UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T20:50:35+0100

AyOgUyS said:
So like:
Flowey doesn’t tear himself apart while digging…
Therefore anything that does even one damage to him has to scale to him digging?
I don’t get this logic.

The logic is that 1 damage is more than no damage.

We're not scaling the monsters to Flowey, we're scaling them above something that doesn't damage Flowey at all.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:00:33+0100

StrymULTRA said:
You cannot inflict minor damage if you're so weak in comparison.

Yes, there's a point where even inflicting minor damage means you're in the same general ballpark but fiction rarely ever treats it that way. It's not really uncommon, especially in video games and comicbooks, where even the most powerful characters still take some amount of damage from far far weaker characters but we obviously don't just upscale the weaker character.

StrymULTRA said:
You're treating things as if a human can deal "minor damage" to a tank lol.

I mean I'm pretty sure a human actually can inflict extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely microscopic (like not even visible) damage to a tank. Though obviously this doesn't mean a human is tank level.

StrymULTRA said:
How do you explain Napstablook's 10 ATK damaging Mad Dummy enough for it to be genuinely annoyed despite it tanking multiple times its own 30 ATK blows?

Insect bites and other attacks from small animals can really annoy me, that doesn't mean we should upscale the insects to Human level.

Moon_Crasher said:
The logic is that 1 damage is more than no damage.

We're not scaling the monsters to Flowey, we're scaling them above something that doesn't damage Flowey at all.

What is this "something" and why would monsters scale to it? Most monsters are below a Frisk who literally nearly gets one tapped by Flowey.

ShockingPsychic said:
My suggestion is that Frisk, Flowey, Toriel, Asgore, Undyne, and probably Mettaton/other bosses(?) scale to a flat 9-A while everyone retains a 9-B rating with a "at most 9-A" scaling to Frisk.

I can live with that.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
The other 9-B Royal Guards and any amount of skill wouldn't have mattered against a 9-A Toriel. Maybe Toriel was holding back, or maybe she was simply caught off guard, but considering Undyne is the same person who used to spar with and even knocked down Asgore, and that sans explicitly points to her strength when talking about her overthrowing Toriel, there's really no reason to be so skeptical that she isn't leagues below the Boss Monsters, much less someone (Flowey) who's weaker than them.

I'm not saying Undyne should be like an order of magnitude lower but she can have a lower value than Toriel and Asgore while still being able to somewhat combat them. Like weaker characters in fiction are often still able to fight and hold their ground against far more powerful characters without being as powerful.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
You def know that the CHECK stats serve no in-game purpose and are just Toby's own powerscaling of the cast, so like this does reads as

Images don't load for me...

Randomuser3412 · 2026-07-27T21:02:09+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Images don't load for me...

The first one says "why is the author acting like he knows so much lmfao" and the second one is an image of Mad Dummy fallen apart

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T21:04:07+0100

AyOgUyS said:
What is this "something" and why would monsters scale to it? Most monsters are below a Frisk who literally nearly gets one tapped by Flowey.

Frisk nearly got one-tapped by Flowey when he used an actual attack, this is literally just him casually moving.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:04:15+0100

Randomuser3412 said:
The first one says "why is the author acting like he knows so much lmfao"

Thank you.

Randomuser3412 said:
and the second one is an image of Mad Dummy fallen apart

Was Mad Dummy like one tapped or did it take many attacks?

StrymULTRA · 2026-07-27T21:04:50+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Yes, there's a point where even inflicting minor damage means you're in the same general ballpark but fiction rarely ever treats it that way. It's not really uncommon, especially in video games and comicbooks, where even the most powerful characters still take some amount of damage from far far weaker characters but we obviously don't just upscale the weaker character.

Thank god the situation is not the same, especially when Undertale's damage is intended given it being canonically a videogame.

AyOgUyS said:
I mean I'm pretty sure a human actually can inflict extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely extremely microscopic (like not even visible) damage to a tank. Though obviously this doesn't mean a human is tank level.

