Arceus, and the Crown of Lies

[Udlmaster]

I've actually been looking into some of the stories for Pokemon and actually do think that Arceus may not be the strongest pokemon there is.

Firstly, there was the case where Arceus literally got negged along with all other Pokemon on the Planet, along with big names like Reshiram and Zekrom and others.

And this isn't a case of "Well, maybe they don't mean Arceus when they say "All"" but they literally show Arceus along with Mega Mewtwo X.

By none other than Yveltol.

Now, you might say "Well, we don't see Arceus getting negged, maybe they just left Arceus alone.", however, they later show Arceus getting hit by an blast that turns them to stone.

This Dark Matter boss directly scales back to Yveltol, as he was able to damage him.

Being turned to Stone actually Erases your spirit to the Voidlands, stated more clearly here, or in the Japanese version, to make my point very clear: "World of Nothingness".

Dark Matter himself says that he will turn all Life "To the Void".

So, yeah, it seems that Original Soul was actually affected due to how the Hax works.

So, low key, Arceus doesn't really seem like they're the strongest Pokemon, and we've really known that for a long time, for a while, Gamefreak themselves have been claiming other Pokemon are the strongest after Arceus' release like Zamazenta recently.

 

[deonment]

Hax doesnt scale to ap and even if it did it would lead to so many pokemon getting 2-B likely 2-A that it should not be taken as legitimate

 

[Udlmaster]

Hax doesnt scale to ap and even if it did it would lead to so many pokemon getting 2-B likely 2-A that it should not be taken as legitimate

I mean, that doesn't seem like a problem with what I said, that sounds like it's a problem with how we current scale pokemon.

For example, if i posited the Germ theory, and up till that point this website was using the Miasma theory (theory that gas and smells caused illness along with spiritual effects), the reply "Well, it would change how we view illness, and so won't be accepted"

That would be absurd, right?

 

[deonment]

then how would you rather scale it cause we know arceus scales well above the ct due to being abt to create them easily

 

[Udlmaster]

then how would you rather scale it cause we know arceus scales well above the ct due to being abt to create them easily

Arceus =< Yveltol < Dark Matter

 

[Everything12]

The Pokédex, advertisements, and statements of Pokémon being the strongest this or that is rife through the franchise, but none of them has feats even close to the Creation Trio's so can be safely discarded.

The petrification is hax and does not scale to AP, thus it doesn't scale to Yveltal hurting Dark Matter (especially with Yveltal not having any feats even close to such an AP and would be an outlier if accepted)

And just because they have their Spirits, which a term more commonly associated with the Lake Trio's Souls, banished to a world of nothingness does not mean they are erased as there is no further fetas or evidence that they have a Non-Existent Physiology and would be a stretch to assume so.

 

[deonment]

and you do realize the issue with that right, it means everyone that scales to or above yvetal gets tier 2 ratings, and there is a decent chunk of pokemon do scale to or above arceus

 

[Everything12]

Despite all this talk of Pokémon being stronger then Arceus for this or that, does any Pokémon besides Arceus and the Creation Trio have any feats of Universal level besides scaling?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Me upon seeing this post

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Despite all this talk of Pokémon being stronger then Arceus for this or that, does any Pokémon besides Arceus and the Creation Trio have any feats of Universal level besides scaling?

Darkrai has his Pokepark feat, but we don't consider that canon, and Necrozma was recently upgraded to High 3-A which scales to a large number of people, but that's still Infinite 3D rather than 4D

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Inb4 new tier 2 pokemon?
Also, yes zep's youtube vid is how I feel on pokemon scaling.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

1.) Hax. This doesn't scale to AP
2.) Mystery Dungeon is considered Non-Canon
3.) Even if this scaled to AP, this one occurrence would easily be a major outlier considering how Arceus is explicitly and consistently portrayed and stated as the ultimate creator and god in the Pokemon Verse

 

[Udlmaster]

And just because they have their Spirits, which a term more commonly associated with the Lake Trio's Souls, banished to a world of nothingness does not mean they are erased as there is no further fetas or evidence that they have a Non-Existent Physiology and would be a stretch to assume so.

Actually, there is, Void Shadows are natives the the World of Nothingness and their names in Japanese is "Shadows of Nothingness" and they're enemies fought throughout the Voidlands.

