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Arceus: The Jewel of Inconsistency

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Arceus the jewel of life is immensely inconsistent with arceus's power in and out of the movie it appeared in, here are a list of inconsistencies that are present in the movie.

Inconsistency #1 Arceus gets hit by a meteorite(i am aware this has been acknowledged as an outlier but i'm putting it here to support the fact that the movie is so inconsistent)

Inconsistency #2 Arceus almost gets killed by normal goddamn pokemon and yet the CT was no match for it, this is irrevocably inconsistent with it's power in the same movie it appeared in (they couldn't even remember their own logic)

Inconsistency #3 Arceus gets affected by pikachu now i am aware that a lot of anime pikachu's feats don't make sense but arceus should not be affected by such an infinitesimal being that should not be able to even touch it.


Option 1: we remove all ATJOL feats from it's profile(the attack animations can stay and life manip would stay as well)


or


Option 2: we add an Avatars key to arceus with Varies as it's tier and arceus's true form gets it's own key with straight 2-B as it's tier.
 
Personally I have always fealt that the creation trio and Arceus should have avatar keys, but I think it has already been discussed elsewhere along the lines of "not necessary" or something, I may not be remembering correctly though.
 
Inconsistency #1 Arceus gets hit by a meteorite(i am aware this has been acknowledged as an outlier but i'm putting it here to support the fact that the movie is so inconsistent)
Arceus didn't get hit or even hurt by the meteorite, it willingly charged into it and destroyed it. The thing that made it almost die was the fact it lost its plates in the collision. The movie for some reason treats the plates as if they are an essence of its life force and it has like an Immortality Type 8 bond to it. Honestly I feel like the idea got retconned though and goes against the games. Literally all of the plates are scattered across regions and this doesn't remotely affect Arceus in the games and it was never even brought up again.

Inconsistency #2 Arceus almost gets killed by normal goddamn pokemon and yet the CT was no match for it, this is irrevocably inconsistent with it's power in the same movie it appeared in (they couldn't even remember their own logic)
Arceus wasn't being killed by the Pokemon, they were just incapacitating it for the time being with electric attacks. The thing that was "killing" it was the Silver Water used to make it cease motion. That part is just plain PIS in general. Now if you're going to apply the idea it was harmed by them, that was because it also lost the Jewel of Life, which made it incredibly vulnerable to electric type attacks because that's one of the elemental plates it gave Damos. Again, this relates back to the fact the plates are seen as its life force originally so this is more or less retconned now.

Inconsistency #3 Arceus gets affected by pikachu now i am aware that a lot of anime pikachu's feats don't make sense but arceus should not be affected by such an infinitesimal being that should not be able to even touch it.
I mean, the fact you have to acknowledge Pikachu has a lot of feats at a wayyyyyyyy higher level then it should would already imply it's likely a PIS Moment/Outlier for Pikachu. Even then, it's literally just the same case Number 2.
 
Inverted Tempest said:
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when arceus still had it's plates it was struggling against a ******* meteorite that makes no sense.

a 2-B being should not even be affected regardless of it losing a piece of it's power let alone them being able to incapacitate it

i know that pikachu has a lot of BS feats but it would only support the fact that the movie is inconsistent and wrong.
 
All it did was break down the meteor and it "struggled" because the meteor affected the plates with shockwaves and blew them far away from it. It was literally pulverizing the meteor otherwise.

That's not just a piece of his power, that's literally a core part of its life force. It became a weakness of Arceus after that happened. Arceus isn't the only example of such a thing. Marle from Chrono Trigger for example is very vulnerable to fire. Does that mean we should downgrade them because they could be affected by lower tier Fire Manip? Of course not. You're literally ignoring the context, in which Incapacitation makes sense. Do you think you can no sell a weakness? That goes against the very idea of a weakness.

How would that support the movie being wrong if that trend has already been established with Pikachu beforehand? Also, Point 2 applies here as well.
 
no arceus was struggling even with the plates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btEnsQjUb1A arceus clearly used all the plates when pushing against the meteorite and the plates only got knocked away AFTER the meteor exploded arceus clearly should have destroyed the meteor with immense ease but it didn't because plot.

yeah because arceus giving away less than half of it's "life force" would obviously downgrade it to 3-D levels of durability alright just because a 4-D being lost resistance to electricity doesn't mean it should be affected by 3-D electricity only being vulnerable to 4-D electricity because that actually makes logical sense it doesn't matter if you have immense 3-D power you could never affect a 4-D being.

because the feat appeared in the movie? duh it only supports it being inconsistent even if the trend has already been established.
 
but still, why Creation trio and Arceus cannot have keys for avatars? they have different speeds (infinite and omnipresent), but not different AP
 
Arceus literally was destroying the meteor with ease, it just tackled it and the entire thing wasn't being phased until like one moment at the end where the explosion started to happen to send its plates away. I've seen the clip as well, I literally wouldn't be arguing against your claim if I hadn't.

