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TenSura LN Revision — More Details on the Otherworld

Status
Not open for further replies.
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Introduction​
Hello everyone. Hope ya'll are doing well! So this is a continuation of the previous thread, to add one last detail to the Otherworld. I personally think this is even more simple than the last one, so hopefully this also goes without any problems.

As always, please avoid any derailing behavior and toxicity, and keep the discussion civil!

Notes:
  • Do not bring up "Worlds are Planets" as that's an excessively discussed topic that already reached its conclusion.
Table of Contents​
Currently, Dimensions are accepted as Low 1-C due to the Otherworld (Dimensional Space) being Low 1-C (5D). Please check the current description and details before proceeding:

Basically, we have a significant 5-Dimensional Space in our hands. So, I'll get straight to the point:

Each Dimension has its own temporal axis/timeline, and it's unique for every dimension.

As for Orthogonality, there are 4 ways:
So, even if you stop Time across all Worlds, "Time" is still flowing in the Otherworld (as not a "World" but their container):


So even if Time is 0 inside a World, in the Otherworld Time still flows. In analogy, this would be as if the world's time axis is like a "Point" (stationary) compared to a Line (Otherworld's time axis), which shows orthogonality.

We also even have a direct statement that the Flow of Time in the Otherworld is distorted compared to the worlds the characters reside in:


This method was also accepted here as well (before u say I'm milking another thread, I participated in it actively and ik the context to that interpretation is the same)
So another way to prove Orthogonality is through Yuuki's passage:

More context (long yaps).

So basically, there's the Universe (Space-Time Continuum), and then there's the Otherworld. In the Otherworld there is a "before" and "after" in reference to the birth and end of the entire Space-time continuities that are the worlds. That means the Otherworld does not simply operate on a linear "past -> future" of the 4-dimenional space-time continuum, rather, there is a before and after where even the Space-time continuum does not exist, and there's only nothingness. The generation and end of these Space-time continuums (spheres of light) is also uneven, in other words, they do not occur at the same time necessarily, but rather unevenly.
So this has more to do with the general definition of Space and Time rather than in-verse. We know that:
  1. Space and Time are dimensions of the space-time continuity.
  2. You can move in Space without moving in Time (with infinite speed or when Time is stopped)
  3. You can move in Time without moving in Space (Time Travel)
So in theory, Time would always be orthogonal to Space, as you can move in one without moving in the other under special circumstances.

Another way to prove this is via Scalar and Vector Products:
physics.stackexchange.com

Can we show that time is orthogonal to space?

It's easy to show that the time we measure is "in a different direction" from the space directions we measure. However, it's not immediately obvious to me that these directions are orthogonal. How...
physics.stackexchange.com physics.stackexchange.com

From our FAQ:

Essentially, Time is considered orthogonal to space under our standards too. What is difficult to prove is that two temporal dimensions are orthogonal to each other, but the same does not apply to simply "Time over Space".

In this case, we have a Space (Otherworld) that's 5-dimensional, and it contains the 4th dimension of Time as a part of itself. So, "Time" of the Otherworld cannot flow in the same direction as 4D time, as that would mean it does not encompass the Otherworld (5D Space) itself, which is just wrong and contradicts the premise itself. Therefore, this "Time" would have to extend in a direction that's orthogonal to the entirety of the 5-dimenional space, thus necessitating a 6th dimension, a 2nd dimension of time.
Now this one involves Time Travel. This would probably be the most controversial one, so I don't want to rely on it too much.
So we know Rimuru's world has ended (we have seen how worlds end in Method 2, they erase into nothingness as entire space-time continuities):

For reference, he isn't at the "edge of his world, not beyond/outside it", no, he is beyond it, cuz he's in the Otherworld, which we know is the container of space-time continuums that exists outside of them. It is neither the past, nor present, and neither the future:


It's said Chloe wouldn't be able to Time Travel using her ability, because within the framework of her ability (limited to Worlds), Time does not flow (the world does not exist anymore):


But Ciel developed a different kind of Time Travel, "Time Warp", one that allows you to go anywhere using spatio-temporal distortions:


This is oddly specific since "space-time distortions" rather refer to Space-time storms, which are a thing of the Otherworld:


Which means he used the Otherworld's time axis to go from a point where his World had been destroyed, to a "past" where it still existed.

