1-A in B10 i guess?

[Simsalamim]

I haven't been following VSBw for long, but I'd like to try showing 1-A. Don't judge me too harshly, this is my first thread.

For first - episode "Game Over"
Here
When the pause button is pressed in the video game world, oddly enough, the video game world freezes, shown twice—from the perspective of a being outside the game and from the perspective of beings inside the game. This suggests that time in the fictional world isn't fixed to real-world time. The pop-up Trivia further suggests that if Max were to reset the game world, it would be like a reset of existence for Ben and Gwen, suggesting that the fictional world has its own cosmology, an additional argument for this is that for Ishiyama his world is real, he did not know that it was in videogame. Kenko also referred to the real world as "another domain." In the video game itself, there's space with stars where the characters ascended, and Max needed to create an avatar to interact with the characters.

Next episode "Perfect Day"

Here

In Ben's dream, what exists inside the mind—other dimensions, like the null void, can be realized. Space, at least the distance from the Earth to the sun, exists there, too. And also, according to the series, the time of day in the dream changes, while in the real world it is still daytime, this means that in the dream time is also not fixed with the time of the real world.

Next episode - night of living nightmare


According to the plot, Albedo enters a dream within a dream, believing he was originally in Ben's dream. Magic can also be used within dreams. That is, from their own perspective, dreams are multi-series cosmological structures.

Now about "mind"

The King placed his mind into the body of Doctor Victor, And after many seasons, Zskyar, having become intangible, penetrated the mindspace, from this we conclude that the mind, and therefore its derivative in the form of dreams, do not have any physical value.

Suggestion: Raise the level of characters and cosmologies to 1-A and above (due to the possibility of fictional worlds within fictional worlds)

Agree:
Neutral:I
Disagree: @Hellformer @Hasty12345

 

[Hellformer]

Man this is not even remotely close to 1-A

 

[Hasty12345]

disagree FRA

 

[Simsalamim]

Man this is not even remotely close to 1-A

Can you please explain? Isn't R>f above cosmology enought?

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

1) This isn't even enough for R>F
2) Even if it was R>F, it would have been downwards hirarchy with baseline reality being at top of it (so baseline reality should have stayed where it was and lower realities were going to be Tier 11-C)

 

[Simsalamim]

1) This isn't even enough for R>F
2) Even if it was R>F, it would have been downwards hirarchy with baseline reality being at top of it (so baseline reality should have stayed where it was and lower realities were going to be Tier 11-C)

1) Why isn't enought?
2) You downgrade through a reference point, but this doesn't stop the internal structuring of the fictional world from existing relative to itself. The very existence of magic and null voids in fictional worlds should refute the 11-C argument.

 

[SweetDao]

ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING makes sense.

 

[Lort15]

Yeah this isn't 1-A

 

[Simsalamim]

Yeah this isn't 1-A

Say why?

 

[Lort15]

Say why?

Basically the reason of Abstract King and from my knowledge you need some qualititive superior, tiers above low 1-A needs that feel free to ask others i just can't see 1-A here

 

[Simsalamim]

Basically the reason of Abstract King and from my knowledge you need some qualititive superior, tiers above low 1-A needs that feel free to ask others i just can't see 1-A here

To penetrate the mindspace, Zesker had to become intangible, that is, literally nothing from the physical point of view of three-dimensional reality. Dreams exist inside the mindspace, from this the result arises - fictional worlds and their space-time are literally nothing from the perspective of the layer above.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Zesker had to become intangible

Still you can't jump from two realities with a qualitative jump with just "iNtAnGaBiLiTy". Even you can't do this to Higher Dimensional planes, let alone Qualitatively superior realms. And Omnitrix's simulated world (a seperate universe, not a Qualitatively inferior one) already is akin to Sumo slammers world while other dream worlds not just have the problem of accessibility I've mentioned above, but also are below baseline reality.

You downgrade through a reference point, but this doesn't stop the internal structuring of the fictional world from existing relative to itself. The very existence of magic and null voids in fictional worlds should refute the 11-C argument.

How Qualitatively inferior versions of Null Void and magic can't exist?
And "You downgrade through a reference point" and "but this doesn't stop internal structuring of the fictional world from existing relative to itself" are two statment contradicting themselves and prior disproves later.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Why I am getting more likes in "refuting 1-A Ben 10" than "Upgrading Ben 10 to Low 1-A" ?

 

[Lort15]

Why I am getting more likes in "refuting 1-A Ben 10" than "Upgrading Ben 10 to Low 1-A" ?

 

[Arkenis]

utter woke nonsense

 

[Qawsedf234]

aven't been following VSBw for long, but I'd like to try showing 1-A. Don't judge me too harshly, this is my first thread.

So overall this isn't 1-A. The rest of the users however, have no properly explained why its not 1-A for a newer user. Most of the explanations will come from the FAQ page about 1-A:

Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?​

A: The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

Secondly, a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Furthermore, since the "lack of continuity" that exists between the higher level and the lower one is structural, and not causal, there can potentially be more unorthodox ways of bypassing the 1-A barrier. For example: Things that don't have anything to do with raw power, but just a general transfer/exposure of information between one level and another. Another example could be cosmologies where a higher level originates from the thoughts/beliefs/etc of inhabitants of a lower level; while these thoughts literally originating within the lower reality and then somehow "floating away" to form a higher one would be a disqualifier, no anti-feat is present if the verse has it so these operations simply already exist in a higher reality.

