11 Eyes Gods are 1-A or Higher?

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Finished my reread and made this blog. I can see this going 2 ways:

1-B​

To summarize, there exists the physical world, of which multiple sets of infinite parallel worlds exist.

Above that are 8 emanations of Aeon (eternity): Propator, Ennoia, Nous, Aletheia, Logos, Zoe, Anthripos, Ekklesia. These are higher planes which transcend each other. So on a very basic level I think these realm would be Low 1-C to 1-B. At the top of this hierarchy is the True God, and Demiurge/Kukuri is to be close to it, so Kukuri and Demiurge should be 1-B.

1-A​

God exist above/beyond in purity, immaterial and unknowable. The world of the material is a world created by the Demiurge, and it's by gnosis alone that one achieves oneness with God. Gnosis lets one into a higher Pleroma in their higher search for the perfection of God. It created the very concept of eternity, and is "omniscient and omnipotent", without any flaws/imperfections.

Kukuri/Demiurge is an observer to all reality, she can alter and restructure the entire cosmos and has the true power of the Eye of Aeon, which can create worlds that are boundless and transcendent over time.

Each Pleroma/realm has their own aeon (concept of eternity), with God existing at the very top of this hierarchy as perfection. I suppose this hinges on God making the very concept of eternity, and Kukuri transcending time.

Not too sure if it goes any higher, seeing as Aeon is defined as the fundamental concept of eternity, the lowest emanation transcends the multiverse, having it's own aeon.

This series is heavily into Gnosticism, and I know from that God is a Monad, which is tier 0, but kinda skeptical the name drop alone will propel the cast here to such high levels, especially as God is described as the top of the hierarchy, when a Monad from what little I know, isn't part of any hierarchy, but could be wrong.

Possible Rebuttals​

Honestly don't know if I should even address this, since my blog goes into a lot of details. This rebuttal would basically be that Kukuri a lower character was able to ascend to God levels (which could be 1-A if this thread passes).

Kukuri got to those levels with Ether, which is a fundamental thing in the world, not only is the multiverse made of it, even the higher realms are the same. It's also stated that the soul, which is made of Ether, can traverse the higher realms, and it's Ether Lieselotte uses to open a hole into the lower realm, which is the Underworld, Hell, Bythos etc.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

ut kinda skeptical the name drop alone will propel the cast here to such high levels, especially as God is described as the top of the hierarchy, when a Monad from what little I know, isn't part of any hierarchy, but could be wrong.

I don't think this is really a problem here since it doesnt seem to be using a hierarchy super literally (for God not the aeon stuff since it just seems to be saying he's beyond everything) . Just that the end goal of Gnostics is oneness with God.

I dunno if it's enough context for tier 0 but the idea seems to be there.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I suppose yea, is the evidence enough is the question. Supposing it is, Kukuri/Demiue would be High 1-A, or High 1-A? For being close in power to the "omnipotent" God.

Keeping my expectations low here.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I suppose yea, is the evidence enough is the question. Supposing it is, Kukuri/Demiue would be High 1-A, or High 1-A? For being close in power to the "omnipotent" God.

Keeping my expectations low here.

I dont think it's saying he's close in power to God. Just that hes as close as someone can be to God. Could be extrapolated to high 1-A+ but lol I doubt it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

2 discussions to be had, whether God truly is tier 0, and the second part is what exactly the higher realms qualify for.

God is mentioned here and there, doesn't really even show up, so I was kinda going to ignore making a profile for it if it was just 1-A, tier 0 would be a different story.

It would follow the trend of tier 0's being vague

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Honestly could be something but it doesn't seem like the verse elaborates enough on it. There's...

1) God is in a higher, immaterial planes, and likewise are the Aeons, but as the Tiering System page says, a non-physical realm being described as "higher" in nature isn't really evidence of anything, much less of 1-A.

2) The material world is described as "false," but in-context it can simply mean that it's something constructed, contrasted with the eternity of the immaterial worlds.

3) Dream world is described as "lost to time, as if transcending it" and as "boundless." The former statement isn't anything useful, since obviously "transcends" in common parlance doesn't even necessarily mean "superior to." The latter would only be useful in combination with the former, so, yeah.