Arguments & Counters
Here I'll try my best to exhaust all the arguments that could come up, so please read this section before you pose an argument:
  • End of Time is just the edge of time, not outside time.
Answer: Maybe this could be an argument before, but currently it is already accepted that Rimuru was inside the Otherworld (which is = End of Time and Space), so he cannot be at the "edge" of his own world if he's in the space separating their continuums. Plus given the "not the past, present or future", I don't think it's even a proper argument to say "End" doesn't mean outside here.
  • In regards to Chloe, Time not flowing does not mean it doesn't exist.
Answer: This semantic argument honestly doesn't even matter since we already know he's not in the past, present, nor future. That's what he means by "Time not flowing", aka he's already outside of that. So naturally chloe's time travel doesn't work, yet Rimuru's warp does, as it works on the Otherworld's Time Axis.

TL;DR
I think Method 1 is already sufficient and is one of the most direct statements you can get, but all the other 3 methods can be used as extra supporting evidence.
  1. The Otherworld has a Time Dimension, making it 6-D.
  2. Said Time Dimension is proven to be Orthogonal.
  3. Anyone that scales to Dimensions is 1-C (6-D).
If I had to name them, they'd be:
  • Octagram guys (some in all stats by pure strength and some in only AP/Striking Strength via their ultimates)
  • All True Dragons (All stats)
  • All Guardians in their Ultimate key (only AP and SS, except for those chainscaling to someone else)
  • Ultimate Skill users (only AP and SS)
  • All Primordials (only DC, via Nihility Magic,)
  • VoTW
  • God
  • Cardinal World (as location/place, in durability only)
Votes​
Agree:
KingTempest

@Ciel_Trinity439 @AlexSamDen @Incomprehensibleexistence @Re5yh @Noobish2006 @Mr._East_Statement @Cipher72 @LadyVeldanava @BonjourGnome @Ultimuru @CJunitilarian @Eikichi_Sensei @Azertyhuuh @Masayuki568 @AstraphelNoctis4 @Humanitus_Primevilus888 @Sebas-S.P-san @MetaChronos @Explosion-Proximity @0ochayo0 @MSahla @ItsMeat @Ronaldinhxt1

Disagree:
@Vesxpura
Neutral:


Click to expand...

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Introduction​
Hello everyone. Hope ya'll are doing well! So this is a continuation of the previous thread, to add one last detail to the Otherworld. I personally think this is even more simple than the last one, so hopefully this also goes without any problems.

As always, please avoid any derailing behavior and toxicity, and keep the discussion civil!

Notes:
  • Do not bring up "Worlds are Planets" as that's an excessively discussed topic that already reached its conclusion.
Table of Contents​
Currently, Dimensions are accepted as Low 1-C due to the Otherworld (Dimensional Space) being Low 1-C (5D). Please check the current description and details before proceeding:

Basically, we have a significant 5-Dimensional Space in our hands. So, I'll get straight to the point:

Each Dimension has its own temporal axis/timeline, and it's unique for every dimension.

As for Orthogonality, there are 4 ways:
So, even if you stop Time across all Worlds, "Time" is still flowing in the Otherworld (as not a "World" but their container):


So even if Time is 0 inside a World, in the Otherworld Time still flows. In analogy, this would be as if the world's time axis is like a "Point" (stationary) compared to a Line (Otherworld's time axis), which shows orthogonality.

We also even have a direct statement that the Flow of Time in the Otherworld is distorted compared to the worlds the characters reside in:


This method was also accepted here as well (before u say I'm milking another thread, I participated in it actively and ik the context to that interpretation is the same)
So another way to prove Orthogonality is through Yuuki's passage:

More context (long yaps).

So basically, there's the Universe (Space-Time Continuum), and then there's the Otherworld. In the Otherworld there is a "before" and "after" in reference to the birth and end of the entire Space-time continuities that are the worlds. That means the Otherworld does not simply operate on a linear "past -> future" of the 4-dimenional space-time continuum, rather, there is a before and after where even the Space-time continuum does not exist, and there's only nothingness. The generation and end of these Space-time continuums (spheres of light) is also uneven, in other words, they do not occur at the same time necessarily, but rather unevenly.
So this has more to do with the general definition of Space and Time rather than in-verse. We know that:
  1. Space and Time are dimensions of the space-time continuity.
  2. You can move in Space without moving in Time (with infinite speed or when Time is stopped)
  3. You can move in Time without moving in Space (Time Travel)
So in theory, Time would always be orthogonal to Space, as you can move in one without moving in the other under special circumstances.