On the matter of power sources: That would depend on the nature of the power source itself. For example, a common trope in fiction is power sources that, so to speak, are "for the taking," meaning they are naturally self-diffusive and don't offer any resistance whatsoever to being tapped into, as being utilized in such a way is in their nature. Drawing power from such sources is obviously not actually an anti-feat for them being 1-A, especially so if they are depicted as naturally connected to, and united with, the beings that tap into them.

However, if the "power source" in question consists in a lower character literally overwhelming a would-be 1-A object with their own abilities and forcibly absorbing it into themselves, then that constitutes an anti-feat, unless the occasion falls under the stipulations above.

Note, also, the pertinence of Plot-Induced Stupidity and similar factors when weighing out whether certain showings are valid disqualifiers. Overall, it depends entirely on a combination of the nature of the showings themselves, their importance, and the verse's general insistence on the transcendence of the realm being interacted with. Individual analysis is to be employed for each particular case.

So go over your post

When the pause button is pressed in the video game world, oddly enough, the video game world freezes, shown twice—from the perspective of a being outside the game and from the perspective of beings inside the game. This suggests that time in the fictional world isn't fixed to real-world time. The pop-up Trivia further suggests that if Max were to reset the game world, it would be like a reset of existence for Ben and Gwen, suggesting that the fictional world has its own cosmology, an additional argument for this is that for Ishiyama his world is real, he did not know that it was in videogame. Kenko also referred to the real world as "another domain." In the video game itself, there's space with stars where the characters ascended, and Max needed to create an avatar to interact with the characters.

The first issue here is that these are not avatars, but Ben and Gwen fully. To quote the Ben 10 Wiki's transcript of the episode:

Ben then transforms into Upgrade and merges with the computer, reducing Gwen's score to 0.

Gwen: Ben Tennyson, you are such a cheater! You're gonna get yours one of these days.

Max covers his ears as Gwen yells, and as Gwen shakes the laptop, lightning hits the Rustbucket's satellite dish, travels through the electrical outlet and suddenly Gwen and Upgrade are gone.

Max: (turning over) Oh, finally. A little peace and quiet.

Gwen: That big lightning flash must have zapped Upgrade, and we wound up in the video game!

Which goes directly against this policy in the FAQ

A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

A 1-A cannot be lowered to a lower tier by being made smaller in a quantitative manner. Additionally, a video game is a binary number system, which means its part of the same hierarchy as the normal universe since Upgrade was able to directly interact with it. 1-A requires a complete separation in realness, which isn't present here. The game is real, just lower in scale.

To better understand the concept, consider the fact that all tiers from 11-C to Low 1-A can ultimately be bridged together by summing up smaller things, and can likewise be decomposed down into these smaller constituents. For example, a mathematical space with an inaccessible cardinal's worth of dimensions (Well into High 1-B+) is reducible to the individual elements comprising it, each of which is a 0-dimensional point.

So this is not a 1-A justification.

In Ben's dream, what exists inside the mind—other dimensions, like the null void, can be realized. Space, at least the distance from the Earth to the sun, exists there, too. And also, according to the series, the time of day in the dream changes, while in the real world it is still daytime, this means that in the dream time is also not fixed with the time of the real world.

Being in a Dream =/= being more real. The episode itself contradicts this idea, as the real Gwen and Max were able to locate a frequency and tap into the dream

Gwen: Sir Enoch wanted the Omnitrix, but to remove it, they needed time, so they used an alien technology that would keep you happy in dream land, while they worked to remove it.

Ben: That's why the watch was wigging out.

Gwen: Fortunately, Grandpa was able to track the Omnitrix's signal and tap into the frequency of their dream machine, which let us come in here and try to fish you out.

The Dream is therefore using signals and technology created by and can be tapped into by people in the real world. So there's no realness difference here. The dream is fake, but neither it or Ben's universe are quantitatively superior.

According to the plot, Albedo enters a dream within a dream, believing he was originally in Ben's dream. Magic can also be used within dreams. That is, from their own perspective, dreams are multi-series cosmological structures.

The Dream is created by real means

Kevin: A Cassiopeian Dream Eater. Nasty!

Gwen: Found it on the Extranet. They attach to a host and make them have terrible nightmares, they eat the chemicals your brain produces on your stress.

Kevin: Obviously, he intended that for you.

Gwen: But he wasn't prepared for how messy your room is.

Kevin: Heh, tripped on your smoothie and dropped the bug on his own face.

Like before, there's no realness difference here. It being a dream by itself is not evidence for 1-A.

And after many seasons, Zskyar, having become intangible, penetrated the mindspace, from this we conclude that the mind, and therefore its derivative in the form of dreams, do not have any physical value.

This is just telepathy my dude.

Anyways, nothing presented is evidence for 1-A.

 

[Simsalamim]

I readed comments, well okay is not 1-A

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

I think CRT should be closed as OP also agrees that the proposal isn't accurate

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Yeah no dude