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4-A Zelda (without Majora this time)
- Thread starter TriforcePower1
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Add the The Champion of Cyrodiil to that list.Milly Rocking Bandit said:
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Well the Vaati feat was addressed and retconned numerous times before, but the Wind Fish feat looks legit; the remake could provide more details, but it still looks good from a glance either way. And yeah, 4-A does seem to be a popular tier among a lot of Nintendo and Classic video game characters. Also agree that only Complete Triforce Ganon, ALttP Link, and Composite Link should scale from Wind Fish.
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@Ant I've already asked Azathoth to comment here.
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Was gonna address Vaati, but I guess that's already been covered.
I'm not really sure that this is remotely enough to suggest 4-A for the Wind Fish. Koholint is an island, and is constantly portrayed as such. I would not bet on the Wind Fish having randomly also created several light years of space and multiple real stars just because we see some glowing dots in the background at the very end of the game. It's not as if Koholint is supposed to be a single location within this world, as it is the world itself.This seems far too vague for my taste, especially considering a remake of this game comes out soon, anyway.
Edit: Forgot that we're explicitly shown the island itself disappearing, as well.
I'm not really sure that this is remotely enough to suggest 4-A for the Wind Fish. Koholint is an island, and is constantly portrayed as such. I would not bet on the Wind Fish having randomly also created several light years of space and multiple real stars just because we see some glowing dots in the background at the very end of the game. It's not as if Koholint is supposed to be a single location within this world, as it is the world itself.This seems far too vague for my taste, especially considering a remake of this game comes out soon, anyway.
Edit: Forgot that we're explicitly shown the island itself disappearing, as well.
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@Azathoth
But it's literally stated that he created the sky...? I get what you're saying, but Koholint is just an Island INSIDE the dream, it's not the dream itself. Obviously we focus nearly exclusively on Koholint because it's the island where the events take place. And how are those glowing dots not stars exactly?
But it's literally stated that he created the sky...? I get what you're saying, but Koholint is just an Island INSIDE the dream, it's not the dream itself. Obviously we focus nearly exclusively on Koholint because it's the island where the events take place. And how are those glowing dots not stars exactly?
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@Triforce
Because "sky" =/= "stars", nor does it automatically mean what we see in the background are real stars in a realm that's supposed to be an illusory island, and as pointed out, Koholint island vanishes in the same scene while this space does not (Link is expelled from it).
This is a pretty vague thing to base a 4-A upgrade on, which is why I suggested waiting to see if the remake actually cleared anything up. Right now this is like "assumed supporting feat at best" territory, and that would be assuming a verse with several other accepted feats of a similar level.
Because "sky" =/= "stars", nor does it automatically mean what we see in the background are real stars in a realm that's supposed to be an illusory island, and as pointed out, Koholint island vanishes in the same scene while this space does not (Link is expelled from it).
This is a pretty vague thing to base a 4-A upgrade on, which is why I suggested waiting to see if the remake actually cleared anything up. Right now this is like "assumed supporting feat at best" territory, and that would be assuming a verse with several other accepted feats of a similar level.
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>An illusory Island
That's a mistranslation of NoA, I've posted in the OP that that the only thing stating that the world is an "illusion" doesn't state that in Japanese. There's not a single statement about the world being an illusion in Japanese.
And the rest of the world not disappearing at the same time doesn't support it being an illusion. If anything, it contradicts it, as an illusion would fade away before mass. The dream was just starting to get destroyed, and the first thing it got destroyed was the Island because the Wind Fish was there and started to destroy it from there.
That's a mistranslation of NoA, I've posted in the OP that that the only thing stating that the world is an "illusion" doesn't state that in Japanese. There's not a single statement about the world being an illusion in Japanese.
And the rest of the world not disappearing at the same time doesn't support it being an illusion. If anything, it contradicts it, as an illusion would fade away before mass. The dream was just starting to get destroyed, and the first thing it got destroyed was the Island because the Wind Fish was there and started to destroy it from there.
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The point of me using "illusory island" is not "Koholint is not real", it's that "Koholint is an island".
Is there anything to support this beyond being a possibility/headcanon? Because we straight up see Koholint (which even though it's been years, I'm 99% certain Link was still on) disappear, and then he's ejected from the area where he talked to the Wind Fish. Again, this is extremely vague stuff to base a 4-A rating on when the pocket realm being used to justify the rating is repeatedly referred to as consisting of an island.
If anything, the remake might give you more support for something that would realistically be hard to push for, right now.