Comparing this to a 1 HP damage out of 20 is just dishonest.

AyOgUyS said:
Insect bites and other attacks from small animals can really annoy me, that doesn't mean we should upscale the insects to Human level.

Except that it has the sound of damage during the scene.

Randomuser3412 · 2026-07-27T21:05:50+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Was Mad Dummy like one tapped or did it take many attacks?

Uhm, it's specifically of when Frisk attacks the dummy and it falls apart

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:10:54+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
Frisk nearly got one-tapped by Flowey when he used an actual attack,

Yes? I never denied that.

Moon_Crasher said:
this is literally just him casually moving.

Why would everyone upscale Flowey moving?

StrymULTRA said:
Comparing this to a 1 HP damage out of 20 is just dishonest.

Still, my point stands. Being only able to deal 1 HP of damage isn't grounds for scaling at all.

StrymULTRA said:
Except that it has the sound of damage during the scene.

Ok and? Is there like a bare minimum amount of joules stated for the damage sound to play?

Randomuser3412 said:
Uhm, it's specifically of when Frisk attacks the dummy and it falls apart

M'kay.

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T21:11:00+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
Frisk nearly got one-tapped by Flowey when he used an actual attack, this is literally just him casually moving.

Also, Frisk's stats when they first met Flowey are at 0 and Sans' stats are 1.

Flowey nearly one-shot an early game Frisk who wasn't as determined as they are later on in the game when they go on to fight Asgore.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:12:08+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
Also, Frisk's stats when they first met Flowey are at 0

I don't think you can view your own stats in Undertale?

Randomuser3412 · 2026-07-27T21:13:27+0100

AyOgUyS said:
I don't think you can view your own stats in Undertale?

Frisk's "stats" start at 0 visually but are both 10 in the files.

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T21:14:04+0100

AyOgUyS said:
I don't think you can view your own stats in Undertale?

This is a joke, right?

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:16:14+0100

Randomuser3412 said:
Frisk's "stats" start at 0 visually but are both 10 in the files.

Thank you.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:18:19+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
This is a joke, right?

Hm? I know you can view HP, EXP, and LV but I don't recall Frisk's ATK and DEF being viewable.

LittleGuy99 · 2026-07-27T21:19:47+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Hm? I know you can view HP, EXP, and LV but I don't recall Frisk's ATK and DEF being viewable.

Larp... in my Undertale?

Randomuser3412 · 2026-07-27T21:19:48+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Hm? I know you can view HP, EXP, and LV but I don't recall Frisk's ATK and DEF being viewable.

They're viewable in the same menu. It's kind of weird that they start as 0 visually, but they still end up being accurate to file stats in every other manner. Like, the Worn Dagger truly does give 15 ATK, visually and functionally, but it just doesn't display Frisk's base 10 ATK for some reason.

Comiphorous · 2026-07-27T21:21:10+0100

If we used the game files stats we'd have things like Mettaton NEO having more HP than Omega Flowey so perhaps it's not the worst idea... For the upscale...

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:22:34+0100

Randomuser3412 said:
They're viewable in the same menu. It's kind of weird that they start as 0 visually, but they still end up being accurate to file stats in every other manner. Like, the Worn Dagger truly does give 15 ATK, visually and functionally, but it just doesn't display Frisk's base 10 ATK for some reason.

Hm, noted.

Randomuser3412 · 2026-07-27T21:23:29+0100

Comiphorous said:
If we used the game files stats we'd have things like Mettaton NEO having more HP than Omega Flowey so perhaps it's not the worst idea... For the upscale...

What I was getting at is the file stats being different from the CHECK stats for monsters and Frisk's visual stats being different from their file stats suggests that the stats we see in the menu are intended to be just as canon as the CHECK stats and not solely for our sake as players.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:24:37+0100

LittleGuy99 said:
Larp... in my Undertale?

I mean I've only played through Undertale one time when I first got it and never touched it again so hey maybe I am a larper lmao.