4) God "created eternity." Not really a statement that receives any elaboration, so, unfortunate.

Yeah, so, neither 1-B nor 1-A and much less 0, I fear.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Finished my reread and made this blog. I can see this going 2 ways:

1-B​

To summarize, there exists the physical world, of which multiple sets of infinite parallel worlds exist.

Above that are 8 emanations of Aeon (eternity): Propator, Ennoia, Nous, Aletheia, Logos, Zoe, Anthripos, Ekklesia. These are higher planes which transcend each other. So on a very basic level I think these realm would be Low 1-C to 1-B. At the top of this hierarchy is the True God, and Demiurge/Kukuri is to be close to it, so Kukuri and Demiurge should be 1-B.

Seems straight forward.

1-A​

God exist above/beyond in purity, immaterial and unknowable. The world of the material is a world created by the Demiurge, and it's by gnosis alone that one achieves oneness with God. Gnosis lets one into a higher Pleroma in their higher search for the perfection of God. It created the very concept of eternity, and is "omniscient and omnipotent", without any flaws/imperfections.

That’s the basis for 0.

Kukuri/Demiurge is an observer to all reality, she can alter and restructure the entire cosmos and has the true power of the Eye of Aeon, which can create worlds that are boundless and transcendent over time.

Assuming God exists totally independent even from that logic and far above the true power of the Eye of the Aeon then yes this is good supplementary information.

Each Pleroma/realm has their own aeon (concept of eternity), with God existing at the very top of this hierarchy as perfection. I suppose this hinges on God making the very concept of eternity, and Kukuri transcending time.

I’m unsure if God is meant to be the apex of that hierarchy of perfection, if:

1. The hierarchy of perfection is not identical to God’s nature as he is the hierarchy itself as an independent and sole being of perfection.
2. If God does exist in a hierarchy with other beings then he’s not immutable or completely detach from any form of existence that is not his own. Which hinders the idea God gets 0.

Not too sure if it goes any higher, seeing as Aeon is defined as the fundamental concept of eternity, the lowest emanation transcends the multiverse, having its own aeon.

This series is heavily into Gnosticism, and I know from that God is a Monad, which is tier 0, but kinda skeptical the name drop alone will propel the cast here to such high levels, especially as God is described as the top of the hierarchy, when a Monad from what little I know, isn't part of any hierarchy, but could be wrong.

“Top of the hierarchy” kind of ruins this idea. Monad, or more so the One from Gnosticism is the source of all things. Pure, simple, indivisible, and intangible, though bathing in the glory of its Oneness isn’t a far stretch since Gnosticism combines lots of conception when it comes to God and stuff like negation, divine simplicity, and divine immutability. So yeah, if it’s at the top of a hierarchy that includes other beings then that’s false Monadhood.

Possible Rebuttals​

Honestly don't know if I should even address this, since my blog goes into a lot of details. This rebuttal would basically be that Kukuri a lower character was able to ascend to God levels (which could be 1-A if this thread passes).

If, by ascend you mean that God allowed it or the ascension process isn’t literal to go into God, but just become one in unity then it’s fine. However, if not then yes that’s a limiting detractor.

Kukuri got to those levels with Ether, which is a fundamental thing in the world, not only is the multiverse made of it, even the higher realms are the same. It's also stated that the soul, which is made of Ether, can traverse the higher realms, and it's Ether Lieselotte uses to open a hole into the lower realm, which is the Underworld, Hell, Bythos etc.

Interesting.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Honestly could be something but it doesn't seem like the verse elaborates enough on it. There's...

1) God is in a higher, immaterial planes, and likewise are the Aeons, but as the Tiering System page says, a non-physical realm being described as "higher" in nature isn't really evidence of anything, much less of 1-A.

2) The material world is described as "false," but in-context it can simply mean that it's something constructed, contrasted with the eternity of the immaterial worlds.

3) Dream world is described as "lost to time, as if transcending it" and as "boundless." The former statement isn't anything useful, since obviously "transcends" in common parlance doesn't even necessarily mean "superior to." The latter would only be useful in combination with the former, so, yeah.

4) God "created eternity." Not really a statement that receives any elaboration, so, unfortunate.

Yeah, so, neither 1-B nor 1-A and much less 0, I fear.