What part of a weakness can you not comprehensibly fathom? The entire idea of a weakness is to literally justify something that wouldn't make completely any sense otherwise. I gave you an example of a character, but I'm assuming you want an actual higher dimensional equivalent? This wiki already sticks to such explanations. Back when the Super Hedgehogs were just Planet level and Solaris was 4D, the idea was that they could beat him because of vulnerable points. That only got changed due to a push awhile back to note they tank attacks and such, but we already note such things even if they are a 4D being. Arceus is only noted as being physically 3D in dimensionality IIRC here regardless, only 4D in AP which could unironically make its case worse.

You literally mentioned something that debunks your own point. You can't try to say the movie's feats involving Pikachu are proof of nulling its applications if you outright acknowledge that there are already problems regarding it. It's a self-contradictory premise, which immediately invalidated your conclusion.
 
Inverted Tempest said:
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no arceus wasn't destroying the meteor with ease show me where in that clip it shows arceus destroying it with ease

oh then i guess that Higher-Dimensional Existence listed on arceus's page doesn't exist then?

um i don't see what you mean by this pikachu doing that feat contributes to the trend while also furthering the fact that the movie is inconsistent since the feat appeared in the movie itself the feat belongs to both the movie and pikachu so it would be inconsistent for the movie and pikachu.
 
Option 1 seems fair. It has too many inconsistencies (even in of itself) to be considered evidence for anything really. Though I doubt Arceus has anything that's exclusive to Jewel of Life to be honest.
 
You can literally look at the clip. It's just tackling the meteor and it was literally shredding apart from that.

Again, that's why I said IIRC. When did I assert that as a fact? And that literally doesn't change the point I made beforehand, all that means is it falls directly inline with a more related analogy.

No... I've already reiterated to you as to why it's not inconsistent in the last comment and just comes from the plot. All that means is that the movie just falls victim to a trend that's already established. Your egregious logic would unironically retcon numerous events from the canon just because the plot demanded Pikachu did something significant.

The problem with removing the Jewel of Life is that we'd have to literally retcon the existence of every other movie as well. We can't just say it didn't happen, there are literal references provided from Sky Warrior and Shadow of Darkrai there. All I can really see applying here is that there is that the meteor note is expanded upon.
 
if arceus truly wasn't struggling it should have destroyed the meteor from just being near it or even when touching it with a light tap stop trying to defend this stupid scene.

well yes it does change your point because you actually believe that losing some plates would downgrade a 4-D being to 3-D levels of durability it doesn't matter if it lost resist to electricity it shouldn't have been affected plain and simple you're taking weakness and making it seem like a normal being can affect a much higher being because that higher being lost resist to electricity and the normal being is an electricity user all that weakness means is that the higher being isn't resistant to electricity that is 4-D

i don't understand how hard it is to realize that a feat that appeared in a movie belongs to that movie it's pretty simple logic actually.

look at MLP IDW the main series is canon to it but the comic series is not canon to the main series.
 
I still think we should make an Avatar key for the Creation Trio (and would be Low 2-C via scaling to Avatar Dialga still manipulating a timeline with his heartbeat).
 
Avatar key lacks evidence but would make sense. I honestly doubt Lucas/Dawn scale to 2-C, likely 2-B for taking on Dialga, Palkia and Giratina after all and Arceus has been contended with in events, Pokemon Ranger, Anime, etc despite being so hilariously above anything in the franchise.
 
I agree with the idea of avatar keys, but treating JoL as non-canon and remove his powers cause "It's not consistent" is just... no.
 
ATJOL is alternative canon like the other movies and pokemon media there are so many different canons that there is no singular definitve one.
 
I'm addressing it because your logic to address the scene is atrocious. Are you really complaining about the method of how a character destroyed something? Because it wasn't flashy enough for what you perceive it should've been? This would unironically be like arguing that Dracula isn't Planet level because he's not destroying the planet while he's fighting the Belmonts. So no, I won't stop defending this "stupid scene" because I find your notion to be flawed, it's as simple as that.

"well yes it does change your point because you actually believe that losing some plates would downgrade a 4-D being to 3-D levels of durability"

K, lets define a weakness, "a quality or feature regarded as a disadvantage or fault." I've given you several examples of characters on this wiki who already share a weakness note for the exact same reasons. Marle, Solaris, etc. Let me give you the most classical example of a weakspot. Achilles is known for being literally immune to god hax, but something like a normal human or a poison arrow can kill him due to his heel not being invulnerable. Should we just ignore that attribute of Achilles now and say it's an outlier? **** no, that's disregarding a genuine attribute of Achilles that integral to his plot. Doesn't sound familiar to I don't know... maybe the llama god who had an explanation as to why he was weak to electricity? At this point, I've given you two examples of the exact same calibur where someone can withstand 4D attacks but lose to something 3D. You've presented absolutely nothing and continue to pester on with no genuine basis.