Comiphorous · 2026-07-27T21:32:51+0100

Randomuser3412 said:
What I was getting at is the file stats being different from the CHECK stats for monsters and Frisk's visual stats being different from their file stats suggests that the stats we see in the menu are intended to be just as canon as the CHECK stats and not solely for our sake as players.

But imagine the upscale

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T21:36:01+0100

For the Flowey digging feat, it might be better to use a elliptical cylinder for the volume, since the "hole" looks like it's only a pixel wide.

StrymULTRA · 2026-07-27T21:38:26+0100

AyOgUyS said:
Still, my point stands. Being only able to deal 1 HP of damage isn't grounds for scaling at all.

says who

AyOgUyS said:
Ok and? Is there like a bare minimum amount of joules stated for the damage sound to play?

wtf are you even talking about? damage is damage, and there was never a moment when the characters were potrayed as opposites. If anything the scene points at them being roughly comparable given that Napstablook is who made MD flee.

AyOgUyS said:
I don't think you can view your own stats in Undertale?

this is just embarassing atp

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T21:43:17+0100

What priority should my new calc blog fall under?

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:48:53+0100

StrymULTRA said:
says who

...Me? I've been arguing that pretty much ever since I made a VSBW account iirc?

StrymULTRA said:
wtf are you even talking about? damage is damage

I'm just a bit confused why you brought up the damage sound playing because I don't think there's any way to reliably find the bare minimum amount of damage that must be inflicted for it to play.

StrymULTRA said:
and there was never a moment when the characters were potrayed as opposites.

I don't think I ever argued that they are but ok ig?

StrymULTRA said:
If anything the scene points at them being roughly comparable given that Napstablook is who made MD flee.

I mean two characters can scale to different values and still be "roughly comparable". A 5x difference in ATK values for example doesn't necessarily mean an actual 5x difference in AP, I think we have some sort of rule in our Multipliers page on that kinda thing.

StrymULTRA said:
this is just embarassing atp

My bad ig?

StrymULTRA · 2026-07-27T21:52:23+0100

AyOgUyS said:
I mean two characters can scale to different values and still be "roughly comparable". A 5x difference in ATK values for example doesn't necessarily mean an actual 5x difference in AP, I think we have some sort of rule in our Multipliers page on that kinda thing.

thank god we never used that stuff, otherwise 0 AP would have 0 Joules when that was not true.

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-27T21:56:34+0100

StrymULTRA said:
thank god we never used that stuff, otherwise 0 AP would have 0 Joules when that was not true.

I’m not sure I understand your point? 0 AP would equal 0 joules as iirc AP is the measure of the amount of joules outputted by an attack (tho when you get to like dimensional stuff and 1-A it gets funky but usually AP is measured by energy)

Zyurtunder13 · 2026-07-27T22:05:32+0100

StrymULTRA said:
thank god we never used that stuff, otherwise 0 AP would have 0 Joules when that was not true.

Huh? 0 AP does mean 0 joules, what are you talking about here?

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-27T22:22:17+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
What priority should my new calc blog fall under?

Frisk tanking Mettaton Neo's explosion could potentially make the verse go up by roughly a megajoule, is that enough for priority 1?

Comiphorous · 2026-07-27T22:24:35+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
Frisk tanking Mettaton Neo's explosion could potentially make the verse go up by roughly a megajoule, is that enough for priority 1?

1-2 is probably fine. It's a pretty arbitrary scale.

IDK3465 · 2026-07-27T23:32:24+0100

Moon_Crasher said:
Frisk tanking Mettaton Neo's explosion could potentially make the verse go up by roughly a megajoule, is that enough for priority 1?

For the Neo calc, can you potentially find the energy needed to destroy his body and use that instead of the explosion?

IDK3465 · 2026-07-28T00:29:12+0100

IDK3465 said:
For the Neo calc, can you potentially find the energy needed to destroy his body and use that instead of the explosion?