Despite all this talk of Pokémon being stronger then Arceus for this or that, does any Pokémon besides Arceus and the Creation Trio have any feats of Universal level besides scaling?

Yes, Xerneas is stated to be the Embodiment of the World Tree, which is the Foundation of All Living things.

Dark Matter themselves states that he is the embodiment of Negativity throughout all Creation, with his Ultimate Goal being to throw everything back to the Void.

The Pokédex, advertisements, and statements of Pokémon being the strongest this or that is rife through the franchise, but none of them has feats even close to the Creation Trio's so can be safely discarded.

That just sounds like we're ignoring things because they don't line up with our head cannon.

The petrification is hax and does not scale to AP, thus it doesn't scale to Yveltal hurting Dark Matter (especially with Yveltal not having any feats even close to such an AP and would be an outlier if accepted)

As stated, it's Existence Erasure, with Dark Matter stating he will throw all Creation into the Void as his ultimate Goal.

 

[Udlmaster]

2.) Mystery Dungeon is considered Non-Canon

Why is it Non-canon? Can you show me Gamefreak ever stating Mystery Dungeon is non-canon?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Why is it Non-canon? Can you show me Gamefreak ever stating Mystery Dungeon is non-canon?

They never stated it was, and here on this wiki we treat it as non-canon.

 

[Udlmaster]

They never stated it was, and here on this wiki we treat it as non-canon.

That's just the definition of Headcanon then, I don't know what to say.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Mystery Dungeon is considered to be part of the greater Pokemon multiverse, but we don't use it to scale to the main profiles due to how many differences there are. If you want to change that you'd have to make an addition or separate CRT for that to happen. There's more reasoning than what Crimson stated, though.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

That's just the definition of Headcanon then, I don't know what to say.

Assuming it is canon is equally as headcanon.

 

[deonment]

As stated, it's Existence Erasure, with Dark Matter stating he will throw all Creation into the Void as his ultimate Goal.

yet in game it is portrayed as petrification, and even if it were ee it would not matter as it would still be hax and nothing else

 

[Udlmaster]

Assuming it is canon is equally as headcanon.

Not really. The argument "Prove it's not Non-canon" is a negative I don't have to prove.

Until the Burden of Proof is fulfilled, it is canon by default.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-new-approach-to-pokemon-canon.113973/

Here's the CRT, by the way

 

[Udlmaster]

yet in game it is portrayed as petrification, and even if it were ee it would not matter as it would still be hax and nothing else

That's fine, you can erase someone's soul separately from their body.

 

[Everything12]

Mystery Dungeon is at best Secondary Canon, but more likely Tertiary Canon. This has been accepted for like months (unfortunately in the middle of the move), with a recent update to further clarify.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Not really. The argument "Prove it's not Non-canon" is a negative I don't have to prove.

Until the Burden of Proof is fulfilled, it is canon by default.

Never stated to be so, treated as a side game by various media, and has a world that doesn't follow the typical rules and aspects of any other pokemon media that we see.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Regardless of PMD's canoncity, the other 2 points still stand. It's merely petrification hax, not AP, and it's a major outlier and highly inconsistent to all of Arceus' other portrayals in the verse.

 

[Udlmaster]

Mystery Dungeon is at best Secondary Canon, but more likely Tertiary Canon. This has been accepted for like months (unfortunately in the middle of the move), with a recent update to further clarify.

Why would it be either? I don't see the rules broken by MD

 

[Udlmaster]

Regardless of PMD's canoncity, the other 2 points still stand. It's merely petrification hax, not AP, and it's a major outlier and highly inconsistent to all of Arceus' other portrayals in the verse.

Outlier would imply it contradicts data observed, which would then say that Yveltol has shown inability to do X thing and that would be their limit.

But if I am a Planet buster and I destroy a rock and then a building, that doesn't mean that's my limit, it merely means that's what is capable of.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Ah yes, it totally isn't an outlier for a Pokemon who's best showing is scaling to a tier 3 character, to somehow scale above a character who casually creates and stomps the literal embodiments of time and space across the entire pokemon multiverse, which are easily tier 2.