I literally never said it didn't belong to the movie, you are strawmanning what I said. I said you cannot discredit the movie just because Pikachu did that. You literally acknowledged yourself there was a flaw to what you said because this has continually happened with Pikachu, so it's not a one time thing. You know what those got chalked up to? Being outliers. What happened passed that? Absolutely nothing because something being a noticeable trend of inconsistency every now and again means you just ignore it and move o.

Also, even if I were to concede on all of my points, when in the absolute flying **** has something being an outlier equate to being non-cano? Please tell me what sort of nonsensical bullshit helps reach such a conclusion. The movies directly tie into the Anime, the entire point of Mewtwo Strikes Back opens up with how Gary experiences fighting Mewtwo and gets destroyed, which is literally referenced again in the movie, and Mewtwo goes off to New Island and does the rest. Again, we cannot invalidate Jewel of Life simply because it has a place in the canon and having outliers present =/= doesn't exist as you'll need to explain how you even thought of that. Major false equivalency on your behalf as well because IDW is expressed as being a different universe from what I've heard.

I'm fine with honestly adding a key for avatars, it would clear a lot of the confusion behind some of the scenes but there would need to be more solid backing to it in the source material other than "Hur dur outlier!1!1!1!". The old reasoning could probably be factored into it but we are absolutely not ignoring Jewel of Life.
 
No it's not, it's literally in the exact same canon, they're just set in different universes. Jewel of Life would fall under being applied to the Anime for reasons I provided above already.
 
Inverted Tempest said:
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you're clearly interpreting the scene much different than i am the way i see it arceus was struggling because he made an active effort to stop the meteor and didn't just explode it by walking through it with it's barrier, the way you see it arceus wasn't struggling(despite him bringing out all it's plates) and was demolishing the meteor we clearly can not see what the other side sees in this scene and thus this will just lead to further back and forth debate with no end so i suggest we stop talking about the meteor(especially since it was already agreed upon that it was an outlier)

i don't see what marle has anything to do with this since i've never played chrono trigger and solaris was being attacked by 3 ridiculously haxed hedgehogs and solaris's weakness is not at all comparable to what we're discussing right now and achilles is not higher dimensional you're comparing characters that are not at all comparable to arceus and trying to debunk me using these examples, please provide better examples to explain your point better.

yes i absolutely can discredit an outlier/PIS moment from pikachu that appeared in the movie to discredit the movie since it appeared in the movie itself and the way you were explaining your point made it seem like to me that you were insinuating that the feat should only belong to pikachu so my bad if you meant something else and you should not ignore an inconsistent trend that has appeared in the movie the whole point of me bringing up that feat was to further my point that the movie was inconsistent.

where did i say it being an outlier means it's not canon? i said that the feats in the movie should be removed from the profile since mostly all of arceus's feats are contradicted by something else latter on and thus using info from the movie for the profile would make profile untrustworthy in my eyes even if it's a composite and where did you hear that IDW was an alt universe? because it specifically states in the page that the main series is canon to IDW but IDW is not canon to the main series because of major inconsistencies i only used IDW MLP to show that because an event that happened in an earlier movie is mentioned or shown in a latter movie does not necessarily mean that latter movie is canon to the earlier movie or vice versa.
 
Why in the hell are we discrediting the existence of a material cause it has outliers/PIS? Unless you can prove that the writers at nintendo are vs debaters that are aware of things like this then no, you can't discredit anything because of "Outliers/PIS" worse you can do is make a clear as day PIS feat non-usable.
 
I'm fine with dropping the meteor thing I suppose since the profile already makes a note that technically we aren't even allowed to discuss it.

I used Marle for the sake of comparison for the initial thing, which is just that you could be super vulnerable to something even if it was at a lower tier. I suppose you wanted a more extreme example, which is why I provided Solaris. They weren't remotely spamming any sort of hax that would negate durability or anything like that in the fight, I'm not sure what your point was with "super haxxed hedgehogs". All they legit had done was throw energy attacks and ram into vulnerable points, it very much is comparable when you're acting like higher dimensionality is enough to justify this as not making sense. Clearly it does make sense if there are other examples aside from Arceus. Realistically the thing with Achilles shouldn't be much different. His immunities should get him to a 4D level, yet he still can be affected by something simple as an arrow. Solaris is a good comparison and I would affirm Achilles is a good example because he is the most classical example of how a weakness can be exploited despite a perceived invulnerability, which is why "Achilles Heel" exists as a term. The only example I would agree remotely not be good would be Marle here and that just be because she doesn't fit your specific premise you're entailing.