Ok, the average healthy BMI is 21.7
1.812^2 * 21.7 = 71.2486 kg
The average density of the human body is approximately 985 kg/m^3, so 0.07233360406 m^3 or 72333.6041 cm^3
Average pulv of steel is 655 j/cm^3
72333.6041 * 655 = 47378510.6855 joules or 0.0113 Tons of TNT (9-A)

Frisk Durability: (0.0113/(4π((0.567)^2/2))*0.41944 = 0.0023 Tons of TNT (9-B)

Since they no-sold it, it's basically 9-B+

Recon1511 · 2026-07-28T00:55:34+0100

More irl feats for the ding

Moon_Crasher · 2026-07-28T01:20:26+0100

IDK3465 said:
Ok, the average healthy BMI is 21.7
1.812^2 * 21.7 = 71.2486 kg
The average density of the human body is approximately 985 kg/m^3, so 0.07233360406 m^3 or 72333.6041 cm^3
Average pulv of steel is 655 j/cm^3
72333.6041 * 655 = 47378510.6855 joules or 0.0113 Tons of TNT (9-A)

Frisk Durability: (0.0113/(4π((0.567)^2/2))*0.41944 = 0.0023 Tons of TNT (9-B)

Since they no-sold it, it's basically 9-B+

I wonder if EX's overworld height (roughly 245.73 cm) would be valid to use?

God_of_perversion · 2026-07-28T01:35:25+0100

Undertale fans really don't know how to wank their verse. Not only do they love downplaying it, but the glazers don't even know how to wank!
if a MGK fan became an Undertale fan, we would already have several layers of time manip

AyOgUyS · 2026-07-28T01:39:18+0100

God_of_perversion said:
Undertale fans really don't know how to wank their verse. Not only do they love downplaying it, but the glazers don't even know how to wank!
if a MGK fan became an Undertale fan, we would already have several layers of time manip

It’s baffling to me the extent Undertale fans will go to downplay their own verse. In an offsite discussion I had, my opponent seriously tried to argue that everybody, even Hyperdeath Asriel, is Below Average Human level because they can all be defeated by Frisk who is “just a child”

God_of_perversion · 2026-07-28T01:40:54+0100

Next CRT I'm making Undertale one of the top 10 strongest non smurf verses of the wiki

Lou_change · 2026-07-28T01:42:25+0100

I mean with in undertale to my knowledge the only times attacks do less than one damage is:
Attacking Metaton in rectangle form who is canonical described as Invulnerable with 255 defense

So Sorry's drawings with ? Defense

Papyrus not being willing to kill you but capture you

Amalgamates who can't die

Mettaton's electricity during the quiz that does half health rounded down damage (Only seems to happen if you enter the fight with one hp)

Asriel with infinite defense

Frisk at peak determination vs Asriel's last attack

Given the fake attack against Undyne does one damage.

I suspect 1 damage is under normal circumstances the minimum damage possible.

Given the how thing with sans being the weakest enemy who can only deal 1 damage, the intended irony of getting the ultimate weapon and armor just before the final boss where those two things won't matter, and Sans' whole thing in this fight being exploiting the rules.

Claiming sans being able to harm them due to his own raw strength seems to undermine that whole idea.

God_of_perversion · 2026-07-28T01:42:44+0100

AyOgUyS said:
It’s baffling to me the extent Undertale fans will go to downplay their own verse. In an offsite discussion I had, my opponent seriously tried to argue that everybody, even Hyperdeath Asriel, is Below Average Human level because they can all be defeated by Frisk who is “just a child”

Definitely a larper or some one that hasn't played the game since 2015. Any one who has payed any attention to the lore would say this

Eden_Warlock99 · 2026-07-28T01:44:16+0100

AyOgUyS said:
It’s baffling to me the extent Undertale fans will go to downplay their own verse. In an offsite discussion I had, my opponent seriously tried to argue that everybody, even Hyperdeath Asriel, is Below Average Human level because they can all be defeated by Frisk who is “just a child”

Tomato level

UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

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