One Piece: Cross-Verse Logia Reaction Intan Issue and Ability Addition

[KingTempest]

Logia Intangibility Issue​

One Piece

For detailed information about this series from the One Piece Wiki you can click here. One Piece is the world's most popular manga series of all time.[1] It is published in Shonen Jump and is written and drawn by Eiichiro Oda. It is an Action Adventure story about Monkey D. Luffy, a pirate who...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Regarding versus match-ups: For cross-verse matchup battles, logia Devil Fruit users are susceptible to attacks that are capable of catching them off guard, bypassing their regeneration, countering their elemental intangibility (ex: fire melting ice) or directly attacking the soul. Verse equalization does not grant an opponent from another verse the ability to utilize haki against a logia user. It was discussed here.

Where is it ever stated or shown that logias don't automatically transform? And where is it stated that it's an on guard concept?
The only time this is hinted to is when Luffy rocketed into Smoker, but that's a clear gag moment.

Sabo said that he kept dodging by accident even though he didn't need to, shown by the fact that he kept dodging, and while he was tagged he kept automatically transforming.
Crocodile got his head sliced while off guard and transformed.
Smoker was cut in half off guard and transformed.
Ace was REPEATEDLY attacked and kept transforming.
Enel FELL ASLEEP and was transforming while asleep to dodge Kamakiri's attacks.
Kizaru was visibly off guard and transformed naturally.

Even when Smoker was knowingly off guard, he was surprised someone could tag him. If it was a reaction based thing, he wouldn't be surprised.

Also, Rayleigh doesn't bring up "blitzing a logia" when he talks about how to negate their abilities.

The apparent narrative of "oh they can transform but they need to be on guard" is unfounded, headcanon, and contradicted time and time again. It needs to be removed.

Trafalgar Law Mes Addition​

Trafalgar Law should get Power Nullification.

When he pushes out the hearts of logias, they lose their logia ability in their heart to where anybody can interact with their heart, even non haki users like Caesar and Bege.

Haki Resistance​

Haki should get resistance to Power Nullification.

Although Devil Fruit abilities are nullified when the limbs are disconnected (from above), Haki isn't, and Kin'emon can use Haki to sense presences while disconnected from others.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Same old same old, good thread and I agree.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The apparent narrative of "oh they can transform but they need to be on guard" is unfounded, headcanon, and contradicted time and time again. It needs to be removed.

Haki should get resistance to Power Nullification.

I agree

Trafalgar Law should get Power Nullification.

Think neutral?

 

[Nierre]

Neutral on the Logia Intang Issue point:

To me it looks like they can "turn on" their intangibility and still not need to be on guard/focused because it's already on.

In Sabo's case, he doesn't even know how to control it, so it's very possible that he turns it on unconsciously cause he doesn't understand how to use a logia fruit.

Crocodile, Smoker, Ace, and Enel were all in a war/fight so it would make sense for them to keep their logia intangibility on even if they're not on guard, because that would be very dangerous "turning it off".

Hopefully that made sense.... anywho-

For Law's Mes addition:

I agree but I think it should be Limited. Has anyone who's had their hearts taken been unable to use ANY abilities? Or is it just intangibility that gets negated

For Haki Resistance:

Couldn't it just be that Mes only affects devil fruit abilities and not Haki? It doesn't really seem like a Haki thing but more of Law's DF "weakness" if you will.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

"intangibility negation" sounds better

I agree

 

[KingTempest]

Neutral on the Logia Intang Issue point:

To me it looks like they can "turn on" their intangibility and still not need to be on guard/focused because it's already on.

It doesn't look like so. Their intangibility is just them turning on their element. If they just turned it on, then they would just transform into their element all the time.

In Sabo's case, he doesn't even know how to control it, so it's very possible that he turns it on unconsciously cause he doesn't understand how to use a logia fruit.

Crocodile, Smoker, Ace, and Enel were all in a war/fight so it would make sense for them to keep their logia intangibility on even if they're not on guard, because that would be very dangerous "turning it off".

Enel's prideful as hell. He flat out said this.

Crocodile and Vivi's confrontation disagrees.
Smoker, I guess.

Adding Kizaru's example to the OP.

Hopefully that made sense.... anywho-

Made sense, just don't agree wholly

For Law's Mes addition:

I agree but I think it should be Limited. Has anyone who's had their hearts taken been unable to use ANY abilities? Or is it just intangibility that gets negated

It's not like that. It's that whatever portion is taken out can't use abilities.
Monet's heart was out the entire arc and she could use her powers fine, but her heart couldn't be transformed.