Why would you remotely be using that as a way to discredit the movie if that's just something that happens from time to time already? I've asked this multiple times. I've yet to get a sufficient response regarding this. Let me give you the logic lesson here. An outlier is a term used for something that's a statistical anomaly. Considering how wide-spanning the Pokemon series is, it's literally just going to include multiple outliers given the wide array of feats we can convey, which would weaken the correlation strength of feats. This is most definitely true for Pikachu, meaning the fact it has occurred quite a few number of times means that it's not breaking any trends or expectations. I'm simply posing that if we use this type of logic to determine that something shouldn't apply, would we do that with any fight where Pikachu fights someone above 7-A and gets a W? You should get the point by now. It's really not a good reason to say we shouldn't accept the movie if there were already past expectations for their to be such feats at points in time. It's rather poor and very unrefined in that it would cause a ripple effect to literally any fight/arc of Pokemon where Pikachu or a Pokemon above their tier gets a W like that when they shouldn't.

That was how you were implying it, especially with the fact you made it sound like we should remove all of the other movie feats when I mentioned we simply cannot remove abilities off of profiles just because of proposed outliers. Yes, and there is a difference between those two situations. That is literally no different from the Archie Comics where in the Post-Genesis continuity, pretty much all of the game stuff is canon to it but not to the actual series. The problem with that that though is that the movies are very clearly tied to the universe of the Anime. I already gave links earlier that explained that Mewtwo Strikes Back was literally recounting and showing events that happened to Mewtwo. There are other nods as well from the fact Ash was able to utilize aura in Mystery of Mew, which got brought up later on in the Anime, Dawn uses the Lunar Wing she purchased in Alamos Town in the Anime, the literal Mewtwo in the Gen 5 Genesect Movie had an anime episode dedicated to it (furthered backed by the fact Virgil, the Gen 5 tourney winner, was in it), etc. It would be very foolish to suggest the two media aren't tied.

So again, Option 2 seems to be the best solution here.
 
Honestly, Arceus has more PIS than feats. He is the least deserving 2B guy on this wiki (alongside the entire Pokemon verse)
 
Inverted Tempest said:
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super haxxed hedgehogs was a one-off comment i made because their super haxxed it had nothing to do with the point at hand, solaris(as far as i can see from his weakness listed on his profile since i'm not playing sonic 06) was being attacked from different points in time thus he was being affected in a 4-D sense and so that weakened him and the red spot was being targeted by a 3-D character with 4-D power thus allowing him to be hurt again if i got something wrong please correct me since i am not watching a cutscene movie on youtube for sonic 06.

i am not saying that pikachu's BS feats in other media would make the movie unusable i am simply stating that even if the pikachu feat that appeared in the movie is much less severe due to past expectations would still contribute in some way to the fact the movie is inconsistent but fine i will concede to the pikachu point.

i really don't know why we're talking about canon now because i said ATJOL is alternative canon in my eyes the anime is also alternative canon or in normal terms the anime canon is connected to most movies so sure you're right on that front.

but while pikachu's feat is just an addition in a long list of inconsistencies arceus being incapacitated due to normal pokemon is just stupid and arceus got severely injured because of it which makes no sense due to earlier feats that appeared in the movie(arceus stomping the CT) i can't find a clip of the silver water scene btw.
 
So you agree with Low 2-C Avatar keys for the Creation Trio?

How will Darkrai's key be changed?
 
It would have to be Low Multiversal most likely given the original feat of how Palkia and Dialga were silmultaneously destroying and making a new universe from the Anime and Darkrai merged two universes in Pokepark. Either Low Multiversal or Universal+, likely Low Multiversal.
 
Darkrai and those scaling to him would be "At least Low 2-C (via scaling to Avatar Dialga/Palkia), likely 2-C (via his own feat)", if not just 2-C, although that last one seems unlikely since Darkrai clearly being above Avatar Dialga/Palkia when he was losing to them is weird.
 
This is Darkrai's current AP:

Low Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level (Fought against a corrupted Dialga and a bloodlusted Palkia, albeit they were more focused on each other than him. Also planned to merge two worlds in Poképark)

You tell me if that's still 2-C, since I know they were some revisions about fusing universes.
 
Okay, and what does this do for the verse?

Also, 2-C sounds the best way to go about it because Dialga and Palkia still have their own feat for it to be supported. They should be "At Least Low 2-C" at worse considering even Primal Dialga still has Low 2-C feats and that's a very weakened and corrupted version of Dialga IIRC, meaning normal Dialga would be massively above that and the others would scale like the Lunar Duo, other CT Members, the Lake Trio, and that one Lucario from the Manga as well.
 
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