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Super Saiyan god multiplier (dragon ball super)

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Gp972

Gp972

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SSJ God Multiplier


Establishing a baseline​


We know the standard Super Saiyan multipliers:



Potara Fusion is stated to combine the power of both users and then amplify it further through an additional multiplier.

Also this

And this

Since Base Vegito is already stronger than the combined power of Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2:


Base Vegito > Goku SSJ3 + Vegeta SSJ2


Using the accepted multipliers:


  • Goku SSJ3 = 400
  • Vegeta SSJ2 = 100

This gives a minimum combined value of:


400 + 100 = 500


Applying the SSJ3 multiplier:


500 × 400 = 200,000


Therefore:


Vegito SSJ3 = 200,000 (minimum baseline)


Since Goku believed that fusion would still be insufficient against Beerus, yet later considered Super Saiyan God capable of challenging him, it follows that:


SSJ God Goku > Vegito SSJ3


This allows us to use Vegito SSJ3 as a conservative baseline for estimating the Super Saiyan God multiplier.




Low-End Estimate​


SSJ God = ×2,000,000


Vados explains that Potara Fusion combines the users' powers and then multiplies them by "several tens of times."


Using the most conservative interpretation, where "several tens" is treated as ×10:


200,000 × 10 = 2,000,000


Thus:


SSJ God ≈ ×2,000,000




Mid-End Estimate​


SSJ God = ×6,000,000


A common interpretation of "several" is approximately three.


Under this interpretation:


Several tens of times = 3 × 10 = ×30


Applying this multiplier:


200,000 × 30 = 6,000,000


Thus:


SSJ God ≈ ×6,000,000




High-End Estimate​


SSJ God = ×20,000,000


There is also linguistic evidence supporting a higher interpretation.


In the Future Trunks Arc, Zamasu uses the same Japanese expression translated as "several tens of times" when describing the increase in power from Goku's base form to Super Saiyan 2. Since Super Saiyan 2 is canonically a ×100 multiplier over base, the phrase is demonstrably capable of referring to a ×100 increase.

If the exact same wording used by Vados for Potara Fusion is interpreted consistently, then:


Potara multiplier = ×100


Applying this to the baseline:


200,000 × 100 = 20,000,000


Thus:


SSJ God ≈ ×20,000,000




Conclusion​


Using Vegito SSJ3 as the minimum benchmark and scaling Super Saiyan God above it, the estimated Super Saiyan God multiplier falls within the following range:


  • Low End: ×2,000,000
  • Mid End: ×6,000,000
  • High End: ×20,000,000

The strongest argument for the high-end interpretation is that Zamasu uses the same phrase, "several tens of times," to describe Goku's increase from Base to Super Saiyan 2, a transformation with a confirmed ×100 multiplier. If Vados' statement is interpreted using the same standard, then a ×100 Potara multiplier is a reasonable reading, leading to a Super Saiyan God multiplier of approximately ×20,000,000.

I did this half asleep and with help, so I apologize if some things are poorly explained or missing scans

Agree: @ABSk4

Disagree:
 
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I don't think wiki allows such multipliers like that

"However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case."
 
KaramcaS said:
It was about stacking multipliers for Speed Values. Not Form
Click to expand...
These multipliers affect all physicals?...

Speed, AP, Durability, all of them would get upscaled from multiplier stacking.
What can get accepted are directly stated multipliers, like 50x, 100x etc

But not stacking these multipliers via character A being stronger than character B, and then on and on using them as a 100x multiplier over every previous one.
These series aren't meant to be 100% linear with these scaling levels
And you start getting ridiculous results / statistics from them
 
God_of_perversion said:
"such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.
Click to expand...
Well, we got that Goku SSJ3 is weaker than base Gotenks, and then base Vegito is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So, an x400

There are feats to demonstrate a higher multiplier, in fact. But basically, Vegetto, with scaling, is minimally superior to an enemy(buuhan) that is several times stronger than Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2, then yes.
 
Yeah, heavy disagree.

1. These values are ridiculously inflated.​


First of all, what Goku generally reffers to as "fusion" is what you achieve through the fusion dance, aka Gogeta in Goku and Vegeta's case. Let's not even mention the fact they didn't have any potara nearby (or at all because Kaioshin was fused with Kibito and they broke old Kai's potaras back in Buu saga).

And one of the main conditions for fusion to happen is that the 2 must have similar powers. Thus, you can't just sum up ssj3 and ssj2, at best Goku and Vegeta could fuse while in ssj2.