For Haki Resistance:

Couldn't it just be that Mes only affects devil fruit abilities and not Haki? It doesn't really seem like a Haki thing but more of Law's DF "weakness" if you will.

Doesn't look like so

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's not like that. It's that whatever portion is taken out can't use abilities.
Monet's heart was out the entire arc and she could use her powers fine, but her heart couldn't be transformed.

Oh you mean only the heart? Then I agree

 

[Eminiteable]

OP makes sense to me, I agree.

 

[KingTempest]

"intangibility negation" sounds better

I agree

This is another debate in itself.

It seems like whatever part Law disconnects just stops being a part of their body, and new limbs become the true parts.
Like Monet, who got her limbs added by Law, could even transform her newly added limbs to her body.

Seems like it just completely disables whatever abilities are attached to the heart (which logias are). Personally I think power null is valid

 

[Nierre]

It's not like that. It's that whatever portion is taken out can't use abilities.
Monet's heart was out the entire arc and she could use her powers fine, but her heart couldn't be transformed.

K then I agree

Doesn't look like so

Then I agree with this too

If they just turned it on, then they would just transform into their element all the time.

Well wouldn't they only transform into their element if they're in contact with something that tries to interact with them? Or if they're trying to travel?

Enel's prideful as hell. He flat out said this.

Well the point is that he's a logia, he cannot get hit because he is one. That's why he's so prideful and that's why he did that. Because he cannot get hit by them.

Crocodile and Vivi's confrontation disagrees.

Well no, because he actually sees her running up to her, which is ample enough time to turn on his intangibility.

Adding Kizaru's example to the OP.

Apoo imo is definitely an exception seeing how he was even able to hurt Luffy despite him being a rubber man

Made sense, just don't agree wholly

Alright thanks

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Personally I think power null is valid

I mean, "intangibility negation" is power null

But with a better name

Law has not shown nullifying other powers as far I can remember

 

[KingTempest]

K then I agree

Then I agree with this too

Well wouldn't they only transform into their element if they're in contact with something that tries to interact with them? Or if they're trying to travel?

No.

The basics of Logia abilities is transforming into your element. That's how they do anything. They transform into their element and multiply.
Their intangibility is just a subset of that.

Their intangibility is just automatic transformation.
When they attack, they transform then create more of their element.
Their intangibility is the same principle, except automatic

Well the point is that he's a logia, he cannot get hit because he is one. That's why he's so prideful and that's why he did that. Because he cannot get hit by them.

Meh, I guess

Well no, because he actually sees her running up to her, which is ample enough time to turn on his intangibility.

Forgot about that (saw the imgur file from someone else)

Apoo imo is definitely an exception seeing how he was even able to hurt Luffy despite him being a rubber man

This would be the blunt stuff, but the fact that he cut his hand off says a lot

Alright thanks

np

 

[KingTempest]

Adding Rayleigh failing to include blitzing a logia as one of the methods in harming them to the OP.

I mean, "intangibility negation" is power null

But with a better name

I mean, I guess, but (read below)

Law has not shown nullifying other powers as far I can remember

Ehhhhhhhhhhh.

Their intangibility is just them transforming (like they do with attacks), which is why I don't know if it's just intan negation since it flat out shuts down their entire logia moveset when it comes to their heart.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No where does it say or even talk about logia needing to activate their fruit... In a sbs, oda even says it's hard for crocodile to shower because he hardens I think

 

[PsychoWarper]

Oh you mean only the heart? Then I agree

Shouldn't your quote be 1/3 God, 1/3 Monkey and 1/3 Human?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Shouldn't your quote be 1/3 God, Monkey and Human?

No... Just understand

 

[KingTempest]

In a sbs, oda even says it's hard for crocodile to shower because he hardens I think

Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower. But it's not like there are enemies around when you take a shower, so I'd bet he would take them even with his powers being blocked. Don't you think? ---And to answer your final question, about myself bathing. As it happens, I do bathe. Twice! In a year!

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

As it happens, I do bathe. Twice! In a year!

True!!!! Same

 

[Nierre]

The basics of Logia abilities is transforming into your element. That's how they do anything. They transform into their element and multiply.
Their intangibility is just a subset of that.

How is it a subset? Transforming into your element IS your intangibility is it not? Just as shooting out your element is something you can do due to being a logia, turning into your element is something you can do due to being a logia. It isn't a subset. At least, I'm not seeing how it is based on what you're saying.