Another way to prove this is via Scalar and Vector Products:
physics.stackexchange.com

Can we show that time is orthogonal to space?

It's easy to show that the time we measure is "in a different direction" from the space directions we measure. However, it's not immediately obvious to me that these directions are orthogonal. How...
physics.stackexchange.com physics.stackexchange.com

From our FAQ:

Essentially, Time is considered orthogonal to space under our standards too. What is difficult to prove is that two temporal dimensions are orthogonal to each other, but the same does not apply to simply "Time over Space".

In this case, we have a Space (Otherworld) that's 5-dimensional, and it contains the 4th dimension of Time as a part of itself. So, "Time" of the Otherworld cannot flow in the same direction as 4D time, as that would mean it does not encompass the Otherworld (5D Space) itself, which is just wrong and contradicts the premise itself. Therefore, this "Time" would have to extend in a direction that's orthogonal to the entirety of the 5-dimenional space, thus necessitating a 6th dimension, a 2nd dimension of time.
Now this one involves Time Travel. This would probably be the most controversial one, so I don't want to rely on it too much.
So we know Rimuru's world has ended (we have seen how worlds end in Method 2, they erase into nothingness as entire space-time continuities):

For reference, he isn't at the "edge of his world, not beyond/outside it", no, he is beyond it, cuz he's in the Otherworld, which we know is the container of space-time continuums that exists outside of them. It is neither the past, nor present, and neither the future:


It's said Chloe wouldn't be able to Time Travel using her ability, because within the framework of her ability (limited to Worlds), Time does not flow (the world does not exist anymore):


But Ciel developed a different kind of Time Travel, "Time Warp", one that allows you to go anywhere using spatio-temporal distortions:


This is oddly specific since "space-time distortions" rather refer to Space-time storms, which are a thing of the Otherworld:


Which means he used the Otherworld's time axis to go from a point where his World had been destroyed, to a "past" where it still existed.

Arguments & Counters
Here I'll try my best to exhaust all the arguments that could come up, so please read this section before you pose an argument:
  • End of Time is just the edge of time, not outside time.
Answer: Maybe this could be an argument before, but currently it is already accepted that Rimuru was inside the Otherworld (which is = End of Time and Space), so he cannot be at the "edge" of his own world if he's in the space separating their continuums. Plus given the "not the past, present or future", I don't think it's even a proper argument to say "End" doesn't mean outside here.
  • In regards to Chloe, Time not flowing does not mean it doesn't exist.
Answer: This semantic argument honestly doesn't even matter since we already know he's not in the past, present, nor future. That's what he means by "Time not flowing", aka he's already outside of that. So naturally chloe's time travel doesn't work, yet Rimuru's warp does, as it works on the Otherworld's Time Axis.

TL;DR
I think Method 1 is already sufficient and is one of the most direct statements you can get, but all the other 3 methods can be used as extra supporting evidence.
  1. The Otherworld has a Time Dimension, making it 6-D.
  2. Said Time Dimension is proven to be Orthogonal.
  3. Anyone that scales to Dimensions is 1-C (6-D).
If I had to name them, they'd be:
  • Octagram guys (some in all stats by pure strength and some in only AP/Striking Strength via their ultimates)
  • All True Dragons (All stats)
  • All Guardians in their Ultimate key (only AP and SS, except for those chainscaling to someone else)
  • Ultimate Skill users (only AP and SS)
  • All Primordials (only DC, via Nihility Magic,)
  • VoTW
  • God
  • Cardinal World (as location/place, in durability only)
Votes​
Agree:
KingTempest

@Ciel_Trinity439 @AlexSamDen @Incomprehensibleexistence @Re5yh @Noobish2006 @Mr._East_Statement @Cipher72 @LadyVeldanava @BonjourGnome @Ultimuru @CJunitilarian @Eikichi_Sensei @Azertyhuuh @Masayuki568 @AstraphelNoctis4 @Humanitus_Primevilus888 @Sebas-S.P-san @MetaChronos @Explosion-Proximity @0ochayo0 @MSahla @ItsMeat @Ronaldinhxt1

Disagree:
@Vesxpura
Neutral:


Click to expand...
 
Planck69 said:
I'd have just led with Argument 2, since there's a lot of fluff here and that seems to be the main meat and bones of this revision. That said, this seems fine to me, for now.
Click to expand...
The problem with argument 2 is the fact that it just misses the whole point of what 1-C is. All its really arguing is that the time flowing in the other world isnt the same as the time in a regular spacetime, this is in no way grounds for 1-C since time flowing here doesnt suggest anything about needing a specific set of coordinates(R^6) to define any single point.
 