Well was worth a shot, that said if the higher realms above the multiverse have their own aeon/eternites, would have thought it would have meant something, sad.

There was some stuff about timeless and eternal, and creating duality, but thought it was kinda dubious, it was said in the context of the discussion about eternity, and how in an ancient religion a timeless and eternal god, created 2 brothers, who are like duality or something.

That would only be useful if we attribute that to God as well due to its "omnipotence", so kinda ignored it.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

As I read up on the series (having no prior knowledge) I'm slightly confused

So the Demiurge is the peak of the verse, and is the Creator of all the stuff the characters interact with.

The Eye of Aeon and Abraxas are the greatest powers in the verse, being the two things that have to come together to become the Demiurge

But the Eye of Aeon is just a fragment of the Emerald Tablet, as is the Voidstone.

And each of the Void Bearer powers, including Abraxas, are just fragments of the Voidstone.

So Demiurge > Eye of Aeon = Abraxas > Voidstone > Abraxas?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not really relevant to this thread (which seemingly is going nowhere lol), but I will answer.

Kukuri for whatever reason, was born with the power of Abraxas, this was the sealed version of Demiurge. Abraxas was literally Kukuri's soul. So when she brought out Abraxas, she was fighting with her own soul itself.

Now at the end of the series it's revealed that the high concentration of Ether was powering up Kukuri. Ayame Hill has the most Ether on Earth, sidenote, this is why Lieselottle came there from Germany, she wanted to use that abundance of Ether to open up a portal to the lower realm, which is called by many names, Bythos, Underworld, Hell etc.

Back to Kukuri, by the final events of the series, Kukuri already had enough power to do "God-like" things such as read people's minds and look into their past, she didn't yet hit God level, she was actually stopping herself from becoming a God.

After destroying all the Void Fragments, she unbounds the power within her as a Creator, and that's how we get Goddess Kukuri.

Eye of Aeon is one of the 5 fragments of the Emerald Tablet which contained the gnosis of God, one of the other fragments was the Demonic Stone which Lieselotte has. That fragment from Lieselotte was split into 6 as a result of Avarita's rainbow contract technique, it was split into 6 and sent to 6 different parallel worlds, but because Lieselotte is immortal, they didn't just disappear like normal, but survived, and found new hosts, these are the Void Fragments, that is what 6 of the main cast is called, because they possess a fragment of Lieselotte's Demonic Stone.

So to summarize Kukuri is special, basically born with God level powers, but it was nerfed, this was Abraxas, she was also intentionally stopping herself from becoming a God until the end, Void Fragments are fragments of the Demonic Stone, which is a fragment of the Emerald Tablet, and Eye of Aeon is the same as the Demonic Stone.

Honestly though Void Fragment and Demonic Fragment don't matter in terms of scaling the cosmology, the only one that does is the Eye of Aeon, because it has some sort of pocket dimension which is infinite, observes multiple set of infinite universes from all possible locations because it has an infinite number of eyes (this explains why the pocket dimension is infinite imo), and is capable of manipulating the future to draw out even the most tiny of possibility, making that future a reality.

In contrast Demonic fragment just makes the user immortal, to the point almost nothing in verse can kill them, despite the fact Lieselotte has a technique which destroys the spirit and soul of a person, and also being split and sent to 6 different parallel worlds didn't kill her, what killed Lieselotte was the Eye of Aeon.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Not really relevant to this thread (which seemingly is going nowhere lol), but I will answer.

Ahh okay. So her power doesn't actually originally come from the fragments like they thought, it was just awakened by it?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The cast all come from different parallel worlds, with the exception of Kakeru and Yuka who are from the same, what they all have in common is the Void Fragment, Lieselotte + Avarita's phantasmorgoria and rainbow contract clashing created a parallel world which basically fused all the 6 Void Fragment's parallel world together.

All that aside in Kakeru's timeline, his sister also Abraxas/Demiurge powers like Tachibana. In fear of her own power she committed seppuku. However Tachibana can't do what Satsuki Kukuri did, due to the fragment of Lieseotte, meaning Satsuki Kakeru had Abraxas/Demiurge, but no fragment

Spoiler: Kukuri Power

This means their power doesn't come from Lieselotte's fragments, but the fragment does help in making it stronger. I would also note Satsuki Kakeru was like 5 or 10 years older than Tachibana Kukuri, and yet didn't become a God, despite living in Ayame Hill her whole life, meanwhile Tachibana Kukuri, just popped into existence 5 years ago, and already had god like powers, which she had to nerf.