Is there anything to support this beyond being a possibility/headcanon? Because we straight up see Koholint (which even though it's been years, I'm 99% certain Link was still on) disappear, and then he's ejected from the area where he talked to the Wind Fish. Again, this is extremely vague stuff to base a 4-A rating on when the pocket realm being used to justify the rating is repeatedly referred to as consisting of an island.
If anything, the remake might give you more support for something that would realistically be hard to push for, right now.
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Oh, yeah, I've never said Koholint isn't the Island. I'm saying that Koholint isn't the only thing inside the Wind Fish's dream.
? The starry sky is inside the dream, and the dream was created by the Wind Fish. It's basically literally stated that he created a dream world with a starry sky.
If you want we can continue this on Discord.
? The starry sky is inside the dream, and the dream was created by the Wind Fish. It's basically literally stated that he created a dream world with a starry sky.
If you want we can continue this on Discord.
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What I'm asking is "why should we assume this random area is a real starry sky of realistic size?". It's such a vague, random thing, and we straight up see Koholint (the island) vanish in-game. Not to mention, this is all happening within the Wind Fish's egg, which makes equating this to "real starry sky" even more questionable.
This is a very shaky thing to base an upgrade off of, especially when, as already pointed out, the game is getting a remake that will likely make things much clearer.
Upgrading everyone who uses the full Triforce based on "in Link's Awakening, it looks like there were some stars in the background of the Wind Fish's egg on Koholint Island" just seems very, very shaky to me.
This is a very shaky thing to base an upgrade off of, especially when, as already pointed out, the game is getting a remake that will likely make things much clearer.
Upgrading everyone who uses the full Triforce based on "in Link's Awakening, it looks like there were some stars in the background of the Wind Fish's egg on Koholint Island" just seems very, very shaky to me.
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I honestly am starting to feel the dimension creating is getting a bit too generous to achieve the 4-A tier >_>, that or we can be too lenient in applying it, especially since space-ish backgrounds for final battles is kinda a by the book stylistic way to make a grandiose setting, so VG characters enter the tier almost too easily, regardless of what they displayed before.
Zelda though at least has reality warping, characters in 4-B and 2-C goddesses to make sense of it.
@Triforce: The remake could still be useful as further evidence. Namely, even if the events don't change, there's still the potential new cutscenes that may show the creation or destruction in much better dramatic detail. The ending will most likely be animated, so holding out for it may be worth it.
And when FF7 Remake comes in 2051 for the Nintendo Magnaforce Sephiroth will use the UberNova which destroys the universe and will be deemed an outlier. And Cloud and co will go to 5-A
Zelda though at least has reality warping, characters in 4-B and 2-C goddesses to make sense of it.
@Triforce: The remake could still be useful as further evidence. Namely, even if the events don't change, there's still the potential new cutscenes that may show the creation or destruction in much better dramatic detail. The ending will most likely be animated, so holding out for it may be worth it.
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Probably best to wait for Link's Awakening Remake, we'll probably have new evidence in that.
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I still hold up that when the Deam Fish awakens or dreams we see in detail the sky being created or warped or something similar, I think there's that chance.
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Couldn't you say this for literally any parallel dimension with a starry sky?Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
That it is just a cinematic thing and not indicative of the characters' tier?
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I agree with Azzy, and kinda want him to take a look to all the others 4-A dudes.
In all seriousness, can we consider write his standards and points somewhere? I know I always propose similar things but, think about it, who else would have come up with his reasonable points? Not a lot of users, no? Everyone should have access to them.
In all seriousness, can we consider write his standards and points somewhere? I know I always propose similar things but, think about it, who else would have come up with his reasonable points? Not a lot of users, no? Everyone should have access to them.
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While Az does have a point, Warren does make a point in the second sentence: I think the starry space used to hand over 4-A spots is getting too lenient in some cases, and doesn't seem to be a thought whether if it's an outlier or inconsistency either, or how well the story explains beyond being aesthetic change.
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If a starry sky background is described as a created quantum space, then it is legit. That's the detail that outright confirms 4-A Castlevania is solid. But I guess I'll have to agree to wait for the remake to come out; maybe their might be more elaborate on the Wind Fish's dream.
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Yeah I think I'm with Azathoth here.
Dust_Collector
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Yeah Azathoth makes sense.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
By the way, if people want to put a hold on this waiting for the remake, I'm fine with that, too.
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I suggest waiting for the remake.
Dust_Collector
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Yeah let's just wait and see if the remake adds anything that could justify an upgrade.
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Inb4 it reveals the entire dream world is the size of a pebble and that we've been shrunk down.
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So should I close the thread till the remake comes out?
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Fine for meDarkDragonMedeus said:
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Okay
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