Vesxpura said:
The problem with argument 2 is the fact that it just misses the whole point of what 1-C is. All its really arguing is that the time flowing in the other world isnt the same as the time in a regular spacetime, this is in no way grounds for 1-C since time flowing here doesnt suggest anything about needing a specific set of coordinates(R^6) to define any single point.
Click to expand...
You need an orthogonal time dimension to at least determine a state of before and after the destruction of a space-time continum, which method 2 is. Beyond that, it's 6D instead of 5D cuz the spatial part of Otherworld is already 5D.

Read the FAQ gng 💔
So, for a typical universe, it is a 3-A or three-dimensional structure of significant size collected as an uncountable infinite number of static snapshots through its time axis, making the space-time of the cosmology Low 2-C to fit all the possible universe iterations (3D+1). By having a second axis going in a perpendicular direction, this requires the space-time of the cosmology to have a fifth-dimensional axis to capture the "snapshots" that generate a fourth-dimensional axis (3D+2). More time axis would add an additional total axis with the overall cosmology. Additionally, while a three-dimensional structure is used as an example, this can also work with higher-dimensional structures. So a sixth-dimensional structure with three temporal axis (6D+3) would require a nine-dimensional space of infinite size to contain all the snapshots generated by the space-time continuum.
Click to expand...
Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole are changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created/destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.
Click to expand...
 
Planck69 said:
I'd have just led with Argument 2, since there's a lot of fluff here and that seems to be the main meat and bones of this revision. That said, this seems fine to me, for now.
Click to expand...
I contacted a few staff before in advance, and some agreed with some methods while others agreed with other methods. Thus why I added all of them for everyone's preference.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
You need an orthogonal time dimension to at least determine a state of before and after the destruction of a space-time continum
Click to expand...
So according to you beyond dimensional spaces that also have measurements of change also have an orthogonal time dimension just like a conventional real coordinate space? yeah good one
Anyways even assuming its true, cool? all ur doing is suggesting that time here is 5th dimensional or in any case the same dimension as the otherworld. thats not exactly what a 6th dimensional space is. This doesnt even reflect how time is the 4th dimension in a regular universe 😭

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Read the FAQ gng
Click to expand...
i mean if you read it, you wouldnt be saying this. The faq assumes its already proven that its an unarbitrary dimension and actually has some symmetry to the geometric properities of time as a dimension like in a regular universe.

i mean hey i thought you wanted to prove orthogonality, not assume it
 
Vesxpura said:
Então, segundo você, espaços além das dimensões, que também possuem medidas de mudança, também têm uma dimensão temporal ortogonal, assim como um espaço de coordenadas reais convencional? É, boa!
De qualquer forma, mesmo supondo que seja verdade, tudo bem? Você só está sugerindo que o tempo aqui é da 5ª dimensão ou, em todo caso, da mesma dimensão que o outro mundo. Isso não é exatamente o que um espaço de 6ª dimensão representa. Isso nem sequer reflete como o tempo é a 4ª dimensão em um universo comum.😭


Quer dizer, se você tivesse lido, não estaria dizendo isso. As perguntas frequentes partem do pressuposto de que já foi comprovado que se trata de uma dimensão não arbitrária e que, de fato, possui alguma simetria com as propriedades geométricas do tempo como dimensão, tal como em um universo regular.

Quer dizer, ei, eu pensei que você queria provar a ortogonalidade, não assumi-la.
Click to expand...

Vesxpura said:
So according to you beyond dimensional spaces that also have measurements of change also have an orthogonal time dimension just like a conventional real coordinate space? yeah good one
Anyways even assuming its true, cool? all ur doing is suggesting that time here is 5th dimensional or in any case the same dimension as the otherworld. thats not exactly what a 6th dimensional space is. This doesnt even reflect how time is the 4th dimension in a regular universe 😭


i mean if you read it, you wouldnt be saying this. The faq assumes its already proven that its an unarbitrary dimension and actually has some symmetry to the geometric properities of time as a dimension like in a regular universe.