Adding Rayleigh failing to include blitzing a logia as one of the methods in harming them to the OP.

Because the point of the training isn't to teach Luffy how to blitz a logia, but instead teach him haki. He's not training Luffy JUST to fight logias, but instead to survive in the New World, Logias just happened to be an example that was brought up.

Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower. But it's not like there are enemies around when you take a shower, so I'd bet he would take them even with his powers being blocked. Don't you think? ---And to answer your final question, about myself bathing. As it happens, I do bathe. Twice! In a year!

This doesn't prove that it's automatic. Oda's saying that it yes, his abilities are ineffective due to water being his weakness. REGARDLESS of whether or not Croc attempts to use his abilities or not, wouldn't matter because he has no reason to use his abilities in the first place. He's there to take a shower not to fight. So Croc would take a shower even with his powers were blocked.

 

[KingTempest]

How is it a subset? Transforming into your element IS your intangibility is it not? Just as shooting out your element is something you can do due to being a logia, turning into your element is something you can do due to being a logia. It isn't a subset. At least, I'm not seeing how it is based on what you're saying.

transforming into the element is a subset of the entire logia prowess.

The logia ability in general is to turn into an element. They turn into an element which allows them to create more (specifically Ace who Oda confirms works like that), move through things that their element moves through (like Enel), or to ignore physical blows (all logias).

Negating the intangibility is negating literally every logia power, because the intangibility is rooted into the basic logia power

Because the point of the training isn't to teach Luffy how to blitz a logia, but instead teach him haki. He's not training Luffy JUST to fight logias, but instead to survive in the New World, Logias just happened to be an example that was brought up.

He says

When facing a devil fruit user, other than taking advantage of their individual weaknesses, this "armament haki" is the sole method of effectively combating their abilities...!!

Which means that outside of specific weaknesses (like the elemental stuff) it's the only way to fight them.
Being super fast and blitzing them isn't one of them if the one above is the only way

 

[XDragnoir]

Only thing i disagree is the resistance addition to haki, Kin wasn't sliced by Mes iirc so his haki wouldn't even be power nulled in the first place.


Also, side question regarding the Logia intangibility thing, wasn't it a specific trait of Enel that he had trained his Kenbu to the point he would instantly turn into lightning to avoid any attacks?

 

[KingTempest]

Only thing i disagree is the resistance addition to haki, Kin wasn't sliced by Mes iirc so his haki wouldn't even be power nulled in the first place.

Pain. Alright then

Also, side question regarding the Logia intangibility thing, wasn't it a specific trait of Enel that he had trained his Kenbu to the point he would instantly turn into lightning to avoid any attacks?

Nah, this isn't stated. His only thing that Kenbun adds to his DF is that he can sense electromagnetic waves

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I swear... The opposing arguments are soo headcanon, like what?

It's like saying, it's hard for crocodile to shower because he want to get used to being a Logia or something like that

 

[Nierre]

Which means that outside of specific weaknesses (like the elemental stuff) it's the only way to fight them.
Being super fast and blitzing them isn't one of them if the one above is the only way

He says "A Devil Fruit user" NOT "A Logia"

transforming into the element is a subset of the entire logia prowess.

The logia ability in general is to turn into an element

What's the difference between transforming into an element and turning into one.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower. But it's not like there are enemies around when you take a shower, so I'd bet he would take them even with his powers being blocked. Don't you think?

THIS IS LITERALLY CONFIRMING THAT IT'S ALWAYS ACTIVE AND HE CANT TURN OFF OR ON HIS LOGIA...

 

[KingTempest]

He says "A Devil Fruit user" NOT "A Logia"

this stretches out to them as well, since it says the only way, and Luffy brings up logias that he'd be able to touch

What's the difference between transforming into an element and turning into one.

there is none

 

[Nierre]

this stretches out to them as well, since it says the only way, and Luffy brings up logias that he'd be able to touch

Right. Rayleigh didn't mention Logias he was saying in general. You can't bypass a paramecia or zoans fruit by blitzing them, which is why he didn't mention speed, he's talking about haki cause that's the whole point of the convo to begin with. Luffy's the one who brought up Logias, because logias are the only fruit users he has issues with.

there is none

I might be confusing myself now.

So how can the subset of a fruit also be the general prowess of a fruit?

 

[Jibz]

Trafalgar Law should get Power Nullification.