This would mean a ×200, not ×500.
Far worse than assuming ssj3 Goku would fuse with ssj2 Vegeta is what you did with the transformation itself:

You assumed Goku and Vegeta will do the fusion while transformed which is fine (except for the form difference discussed above), because the math is the same, but then you assumed they will transform again. Into what?? They would already be ssj2 since before the fusion.

The math would probably be:
2(since we assume base Goku and base Vegeta to be equals) × 100(ssj2 buff) × ["several tens of times"](fusion amp)
The atrocity doesn't stop here, not only did you assume they will tranform again and used ssj3 for Goku, now you're assuming the fusion itself can go ssj3 without both sayians being able to do that. It's not a technique like Kaioken to say Goku can do it so Goku×Vegeta can do it too.

2. Contradictions regarding Ssg > fusion​


In DBS, we get to see base Vegito keeping up with Merged Zamasu, despite the latter mopping the floor with ssb Goku and Vegeta.
Similarly, base Kefla was mopping the floor with ssg Goku, despite the base versions of Caulifla and Kale being weaker than (or at best relatable to) base Goku. Let's not even talk about how they were extremely weakened when they fused, being literally about to be thrown off the arena.
Base Gogeta and ssj Gogeta were easily keeping up with a far stronger version of Broly than the one who did the famous ice scene with ssg Goku's head and also stronger than even the Broly who was low diffing ssb Goku and Vegeta.

3. The wiki's rules​


The wiki has really strict rules regarding multiplier stacking and Ssg doesn't even have the feats to back up a scaling of several tens of times above ssj2, let alone thousands of times.

Basically what @God_of_perversion said

Also, I personally disagree with the idea ssj being a 50 times amp means it amplifies multiple stats by 50 times and it clearly amplifies all stats, so idk why use 50 for ap, 50 for durability, etc(glad the speed part got debunked, although some of the ×50 clearly goes into speed too), but whatever, that's unrelated.

Idt I will engage in any debate, if I will, I will probably reply tmrw, although given how things are, I think the thread will be closed until then.
 
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ItsMeat said:
Yeah, heavy disagree
Click to expand...

1. Potara fusion is superior to Metamoran fusion, Vados says the same thing as Gogeta "they are more than the sums of the parts"

2. The fusion is the sum of the MAXIMUM powers (example Gogeta base > ssjb goku + ssjb vegeta)

3. What your point? Goten and trunks don't even have SSJ2 and they can use SSJ3 as Gotenks

4. It's not SSJG > fusion it's, ssjg > vegeto buu saga

Goku SSJ God is stronger than a hypothetical pre-ritual Vegito

5. In the rules You have a point, Although I think the problem isn't the SSJG, but rather Vegito's multiplier
A it have the feats
 
ItsMeat said:
Similarly, base Kefla was mopping the floor with ssg Goku, despite the base versions of Caulifla and Kale being weaker than (or at best relatable to) base Goku. Let's not even talk about how they were extremely weakened when they fused, being literally about to be thrown off the arena.
Click to expand...
With only this and the Zamazu example, this thread is already debunked, so yeah, disagree
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
With only this and the Zamazu example, this thread is already debunked, so yeah, disagree
Click to expand...
Nobody is saying that a Super Saiyan God is always superior to fusion, I say that Super Saiyan God is superior to Z's Vegito and pre ritual Vegito
 
Gp972 said:
Nobody is saying that a Super Saiyan God is always superior to fusion, I say that Super Saiyan God is superior to Z's Vegito and pre ritual Vegito
Click to expand...
Goku ssg>> Vegito

Then Goku with goku ssb<<<< base vegito?

Unless the series is giving Vegito the massive multiplier of ssg and ssb to base Vegito, which itself is bullshit because both forms are done with God Ki, so clearly Vegito would have god ki at the time Goku and Vegeta unlocking the forms, then fusion is stronger than ssg, because Kefla clearly is stomping a tired goku and Kefla has 0 God Ki

So the consistency of this is bad
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Goku ssg>> Vegito

Then Goku with goku ssb<<<< base vegito?

Unless the series is giving Vegito the massive multiplier of ssg and ssb to base Vegito, which itself is bullshit because both forms are done with God Ki, so clearly Vegito would have god ki at the time Goku and Vegeta unlocking the forms, then fusion is stronger than ssg, because Kefla clearly is stomping a tired goku and Kefla has 0 God Ki

So the consistency of this is bad
Click to expand...
Bro
 
ItsMeat said:
Snip
Click to expand...