i mean hey i thought you wanted to prove orthogonality, not assume it
Click to expand...
I disagree.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Each
Click to expand...
This isn't a justification by itself for multiple temporal directions. This justification if true would also be High 1-B and not Low 1-C.
So, even if you stop Time across all Worlds, "Time" is still flowing in the Otherworld (as not a "World" but their container):
Click to expand...
Reiner is wrong. Our FAQ directly states that this is not a justification
Things like timelines having time that passes at different rates would not qualify, as even the theory of general relativity already establishes that with just one regular time dimension time can flow at different rates in different places. Time flowing backwards in another universe would also not qualify it to have an additional time dimension, as it would still use the same directions of past and future as regular time, just with events playing out in reverse. For the same reasons, statements about independent time streams or of separate kinds of time, which could flow parallel to the original time, would not qualify.
Click to expand...
What counts is if you have a space time that embeds other spaces and has those spaces completely erased but the space time is still going on. Just having a time flow while other's don't isn't a hyper timeline.
So basically, there's the Universe (Space-Time Continuum), and then there's the Otherworld. In the Otherworld there is a "before" and "after" in reference to the birth and end of the entire Space-time continuities that are the worlds. That means the Otherworld does not simply operate on a linear "past -> future" of the 4-dimenional space-time continuum, rather, there is a before and after where even the Space-time continuum does not exist, and there's only nothingness. The generation and end of these Space-time continuums (spheres of light) is also uneven, in other words, they do not occur at the same time necessarily, but rather unevenly.
Click to expand...
This is the only justification so far that might imply a hyper-timeline.
Space and Time are dimensions of the space-time continuity.
Click to expand...
Time is not a dimension. Its a series of states flowing forward and backwards infinitely detailing make up of matter. It is not a dimension on the wiki by default.
In this case, we have a Space (Otherworld) that's 5-dimensional, and it contains the 4th dimension of Time as a part of itself. So, "Time" of the Otherworld cannot flow in the same direction as 4D time, as that would mean it does not encompass the Otherworld (5D Space) itself, which is just wrong and contradicts the premise itself. Therefore, this "Time" would have to extend in a direction that's orthogonal to the entirety of the 5-dimenional space, thus necessitating a 6th dimension, a 2nd dimension of time.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. Time in the higher realm can still flow in a forwards-backwards motion without requiring a higher time axis. Its why a High 1-B multiverse containing a Low 2-C universe can still function on a single time axis.
But Ciel developed a different kind of Time Travel, "Time Warp", one that allows you to go anywhere using spatio-temporal distortions:
Click to expand...
I can see this being a justification since it can imply that time branches in a time-like fashion. But it's also using conscious effort
Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole are changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created/destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.

However, caution is necessary. As explained above, we require that the additional time dimension is "a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points." If new versions of timelines are only created if they are changed through singular action, such as time travel for example, then the number of "snapshots" of the timeline would be far more limited. The amount of snapshots would be one more than the number of times the timeline was changed. So, for example, if the timeline is rewritten 2 times, there would be 3 snapshots of the timeline: the original, the timeline after the first rewrite, and the timeline after the second rewrite. Which is far less than the required uncountably infinitely many that a higher temporal axis requires.

Aside from direct statements, the easiest way to confirm that the line is comprised of uncountably infinitely many points/"snapshots" is to show that the development of the timelines is time-like. I.e. typically one would want a statement indicating that the alteration of the timelines is subject to its own flow of time, or that timelines are separated from each other by an additional temporal dimension through which a special form of time travel may be used to reach other versions of that timeline. The most important part is that the timelines are separated from each other by an additional temporal axis, as this implies that the initial version of the timeline is merely one "snapshot" out of a continuous, uncountably infinite flow of "snapshots." Note that cases in which the timelines are separated by a spatial axis, are merely branching timelines, or otherwise cannot be demonstrated to have an additional temporal axis separating them would not qualify, and that such statements can be considered contradicted if the fiction specifies that new versions of the timeline, i.e. additional snapshots, are only created when the timeline is altered or similar.
Click to expand...
If these space-warps are natural then it counts, if they're not natural then it's not a justification
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Isso, por si só, não justifica a existência de múltiplas direções temporais. Se essa justificativa fosse verdadeira, também se enquadraria na categoria Alta 1-B e não na Baixa 1-C.

Reiner está errado. Nossas perguntas frequentes afirmam claramente que isso não é uma justificativa.

O que importa é se você tem um espaço-tempo que engloba outros espaços e que apaga completamente esses outros espaços, mas que ainda continua existindo. O simples fato de haver um fluxo temporal enquanto outros não o têm não configura uma hiperlinha temporal.