In short Tachibana despite having the same power, is special, and again Abraxas isn't due to the Fragment, it does help in terms of making Kukuri harder to kill, but that's about it.

I mean Kukuri used her Demiurge power to destroy the fragment in herself, and yet still had the Demiurge power and became a God, so her power clearly isn't from it

Spoiler: Kukuri Power

 

[Creaturemaster971]

What about the Eye of Aeon?

Isn't it directly said to be the only thing close to Abraxas's power or something?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I feel like this is still diverging from the original topic, which is going nowhere sadly. But I will continue to humor you.

The Eye of Aeon has nothing to do with Abraxas/Demiurge. The only sort of relation I could possible see you getting is Kukuri using her Demiurge to absorb the Eye of Aeon, and then invoking it's true power, thus becoming an observer to all reality.

You could maybe say it's the Eye, which brought her to God status, which is kind of true, but to me, it was just a part of her God status, she has other stuff separate from the eye like her divine ether powers which can reshape the whole of the cosmos. But anyway the Eye of Aeon imo is just part of what makes her a God.

It really has no relevancy to anything outside Kukuri, cause she is the only one who could invoke it's true power.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I feel like this is still diverging from the original topic, which is going nowhere sadly. But I will continue to humor you.

I'm sorry, I was just curious and I didn't understand what I read on the wiki.

I'm also considering reading the VN myself, but it'll be a while before I can

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Back on topic, while working on my revision I found this scan

I don't think this translation here is exactly accurate, since it's taking a quote directly from John Chapter 1, I think it's referencing the quote in that chapter which says "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Is this important? Eh, it's making reference to something, but it's not exactly expanding upon it (which has been the big issue here), my understanding of that Chapter is that God did not begin to exist, didn't come into being, but has always existed, is atemporal?

Does it mean anything in terms of tiering, idk.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Does it mean anything in terms of tiering, idk.

It’s saying God is the architect of Creation and that all things were made by him. To which nothing was made, if God didn’t make it. So, yes, he’s eternal and byproduct also atemporal.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We already got statements about God eternal yea, so it all fits. Almost frustrating how close the series comes to diving into God and what not, but glosses over it.

Like Yukiko is asked what exactly Aeon means, we just get bits and pieces of what she says, cause it's from the perspective of the cast who is tuning her out cause she is rambling.

Here she brings up Carl Jung, but we don't get how Jung ties into Aeon, just skipped over it, and goes into discussion about the emanations of Aeon

Considering it's talking about God being eternal before, and the emanations of Aeon/eternity after, clearly Jung has something to do with it, idk maybe his ideas about archetypes? But that's all speculation

She then goes on to talk about Aeon in other religions

She further rambles about Budda and all kinds of other stuff, but irrelevant. Anyway, hopefully this thread goes somewhere.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

We already got statements about God eternal yea, so it all fits. Almost frustrating how close the series comes to diving into God and what not, but glosses over it.

Like Yukiko is asked what exactly Aeon means, we just get bits and pieces of what she says, cause it's from the perspective of the cast who is tuning her out cause she is rambling.

Here she brings up Carl Jung, but we don't get how Jung ties into Aeon, just skipped over it, and goes into discussion about the emanations of Aeon

Considering it's talking about God being eternal before, and the emanations of Aeon/eternity after, clearly Jung has something to do with it, idk maybe his ideas about archetypes? But that's all speculation

She then goes on to talk about Aeon in other religions

She further rambles about Budda and all kinds of other stuff, but irrelevant. Anyway, hopefully this thread goes somewhere.

This sucks that it's teetering on the precipice to unlock something great for the verse, but the vagueness is ultimately dooming any chances of it being high tiered. Could it be ? Absolutely, especially with the implication that God is akin to the Gnostic depiction, I definitely see it, but it just doesn't go into enough detail sadly.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Okay I really do need to read this

So far authors being just vague enough to deny bigger tiers and more hax tends to happen in a lot of peak fiction I like