wigglytuff.), & so the profiles should account for those non-standard-for-their-species team members.

Trainer, tamer, duelist or what have you, it seems obvious that if they have feats or such independent of their team of creatures, then those should be listed on a profile named after that person.

In theory, we could just have separate profiles for the trainers/tamers/duelists/whatever that link to one another, or make 1 profile per team & commander. Ex: "Ash Ketchum & his Pokemon." or just "Ash Ketchum".

Couldn't we?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk seems to make sense in terms of keeping separate tabs for the summoner and maximum summons statistics.

 

[Crzer07]

Do every "summons" unconditionally obey the summoners? In the case of YGO where the summons have limited or no will of its own (agency) then its stats would unquestionably share with the ones that commands them. In the case of digimon the digimons possess the same amount of agency and intelligence as the tamers themselves so it would be questionable that they would do absolutely anything that the tamers tell them to do, thus I think digimon (or any other verses where summoners and summons are on equal footing) would be a special case for having separate profiles. It would be akin to giving orders to a loyal servant bodyguard and having yourself scale to your bodyguards on the basis of them being loyal to you.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'm glad Yu-Gi-Oh is listed as a topic here. First off, thank you for making this thread. However, in terms of card games such as Yu-Gi-Oh or Vanguard, how would a fight work with those in another verse? Unlike Pokemon and Digimon, they use cards and game specific mechanics, despite how they affect the world around them, or even the duelists themselves. So if say, Yusei, who is High 4-C was pitted against someone like Frieza, how would such a fight even play out?

I dont know about Vanguard, but Yugioh profiles have specific safeguards against this. We arent allowed to use game mechanics to justify AP or abilities, so right of the bat, that makes it a lot easier to weed out problems like that. Often times, the spirits of the monsters themselves fight as well, so we can calculate the AP from that. We can also use effects on the real world like Thunder Giant's thunderstorm or Jack's sealing. We just have to assume they would be directly fighting rather than playing a game.

 

[Crzer07]

and the case for yugioh where it requires specific conditions to produce the maximum amount of AP/dura as they cannot just replicate the effect at anytime, so it should be stated they have such stats with prep. Though not sure if it counts as prep if the things require to make them is part of your standard equipment, although since stuff like Heart of the Cards is a thing in the verse then prep is likely not needed

 

[Yobo_Blue]

and the case for yugioh where it requires specific conditions to produce the maximum amount of AP/dura as they cannot just replicate the effect at anytime, so it should be stated they have such stats with prep. Though not sure if it counts as prep if the things require to make them is part of your standard equipment.

I dont think that applies to the current profiles

 

[Antvasima]

In another thread, Ryukama gave good reasons for why we should only list a summoner's/trainer's own statistics within a profile, as othervise it would be like giving Goku Zen'o's statistics with the summoning button.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well the onl problem I have is that for like protagonists and characters who appear before the protagonist multiple time, their teams should have multiple tiers. For the sake of progression over the course of the game. Sayo as Cal linked above is basically this. We have even marked off what abilities said Digimon should have if they were a certain level.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

In another thread, Ryukama gave good reasons for why we should only list a summoner's/trainer's own statistics within a profile, as othervise it would be like giving Goku Zen'o's statistics with the summoning button.

Well at the same time we discussed that there and what we basically said was that these files basically represent the team more than the human controlling them. It's the capabilities of the team as a whole. I have also given a reason to why we do this.

"in most cases, these teams perform feats outside of the norm for others individuals of said species. Also, they tend to have different abilities and such due to this as well. For example, Pokemon Trainer Pokemon usually have moves that an normal Pokemon of the same species cannot have normally. Digimon Tamers at times have Digimon come from unorthodox digivolution lines (That we do not allow. Only sensical lines are allowed) in order to grant them other abilities and as such are different from the other individuals of said species."

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Well, I think that either DontTalk's or Ryukama's solutions seem best.

 

[DontTalkDT]

In another thread, Ryukama gave good reasons for why we should only list a summoner's/trainer's own statistics within a profile, as othervise it would be like giving Goku Zen'o's statistics with the summoning button.

I remember participating in a thread where giving goku stats like these were actually discussed...

In general there is a difference between something like this help call button and a summoned beast.

Freyja is a good example where listing only the summoners statistics makes no sense, since she has no fighting style beyond summoning, her summons have no free will and basically don't exist as characters beyond when she summons them (not sure wether they exist at all, or she outright creates them when she needs them). Similar things would go for most kind of summons that are used in RPG's as Ultimate moves (Golden Suns for example).

Zen'o on the other hand does exist as a character with a live not centered around being some summoned being and is not obligated or even inclined to obey the wishes of goku.

Of course many cases are not as clear as those two, but to this point I had the impression that people were quite reasonable to which belongs to what. Hence I didn't think writing a rule regarding that was necessary.

In regards for pokémon and digimon in particular:

Pokémon, after being caught, largely don't exist as characters outside the battles where they obey what the trainer is telling them.

Digimon is more bordeline in that regards, as if I recall the anime correctly, they mostly do the fighting without instructions from the tamer and have lives beyond battles. Hence it makes sense to have profiles like Taichis Agumo, instead of a profile for Tachi using Agumon, albeit I personally don't mind profiles like Sayo either (though at that length it would probably be better to write seperate profiles for her digimons and just link them as standard equipement or standard partners without repeating stats on her profile).