Essa é a única justificativa até agora que poderia sugerir uma hiper-linha do tempo.

O tempo não é uma dimensão. É uma série de estados que fluem infinitamente para frente e para trás, detalhando a composição da matéria. Não é uma dimensão definida na wiki por padrão.

Isso está incorreto. O tempo no plano superior ainda pode fluir em um movimento para frente e para trás sem exigir um eixo temporal superior. É por isso que um multiverso de nível 1-B alto, contendo um universo de nível 2-C baixo, ainda pode funcionar em um único eixo temporal.

Consigo ver isso como uma justificativa, já que pode implicar que o tempo se ramifica de forma semelhante ao tempo. Mas também exige esforço consciente.

Se essas distorções espaciais forem naturais, então contam; se não forem naturais, então não é uma justificativa.
Click to expand...
One question: does all fiction follow the same logic as ours?
 
Vesxpura said:
IKR, this genuinely confused me a little. even though he isnt even arguing that its a hyper timeline. his conclusion seems to be that the otherworld is a 6 dimensional space time contiuum. with 5 dimensions of space and 1 overarching dimension of time (but idk thats just me)
Click to expand...
Time flowing unevenly doesn't matter. Its the idea that time has been destroyed in those spheres while time still goes on in the Otherworld. If time isn't destroyed then it's also not a hyper timeline justification.
 
ReasonedZebra834 said:
One question: does all fiction follow the same logic as ours?
Click to expand...
No. VSBW is a broad stroke indexing site. Our standards can inflate or deflate a showing because of that. We try to hit a bare minimum between both however

Q: Are wiki-induced dimensions included in cosmology statements?​

A: For indexing purposes, the cosmological structures in a work are assumed to be the bare minimum size required to adhere to both the source material and the tiering system. For example, a multiverse containing several or even infinite universes, is assumed to be a fourth-dimensional structure with an insignificant fifth-dimensional axis, as this is the minimum requirement to bridge the fiction's cosmology with our technical framework. General statements from the work regarding an 'infinite multiverse' or 'infinite space or volume' do not apply to these wiki-induced insignificant dimensions. Since authors are typically unaware of the technicalities used by the wiki to organize Tier 2 or higher structures, their statements should not be assumed to expand upon mechanics that were never established in-verse.
Click to expand...
 
Vesxpura said:
Pois é, isso realmente me confundiu um pouco. Mesmo que ele nem esteja argumentando que seja uma hiperlinha do tempo. A conclusão dele parece ser que o outro mundo é um contínuo espaço-temporal de 6 dimensões, com 5 dimensões de espaço e 1 dimensão de tempo abrangente (mas sei lá, isso é só uma suposição minha).
Click to expand...
🤔❤️‍🔥
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
​
Click to expand...

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Introduction​
Hello everyone. Hope ya'll are doing well! So this is a continuation of the previous thread, to add one last detail to the Otherworld. I personally think this is even more simple than the last one, so hopefully this also goes without any problems.

As always, please avoid any derailing behavior and toxicity, and keep the discussion civil!

Notes:
  • Do not bring up "Worlds are Planets" as that's an excessively discussed topic that already reached its conclusion.
Table of Contents​
Currently, Dimensions are accepted as Low 1-C due to the Otherworld (Dimensional Space) being Low 1-C (5D). Please check the current description and details before proceeding:

Basically, we have a significant 5-Dimensional Space in our hands. So, I'll get straight to the point:

Each Dimension has its own temporal axis/timeline, and it's unique for every dimension.

As for Orthogonality, there are 4 ways:
So, even if you stop Time across all Worlds, "Time" is still flowing in the Otherworld (as not a "World" but their container):


So even if Time is 0 inside a World, in the Otherworld Time still flows. In analogy, this would be as if the world's time axis is like a "Point" (stationary) compared to a Line (Otherworld's time axis), which shows orthogonality.

We also even have a direct statement that the Flow of Time in the Otherworld is distorted compared to the worlds the characters reside in:


This method was also accepted here as well (before u say I'm milking another thread, I participated in it actively and ik the context to that interpretation is the same)
So another way to prove Orthogonality is through Yuuki's passage:

More context (long yaps).