 

[Garchomp777]

Ah yes, it totally isn't an outlier for a Pokemon who's best showing is scaling to a tier 3 character, to somehow scale above a character who casually creates and stomps the literal embodiments of time and space across the entire pokemon multiverse, which are easily tier 2.

It has no anti feats to prove it should be maxed at tier 3. Also read this

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

It has no anti feats to prove it should be maxed at tier 3. Also read this

Nor does it possess any feats that would prove above tier 3 or scale to the creation trio in the slightest.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

1.) Hax. This doesn't scale to AP
2.) Mystery Dungeon is considered Non-Canon
3.) Even if this scaled to AP, this one occurrence would easily be a major outlier considering how Arceus is explicitly and consistently portrayed and stated as the ultimate creator and god in the Pokemon Verse

Outlier to statements... let's put those aside for now... how does this scene compare to on panel feats Arceus has in the franchise?

 

[Garchomp777]

Nor does it possess any feats that would prove above tier 3 or scale to the creation trio in the slightest.

It does actually have the feats, this is the feat

 

[Garchomp777]

Also, this isn't being accepted. Try to argue it being hax and not AP. Also, I think we should add spiritual BFR to Yveltal. Thats like better than death manipulation lol

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

It does actually have the feats, this is the feat

Damaging Dark matter who only petrified Arceus through hax? That... doesn't give you AP scaling.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Hax =/= AP, they shouldn't scale and it would be a outlier.

If you have a problem with mystery dungeon being non-canon, make a crt about it, is accpeted like that and it will remain until someone changes it.

IF dark matter scales to arceus in anyway with the 2-A EE stuff, yveltal harming it would just be an ourlier.

Him being erased is also another contradiction since he literally predates souls and matter.

 

[Garchomp777]

Hax =/= AP, they shouldn't scale and it would be a outlier.

If you have a problem with mystery dungeon being non-canon, make a crt about it, is accpeted like that and it will remain until someone changes it.

IF dark matter scales to arceus in anyway with the 2-A EE stuff, yveltal harming it would just be an ourlier.

Him being erased is also another contradiction since he literally predates souls and matter.

Its not a contradiction, its called resistance negation. Yveltal has verbatim been referred to as the personification of destruction and can kill ghost types who are already dead.


Also, who here agrees that it scales to hax? It wouldn't be absurd to put dark matters hax that level. After all, we've seen other pokemon mindhax the creation trio even though they're infinitely stronger

 

[deonment]

you mean, hoopa and hoopa alone

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. Arceus has an immunity for a reason, he lacks a soul to erase, is different from resistamce negation, sure we have soulhaxxing soulless but those are rare

Killing ghosts is pretty common, it can be seem as harming or killing souls, arceus literally has no soul.

2. When did i even say the hax couldn't be on that level, i said that if he scales anyway to arceus with his hax, yvetal wouldn't scale in AP and even if it was AP, it would be a outlier.

 

[Everything12]

Outlier to statements... let's put those aside for now... how does this scene compare to on panel feats Arceus has in the franchise?

Well, it created and easily bests the Creation Trio, who besides being the embodiments of Space/Time/Anti-Matter are regularly shown throughout the series creating and destroying newly made Universes. Plus in the Arceus movie, its mere awakening caused shock waves that caused Palkia and Dialga's Universe-sized Dimensions to collide with each other.

 

[Garchomp777]

Well, it created and easily bests the Creation Trio, who besides being the embodiments of Space/Time/Anti-Matter are regularly shown throughout the series creating and destroying newly made Universes. Plus in the Arceus movie, its mere awakening caused shock waves that caused Palkia and Dialga's Universe-sized Dimensions to collide with each other.

And? Other pokemon can just be stronger in AP

1. Arceus has an immunity for a reason, he lacks a soul to erase, is different from resistamce negation, sure we have soulhaxxing soulless but those are rare

Killing ghosts is pretty common, it can be seem as harming or killing souls, arceus literally has no soul.

2. When did i even say the hax couldn't be on that level, i said that if he scales anyway to arceus with his hax, yvetal wouldn't scale in AP and even if it was AP, it would be a outlier.

Erasing the soul of things with no soul is possible in fiction. In fact yveltal petrified trees who definitely don't have souls.