In the end all that is important is that it is clear to a reader what the summoner can do on his own and what each summoned being can do on its own. Listing a characters stats in two profiles should be avoided and profiles should be kept to reasonable length.

As long as that is given I think it isn't even that important how that was archieved in writing the profiles.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

The issue with that, is that it's out of character for them to fight without dueling, which directly goes against Standard battle assumptions. Not to mention that they use a plethora of spells and traps, such that only having the monsters fight would also severely limit their abilities.

Also, I'm not sure about this "AP with prep" thing. Certain monsters are able to do certain things, and the mere summoning of monsters can often times cause rather destructive effects. The summoning of Antinomy's delta accel synchro monster, Jaden's Thunder Giant. Even the destruction of monsters can cause cataclysmic effects, such as Zarc's destruction, or the merging of the Barian and Astral worlds. Or perhaps the loss of one's soul. The monsters have this power all on their own. The only 'prep' would be the cards required to summon the monster, however, that itself is simply game mechanics. And some effects can only be achieved through game mechanics, such as with spells and traps, summoning a monster with a specific monster as xyz material, using a certain turner in a synchro summon, using a specific spell card to fusion or ritual summon, trap effects from grave. There are simply so many variables that would be taken away if the rule were to simply be "Let's just have their monsters fight." We'd also have to decide which monster.

I'm personally all for having these profiles, but I don't think it'll be feasible to have Yu-Gi-Oh characters in battles outside of their verse. At least for the duelists themselves. The mechanics of the game are simply too important to how they fight. Cardfight Vanguard is another card game where such a thing could apply, though I don't play that game so I am less knowledgeable on it. I was simply providing another example.

 

[Dark649]

For Game Eggma, i have left his physical stats while linking his invections in a section.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

Okay. I suppose that your solution is probably best then.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree with separate keys as well.

How many profiles do we need to change?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Litentric I think it's been established that they will fight opponents head on if they don't duel. It isn't too much of a stretch to say they will fight in a thread where we already assume they kill their opponent. Regardless, it may be necessary to continue this discussion in another thread, since the topic in question has been resolved, at least in the context of this thread.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Yobobojojo

Fighting head on most times means a duel. Even in Arc V where the monsters were fighting against each other is somewhat drawn out battles, it was in the context of a duel. Fighting outside of a duel could mean a variety fo things, such as Jaden manifesting cards like trap hole to cause real world effects, To Bakura stealing souls, to Yusei just plain beating the crap outta folk. Duels are the way they fight, that's what's been established. It's very seldom that they find a means to fight outside of dueling.

However, I agree that this is a topci for another thread.

 

[Crzer07]

The AP needing to be specified as prep was proposed by Everlasting in one of the YGO revisions in the past, not sure if it still needed

I think people like Daenerys Targarye should have their commanded creatures stats, as she's in a similar case with the Pokemon's. Other than that I'm also fine with DT's solution.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, DontTalk suggested two separate statistics keys: One for their own statistics, and one for their strongest controlled creatures.

 

[Kepekley23]

So, should we remove the keys for their weaker creatures?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. I suppose that it depends on how much unnecessary work it would cause us.

 

[Kepekley23]

I personally disagree with removing them. It would require removing matches that would be perfectly within our rules otherwise, which would almost definitely generate a plethora of problems & confusion.

But I'm perfectly fine with tamers\trainers having their own statistics. Ash's profile already follows this model, if i remember correctly.

I can help with this if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that it seems unnecessary to remove lots of statistics keys at this point.

If tamers/trainers/summoners have no statistics of their own, they should get it though.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@Ant


Agreed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It's been awhile. So were my regulations accepted or do they need to be fixed a bit?

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop thinks they are in acception, but thats what Hop read.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm unsure how much weight it may hold, but I believe I've stated my opinion in this thread before: That indexed info on the trainer's/tamers/whatever-you-call-'em shouldn't just be not documented & discarded just because their team has statistics.

I feel that if the human has feats or powers or statistics of abilities of note, beyond just commanding or using items, it's proper to have them displayed. For every match that might be made focusing on their team, someone make a VsBattle where a tamer or such who's beyond the average human in ability gets a VsBattle of their own.

With that in mind, I'd support anti-trainer/tamer/whatever-attacking rules... Provided they're optional. Not every match will focus on their team, & in some cases, it can be realistic to say their team would defend them, or fight on without them, etc.

In the context of a VsBattle debate, there are a lot of possibilities. I can see the origin of the rule, but many debates could be somewhat inaccurate to how combat might occur with that rule, I feel. Not to mention, the option of trying to attack the trainer isn't always a "Checkmate" situation.

I'm unsure how I feel about team limit rules. They seem faithful to the series, but is things like 6 Pokemon just game mechanics? Plus, what if a team commander somehow ends up with more creatures than the usual team limit, either fighting alongside them, or under their command? Is the limit still accurate then?

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragonmasterxyz

I no longer remember. My apologies.

I browsed through my previous responses though, and think that they seem to make sense.