So basically, there's the Universe (Space-Time Continuum), and then there's the Otherworld. In the Otherworld there is a "before" and "after" in reference to the birth and end of the entire Space-time continuities that are the worlds. That means the Otherworld does not simply operate on a linear "past -> future" of the 4-dimenional space-time continuum, rather, there is a before and after where even the Space-time continuum does not exist, and there's only nothingness. The generation and end of these Space-time continuums (spheres of light) is also uneven, in other words, they do not occur at the same time necessarily, but rather unevenly.
So this has more to do with the general definition of Space and Time rather than in-verse. We know that:
  1. Space and Time are dimensions of the space-time continuity.
  2. You can move in Space without moving in Time (with infinite speed or when Time is stopped)
  3. You can move in Time without moving in Space (Time Travel)
So in theory, Time would always be orthogonal to Space, as you can move in one without moving in the other under special circumstances.

Another way to prove this is via Scalar and Vector Products:
physics.stackexchange.com

Can we show that time is orthogonal to space?

It's easy to show that the time we measure is "in a different direction" from the space directions we measure. However, it's not immediately obvious to me that these directions are orthogonal. How...
physics.stackexchange.com physics.stackexchange.com

From our FAQ:

Essentially, Time is considered orthogonal to space under our standards too. What is difficult to prove is that two temporal dimensions are orthogonal to each other, but the same does not apply to simply "Time over Space".

In this case, we have a Space (Otherworld) that's 5-dimensional, and it contains the 4th dimension of Time as a part of itself. So, "Time" of the Otherworld cannot flow in the same direction as 4D time, as that would mean it does not encompass the Otherworld (5D Space) itself, which is just wrong and contradicts the premise itself. Therefore, this "Time" would have to extend in a direction that's orthogonal to the entirety of the 5-dimenional space, thus necessitating a 6th dimension, a 2nd dimension of time.
Now this one involves Time Travel. This would probably be the most controversial one, so I don't want to rely on it too much.
So we know Rimuru's world has ended (we have seen how worlds end in Method 2, they erase into nothingness as entire space-time continuities):

For reference, he isn't at the "edge of his world, not beyond/outside it", no, he is beyond it, cuz he's in the Otherworld, which we know is the container of space-time continuums that exists outside of them. It is neither the past, nor present, and neither the future:


It's said Chloe wouldn't be able to Time Travel using her ability, because within the framework of her ability (limited to Worlds), Time does not flow (the world does not exist anymore):


But Ciel developed a different kind of Time Travel, "Time Warp", one that allows you to go anywhere using spatio-temporal distortions:


This is oddly specific since "space-time distortions" rather refer to Space-time storms, which are a thing of the Otherworld:


Which means he used the Otherworld's time axis to go from a point where his World had been destroyed, to a "past" where it still existed.

Arguments & Counters
Here I'll try my best to exhaust all the arguments that could come up, so please read this section before you pose an argument:
  • End of Time is just the edge of time, not outside time.
Answer: Maybe this could be an argument before, but currently it is already accepted that Rimuru was inside the Otherworld (which is = End of Time and Space), so he cannot be at the "edge" of his own world if he's in the space separating their continuums. Plus given the "not the past, present or future", I don't think it's even a proper argument to say "End" doesn't mean outside here.
  • In regards to Chloe, Time not flowing does not mean it doesn't exist.
Answer: This semantic argument honestly doesn't even matter since we already know he's not in the past, present, nor future. That's what he means by "Time not flowing", aka he's already outside of that. So naturally chloe's time travel doesn't work, yet Rimuru's warp does, as it works on the Otherworld's Time Axis.

TL;DR
I think Method 1 is already sufficient and is one of the most direct statements you can get, but all the other 3 methods can be used as extra supporting evidence.
  1. The Otherworld has a Time Dimension, making it 6-D.
  2. Said Time Dimension is proven to be Orthogonal.
  3. Anyone that scales to Dimensions is 1-C (6-D).
If I had to name them, they'd be:
  • Octagram guys (some in all stats by pure strength and some in only AP/Striking Strength via their ultimates)
  • All True Dragons (All stats)
  • All Guardians in their Ultimate key (only AP and SS, except for those chainscaling to someone else)
  • Ultimate Skill users (only AP and SS)
  • All Primordials (only DC, via Nihility Magic,)
  • VoTW
  • God
  • Cardinal World (as location/place, in durability only)
Votes​
Agree:
Planck69 (Method 2), KingTempest

@Ciel_Trinity439 @AlexSamDen @Incomprehensibleexistence @Re5yh @Noobish2006 @Mr._East_Statement @Cipher72 @LadyVeldanava @BonjourGnome @Ultimuru @CJunitilarian @Eikichi_Sensei @Azertyhuuh @Masayuki568 @AstraphelNoctis4 @Humanitus_Primevilus888 @Sebas-S.P-san @MetaChronos @Explosion-Proximity @0ochayo0 @MSahla @ItsMeat @Ronaldinhxt1

Disagree:
@Vesxpura
Neutral:


Click to expand...