Goku ssg>> Vegito

Then Goku with goku ssb<<<< base vegito?

Unless the series is giving Vegito the massive multiplier of ssg and ssb to base Vegito, which itself is bullshit because both forms are done with God Ki, so clearly Vegito would have god ki at the time Goku and Vegeta unlocking the forms, then fusion is stronger than ssg, because Kefla clearly is stomping a tired goku and Kefla has 0 God Ki

So the consistency of this is bad
Click to expand...

I think you don't understand their point.

Their point is that Goku and Vegeta fusing into Vegito previous to the God Ritual (when Goku made the statement. He didn't know about ssg at the time) is considered not enough to face Beerus. Fusions rn are stated to be, at base, stronger than the sum of the fuses' full power (with the examples including what you've been using of base Vegito mopping the floor with an enemy stronger than both Blue Goku and Vegeta). So, base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (I'll remark again that we're talking about Pre-God ritual)

Yet, SSG Goku was capable of fighting on par with Beerus to the point Goku thought the latter was using his full power, making it more powerful than whatever Vegito would reach. And then the multiplier logic is applied.

Whether this is valid for a multiplier or not I'll not debate. Just wanna clarify their point. That being said:

You assumed Goku and Vegeta will do the fusion while transformed
Click to expand...

They are not. They are asuming that the base form of the fusion is stronger than the fuses' full power. Which is accepted, as you can check in DBS Anime Vegito's profile (for some reason I get an error when I try to link the thread here)

2. Contradictions regarding Ssg > fusion
Click to expand...

As I previously said, no one is arguing that SSG of one of the fuses is stronger than the base form of the fusion. That is completely wrong, yeah.

What is being argued is that SSG Goku is stronger than a hypothetical pre-God ritual Vegito (that is: SSG is stronger than the full power of what Vegito could've reached (without the ritual, obviously, because Goku didn't know about its existence at that point) if he used his full power at the time). Obviously, a Vegito post-ritual (hell, even if Goku gained SSG and then instead of going fighting Vegito immediately he used Potaras and fused with Vegeta) would be stronger than SSG, per the fusion way of functioning. So, those points do not really prove anything against what is being purposed, because they are talking about an entirely different thing.

Tl;dr:

Here, we're talking about SSG Goku scaling above the full power of a hypothetical fusion of Vegeta and Goku previous to God ritual. Then applying that reasonment to the multiplier. As I've said, I'll not talk about that part given I myself found it a little bit iffy.

Those points are arguing that fusion's base power are stronger than the strongest form of the fuses.

Both ideas can coexist and do not contradict each other.

Side note: I've only being talking about Vegito because it is what OP has mentioned. He made a good point about the possibility of Goku referring to Gogeta, though.
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Goku ssg>> Vegito

Then Goku with goku ssb<<<< base vegito?

Unless the series is giving Vegito the massive multiplier of ssg and ssb to base Vegito, which itself is bullshit because both forms are done with God Ki, so clearly Vegito would have god ki at the time Goku and Vegeta unlocking the forms, then fusion is stronger than ssg, because Kefla clearly is stomping a tired goku and Kefla has 0 God Ki

So the consistency of this is bad
Click to expand...
Piccolo says that if Goten and Trunks got even a little bit stronger by training, it'd be much more effective once they fuse.
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
So this, in my eyes, would imply the increase in power from Fusion (and consequently the Potara, which is a stronger form of the same effect) isn't static and also depends on the power of the fusees. This would explain why merging seems quite a bit stronger later in Super compared to Battle of Gods. (That is, if you take the increase in power from the SSJG ritual to be the same as the transformation on its own being used later, which I do not.)
 
In addition to the stacking issues and everything raised above, the Super Saiyan God ascension boosted his base form as well as granting him the form, making the amp he gains from transforming back into SSG far smaller than the overall boost he got from ascending to that godhood state to fight Beerus.