When he pushes out the hearts of logias, they lose their logia ability in their heart to where anybody can interact with their heart, even non haki users like Caesar and Bege.

I always assumed Law had haki imbued via the box that keeps it susceptible to being touched by non haki users, as it is tangible at all times. It makes little sense to me that it'd powernull Logia's without that being mentioned anywhere.

 

[KingTempest]

Right. Rayleigh didn't mention Logias he was saying in general. You can't bypass a paramecia or zoans fruit by blitzing them, which is why he didn't mention speed, he's talking about haki cause that's the whole point of the convo to begin with. Luffy's the one who brought up Logias, because logias are the only fruit users he has issues with.

He's bringing up devil fruits with weaknesses.
If there was another weakness, he would bring it up, but he didn't

I might be confusing myself now.

You definitely are

So how can the subset of a fruit also be the general prowess of a fruit?

The general prowess is transforming into an element.
The subset is "intangibility", as it uses that principle of transforming to ignore physical attacks.

I always assumed Law had haki imbued via the box that keeps it susceptible to being touched by non haki users, as it is tangible at all times. It makes little sense to me that it'd powernull Logia's without that being mentioned anywhere.

Law imbuing haki into a box and it being maintained does not make logical sense, because he would have to keep imbuing haki into it, which he does not do

 

[Nierre]

TBH I think I'm confusing myself the more I talk about this so I think I'll just concede...

 

[Nierre]

You definitely are

yeah

ill concede

 

[Jibz]

Law imbuing haki into a box and it being maintained does not make logical sense, because he would have to keep imbuing haki into it, which he does not do

Yeah in hindsight the notion makes little sense. Though im iffy on it, ill remain neutral for now.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Sounds good to me. I agree with the OP.

 

[Nierre]

ill still stand neutral on the intang point but everything else ill agree on i guess

 

[Duedate8898]

I agree with the Logia bit, but I don't agree with powernull with Law's Devil Fruit.

It seems more fitting to give Law limited powernul if anything since this could also just be a mechanic of the interaction between Room and logia users. There isn't really anything that elaborates on why the hearts are tangible separate from the body or why things added onto a body are treated like they're normally a part of the body but I think an upgrade like this should have more support in-text before adding it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So your arguing they can activate it whenever regardless if they aren't paying attention?

 

[Duedate8898]

So your arguing they can activate it whenever regardless if they aren't paying attention?

I always figured it was a passive thing since for the most part sneak attacks aren't really treated as a valid means to strike Logia users.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree with the Logia bit, but I don't agree with powernull with Law's Devil Fruit.

It seems more fitting to give Law limited powernul if anything since this could also just be a mechanic of the interaction between Room and logia users. There isn't really anything that elaborates on why the hearts are tangible separate from the body or why things added onto a body are treated like they're normally a part of the body but I think an upgrade like this should have more support in-text before adding it.

its very weird

they have a link to it but they don't have access to certain abilities from what we see
Law attached horse legs to them and created a bunch of centaurs, same with Monet and bird parts, made her a harpy.
Stabbing the disconnected heart kills the victim and squeezing the heart badly hurts the victim.

But adding a limb connects them to a devil fruit and subtracting one disconnects it. Kin'emon can use his DF with only his head. Monet can't protect her heart from death.
Disconnecting a limb doesn't stop said limb from feeling pain, and they can also be weakened from the underwater DF weakness if a part of their limb is in water, can also cough blood if one limb is wounded.

So your arguing they can activate it whenever regardless if they aren't paying attention?

Yeah

 

[SnookB]

So your arguing they can activate it whenever regardless if they aren't paying attention?

It's just passive, it seems. Catching a logia off guard doesn't turn off their intangibility since they don't actively have it on to begin with.

 

[SnookB]

Passive logia intangibility is straight forward and should've always been a thing.

The one I'm slightly iffy about is Law's powernul. I think the Ace LN clarifies that you can use your haki in tandem with your df, right? Maybe Law just uses it with his DF when facing logias? That's why their elemental intangibility is turned off when they're within his DF's borders (the squares for the hearts, and room altogether) because it's less powernul and more Haki+DF specifically for logia-countering.

The haki resistance itself is more or less> Kin isn't "dead" and his body continues to be alive while carrying Kin's consciousness across his parts, so he can use said consciousness/Will to use his haki all the same.
It might be an Ope-Ope specific thing, but I'm not sure. I'll remain neutral on that for now.