W.

Like Planck69 mentioned, method 2 is definitely the absolute strongest piece of evidence here. the otherworld encompassing the birth and end of entire space time continuums clearly proves it operates on a higher, independent temporal axis. method 1 is also a very solid supporting point

peak, so 1-A Tensura when?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Não. O VSBW é um site de indexação de amplo alcance. Nossos critérios podem inflar ou desinflar um resultado por causa disso. Tentamos, no entanto, atingir um mínimo entre os dois extremos.
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234 said:
Não. O VSBW é um site de indexação de amplo alcance. Nossos critérios podem inflar ou desinflar um resultado por causa disso. Tentamos, no entanto, atingir um mínimo entre os dois extremoOkay, so if a universe has a hierarchy of dimensions—1D, 2D, 3D, constant infinity—and, say, an atom of that universe could contain an infinite multiverse and function the same way as an infinite multiverse, could that be valid?
Click to expand...
 
Cipher72 said:
don't think the OP is arguing for a Hypertimeline but rather the existence of a timeline for a higher dimensional (5-D) space making said timeline 6-D.
Click to expand...
OP is arguing that Otherworld should be dimensional superior to the realms, significant in size, and have it's own time axis. Which is why it should be 6D rather than 5D. Part of those justifications are using our multiple time axis standards.

The only things really backing that are 2 and 4 as justifications, but they do show that Otherworld has a time axis. It's just I'm not sure of it's 4D.X + 1 or 5D+1. Based on the previous thread I guess its 5D+1 even if I'm not entirely surd if that's needed.

The High 1-B thing is because infinite time axis that never intersect is a High 1-B claim. Which doesn't make sense with other statements. Anyways, upgrade is fine based on 2 and 4.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
O autor da publicação original argumenta que o Outro Mundo deveria ser dimensionalmente superior aos reinos, de tamanho significativo e ter seu próprio eixo temporal. É por isso que deveria ser 6D em vez de 5D. Parte dessa justificativa se baseia em nossos padrões de múltiplos eixos temporais.

As únicas coisas que realmente sustentam isso são os itens 2 e 4 como justificativas, mas eles mostram que Outro Mundo tem um eixo temporal. Só não tenho certeza se é 4D.X + 1 ou 5D+1. Com base na discussão anterior, acho que é 5D+1, mesmo que eu não tenha certeza absoluta se isso é necessário.

A questão do High 1-B se deve ao fato de que um eixo de tempo infinito que nunca se cruza é uma afirmação do tipo High 1-B. O que não faz sentido com as outras afirmações. De qualquer forma, a atualização está correta com base nos itens 2 e Posso incluir mangá nessa afirmação.
Qawsedf234 said:
O autor da publicação original argumenta que o Outro Mundo deveria ser dimensionalmente superior aos reinos, de tamanho significativo e ter seu próprio eixo temporal. É por isso que deveria ser 6D em vez de 5D. Parte dessa justificativa se baseia em nossos padrões de múltiplos eixos temporais.

As únicas coisas que realmente sustentam isso são os itens 2 e 4 como justificativas, mas eles mostram que Outro Mundo tem um eixo temporal. Só não tenho certeza se é 4D.X + 1 ou 5D+1. Com base na discussão anterior, acho que é 5D+1, mesmo que eu não tenha certeza absoluta se isso é necessário.

A questão do High 1-B se deve ao fato de que um eixo de tempo infinito que nunca se cruza é uma afirmação do tipo High 1-B. O que não faz sentido com as outras afirmações. De qualquer forma, a atualização está correta com base nos itens 2 e 4.
Click to expand...
Can I include manga in the author statement?
Click to expand...
 
Qawsedf234 said:
previous thread I guess its 5D+1 even if I'm not entirely surd if that's needed.
Click to expand...
His argument in method 2, if we take it by itself and assume its actually valid what hes saying, only suggests that the "time" in the otherworld is higher dimensional relative to the 4th dimension of time, therefore only 5D. that is not the same as a time dimension that is another degree of freedom over 5 dimensional space which is what a 6D stc is in this scenario and what he argued as a tl:dr
 
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