I'm in disagreement, and lean towards closing this thread.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
the Super Saiyan God ascension boosted his base form as well as granting him the form,
Click to expand...
No, Goku's Battle Power increased over the course of his fight with Beerus, with his body absorbing the power he created through the Super Saiyan God ritual—thus increasing the upper limits of his latent potential, which, like with Third Form Frieza or Garlic Jr.'s Gigantification technique, increased his base Battle Power (because your base strength is only a fraction of your full potential)—and actively adapting to its newfound abilities and Beerus's own strength, as Saiyans do. If Goku became a Super Saiyan God and exhausted the form's time limit without having a life-or-death battle with Beerus and absorbing the form's power, then he'd be as strong as he was before once his godly powers expire.
Random-Helper323 said:
making the amp he gains from transforming back into SSG far smaller than the overall boost he got from ascending to that godhood state to fight Beerus.
Click to expand...
Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God. Why would the multiplier be smaller if the power he absorbed was the power from said multiplier?
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Side note: I've only being talking about Vegito because it is what OP has mentioned. He made a good point about the possibility of Goku referring to Gogeta, though.
Click to expand...

ItsMeat said:
First of all, what Goku generally reffers to as "fusion" is what you achieve through the fusion dance, aka Gogeta in Goku and Vegeta's case.
Click to expand...
Huh?

I don't understand you do know that "merging" is fusion and toriyama states that there are different methods in an interview .

ItsMeat said:
Let's not even mention the fact they didn't have any potara nearby (or at all because Kaioshin was fused with Kibito and they broke old Kai's potaras back in Buu saga).
Click to expand...
Shin and Kibito being fused doesn't mean they couldn't give Goku theirs... Thier fusion was permanent due to Shin being the Supreme Kai, thier fusion wasn't tied to the earrings anymore . Old Kai literally gave Goku his in the Buu saga despite BEING A FUSION HIMSELF. So yes Shin and Kibito could still give Goku theirs.
ItsMeat said:
And one of the main conditions for fusion to happen is that the 2 must have similar powers. Thus, you can't just sum up ssj3 and ssj2, at best Goku and Vegeta could fuse while in ssj2.

This would mean a ×200, not ×500.
Click to expand...
ItsMeat said:
Far worse than assuming ssj3 Goku would fuse with ssj2 Vegeta is what you did with the transformation itself:

You assumed Goku and Vegeta will do the fusion while transformed which is fine (except for the form difference discussed above), because the math is the same, but then you assumed they will transform again. Into what?? They would already be ssj2 since before the fusion.

The math would probably be:
2(since we assume base Goku and base Vegeta to be equals) × 100(ssj2 buff) × ["several tens of times"](fusion amp)
Click to expand...
How did you type all this and at the same time completely miss the entire point . No Goku and Vegeta wouldn't fuse in any form and would do so in base kinda already addressed in the Buu saga. The point is that
"fusion's base form is always stronger than one of the fusee's at max power. In this case, Base Buu Saga Vegito is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A fusion's base form being stronger than each of it's fusees at maximum power is consistent and is always shown to be true everytime a fusion is shown on screen."

That's what OP is talking about and why he's arguing that base Vegito>> ssj2&3 Goku and Vegeta respectively they don't need to transform at their max power because it wouldn't make any difference after the fusion power wise the only problem is that they'd be stuck In that form and It would shorten thier lifespan or something.
ItsMeat said:
In DBS, we get to see base Vegito keeping up with Merged Zamasu, despite the latter mopping the floor with ssb Goku and Vegeta.
Click to expand...
Didn't happen Vegito went blue immediately
ItsMeat said:
Similarly, base Kefla was mopping the floor with ssg Goku, despite the base versions of Caulifla and Kale being weaker than (or at best relatable to) base Goku. Let's not even talk about how they were extremely weakened when they fused, being literally about to be thrown off the arena.
Click to expand...
Let's not talk about the fact Goku was extremely weakened as the fight started right after the fight with Jiren.Also are you presupposing that the fusion is weaker than ssjg despite Goku stating it wouldn't work and the fact he had an opportunity to fuse with a Vegeta that was stronger than he was ? ...


ItsMeat said:
The atrocity doesn't stop here, not only did you assume they will tranform again and used ssj3 for Goku, now you're assuming the fusion itself can go ssj3 without both sayians being able to do that. It's not a technique like Kaioken to say Goku can do it so Goku×Vegeta can do it too.
Click to expand...
Gotenks ??? Kefla using the "green hair ssj" despite caulifla only having the yellow ish type ...

ItsMeat said:
Base Gogeta and ssj Gogeta were easily keeping up with a far stronger version of Broly than the one who did the famous ice scene with ssg Goku's head and also stronger than even the Broly who was low diffing ssb Goku and Vegeta.
Click to expand...
.
"fusion's base form is always stronger than one of the fusee's at max power. In this case, Base Buu Saga Vegito is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A fusion's base form being stronger than each of it's fusees at maximum power is consistent and is always shown to be true everytime a fusion is shown on screen."
Click to expand...

Just a Normal person already said it all
 
Random-Helper323 said:
In addition to the stacking issues and everything raised above, the Super Saiyan God ascension boosted his base form as well as granting him the form, making the amp he gains from transforming back into SSG far smaller than the overall boost he got from ascending to that godhood state to fight Beerus.

I'm in disagreement, and lean towards closing this thread.
Click to expand...
The idea that the SSG from the ritual is any stronger than his typical SSG form is entirely fanon, and unsupported by any canonical material. It is also quite counterintuitive to the concept of SSB. So no, this is incorrect.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
The idea that the SSG from the ritual is any stronger than his typical SSG form is entirely fanon, and unsupported by any canonical material. It is also quite counterintuitive to the concept of SSB. So no, this is incorrect.
Click to expand...
That isn't what I said.

I said that his base form became stronger too alongside gaining the godly form.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
That isn't what I said.

I said that his base form became stronger too alongside gaining the godly form.
Click to expand...
Then it's a non-complaint, because the increase of the base form is not related to the multiplier of the form. The increase also happened after he absorbed the power he got, so I'm unsure how this relates to the argument that SSG > SSJ3 Z Vegito, which is something set in stone by Goku.

Are you perhaps arguing that, because his power in base increased by the ritual itself, that the superiority that SSG showcases in comparison to a hypothetical Z Vegito, is caused by both a multiplier and an increase in base power? Well, that too, is unsupported. The ritual didn't cause any increase in base power.
 
Vegito/Gogeta don't really get a definitive multiplier. Buffs done via fusions while random and usually massive aren't always objective. First time Vegito may have been easily about SSJ3 form Goku and SSJ Vegeta combined. But ever since DBS, Vegito got a buff to the point where based Vegito is easily above SSB forms of both Goku and Vegeta.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But ever since DBS, Vegito got a buff to the point where based Vegito is easily above SSB forms of both Goku and Vegeta.
Click to expand...
If Fusion combines and amplifies the latent potentials of two individuals, then, yes, a Fusion born of two individuals whose full potential is Super Saiyan Blue would be infinitely more powerful than two individuals whose full potential is Super Saiyan 2 and 3. A hypothetical Fusion between Post-Gravity Training Goku and Post-Frieza Fight Vegeta would be, bare minimum, over fifty times weaker than a Fusion between Post-Zenkai Goku and the same Vegeta because the latter Goku has the powers of a Super Saiyan. Likewise, if Goku was already a Super Saiyan God by the beginning of the Battle of Gods film, then his Vegito would be more than enough to rival Beerus's 70%.
 
SSG doesn't get past this section of our rules:
The use of multipliers to gain new statistics is usually a controversially debated topic. The reason for that is that it allows characters to be evaluated as significantly more powerful, without ever demonstrating that degree of power in a confirmable way.

As such several guidelines are in place, which regulate multiplier use:

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.
Click to expand...
SSG has no direct multiplier statement and in one version of Goku's profile is an higher dimensional strength boost. I'm decently sure our rules would not allow for the multiplier scaling chain that you've created.

Additionally Dragon Ball recently had most of its speed scaling removed because there's a massive lack of supporting feats currently, same with lifting strength. Your CRT is falling into the same issues noth threads have where the scaling chain dwarfs displayed feats.

So for this multiplier to be valid, you'd need to show supporting evidence of a 2,000,000 times speed and lifting strength increases. Which has not been showcased here currently.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
SSG doesn't get past this section of our rules:

SSG has no direct multiplier statement and in one version of Goku's profile is an higher dimensional strength boost. I'm decently sure our rules would not allow for the multiplier scaling chain that you've created.

Additionally Dragon Ball recently had most of its speed scaling removed because there's a massive lack of supporting feats currently, same with lifting strength. Your CRT is falling into the same issues noth threads have where the scaling chain dwarfs displayed feats.

So for this multiplier to be valid, you'd need to show supporting evidence of a 2,000,000 times speed and lifting strength increases. Which has not been showcased here currently.
Click to expand...
But what happens to the 160,000 SSG multiplier thats currently accepted rn
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Is there a thread that ever addressed it because the staff thread you linked only ever targeted the z manga and not the super anime continuity
Click to expand...
Super Anime has not been touched afaik. Though the multiplier standards would still apply in terms of massive upscale with no supporting feats. You'd have to show that a 2,000,000x speed increase is supported by verifiable feats.
 
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