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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Did a quick estimation, Ichigo thinks he would take half a day going at his fastest to traverse the distance it’d take a week with Shunpo. This puts TS Ichigo at about 480m/s for his fastest speed. @Mommyleona doesn’t this contradict every speed calc there is considering these are stated times by two reliable characters?
Not how it works. By your logic the result would only line up if we use calc stacking
Even the time frame of the travel in the original calc was still supported by the anime, the only difference is the red filter in cour 2 which makes every thing hard to see lol.
(it isn't, its day when the invasion starts, and it's still day when ichigo lands)
It seems like everyone's missed that the real feat here is Uryu being able to perceive movement in 1/1,100,000-1/1,300,000 of a second. People argued that it was a sensing feat, thus unquantifiable, but if you look at the raws, it becomes clear that Uryu was talking about his (spiritual) perception/sight:
It's still used as perception, the calc wasnt thrown out just switched
If the distance were short, Ichigo would have reached the bottom in the next chapter, but he did not.
A chapter does not have any set "time" that passes during it. Why are we acting that almost 6000km is a small distance 😭
Its also crazy how yall go and make speed crts when people here are already on their way to fix the speed rating and have said so like month ago.
The speed scaling chain should be done with correct calcs as it's base, I DO feel bad for Nova btw, it's not his fault the calcs were that bad for so long
Also even if we said he could use shunpo to take a week that just makes your arguments even more invalid , he can go far beyond the likes of shunsui who can cross 13 miles in one step back in the ss arc and ichibei in over 3000 km as well as the bambies capable of percieving their arrows fly at lightning speeds and ichigo massively perception blitzes them so why the hell would the stairs even direct his movement when both he and tenjiro can air walk and flash step at the same time and both he and tenjiro knows this?
all of this is calc stacking, you can only find the distance via a reliable STATED timeframe and a reliable STATED speed, those are the rules, they apply for all verses.
The anime simply does not show him and presents the events in a different order.
That means the anime changed things, stop citing the manga when anime is primary canon
You cannot talk to me about author intent while avoiding the manga, which was literally drawn by the author himself
Same author works on TYBW and considers it a better portrayal of his ideas, that's literally what primary canon means, go change primary canon to manga
The author who draw the manga made Yhwach reach up there within the same chapter, but took 20 for Ichigo. Doesn't that tell you something? Be honest.
The anime doesn't even necessary contradict it anyway, since it decides to simply display events in different orders.
By that same logic manga also has "cinematic timeframes"
 
As for the stairs, you think they summoned the chairs just to tell Ichigo "jump"? It was kinda obvious that they intended him to go through the stairs, he just jumped when he got told about the invasion already starting hours ago so he had to just rush which is why he even crashes way faster than he expected and says he was a little too fast.

No, they where just ******* with him, the stairs don't even go all the way down and they send Renji, Rukia and Byakuya without them.

Tenjiro wanted to get a reaction, but he always mean just jumping down as the others did, even Ichigo saying if he goes all out would take half a day and then taking 9-10 hours means that was the intent.

3428720-bleach%2004.jpg



That means the anime changed things, stop citing the manga when anime is primary canon

The anime takes precedence if there's a contradiction, extra data from the manga is still canon as it's still a secondary source.


A chapter does not have any set "time" that passes during it. Why are we acting that almost 6000km is a small distance

Because anyone on Ichibei tier and up can cross 3000km in seconds.


Interesting how you left out that, in the main canon (the anime), the travel that Ichigo does and the travel Yhwach does takes the almost same exact time if u wanna use episodes as time-frames so this is indeed not a good example:
  • Ichigo's travel starts at the beginning Episode 19 (01:23) and ends it at around the middle of Episode 21 (07:45).
  • Yhwach's travel starts at the end of Episode 21 (22:32) and ends it at at the end of Episode 23 (23:45).
If you wanna use the cinematic time-frames that we see therefore:
  • Ichigo took exactly 2 episodes and 6 minutes 22 seconds to reach the palace.
  • Yhwach took exactly 2 episodes and 1 minute 13 seconds to reach the palace.
It really isn't the support you think it is man, if you wanna argue author intention because of the amount of episodes/time in-between, it's basically the same.

Or you could just read the manga and watch the episodes, Ywach got there in less than 1:40hs but Ichigo needed a full night.


The narrative does indeed never portray Yhwach's Reiatsu to be able to launch him that fast and only Auswahlen from Base Yhwach (as Darkness is NOT base Yhwach) ever is portrayed to be something that fast because it is specifically an exception due to how it works. If we go by the current scaling even ignoring how it's combat speed, Auswahlen is 2000x faster than Base Yhwach's R/C is.

The anime had Ichigo being stronger than the Ywach that beamed himself up there so it's clear that was a technique mean to be extremely fast.
 
Based on what? And again, you will not get results that suit your wants with this line of reasoning unless you result to calc stacking.

He send Ywach flying 3900km and moved just as fast himself with Shunpo.


And there is

There's none, a contradiction would be having the clock with a different time or the time not matching the anime.
 
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He send Ywach flying 3900km and moved just as fast himself with Shunpo.
This was brought up in the thread lol, 1000ri is used very often as just "long distance" in japanese. Also this is only the distance Yhwach will be flying for, what proves that Yhwach moved all this distance? All ichibei did was catch up to the speed of the slap

Also again, calc stacking. This isnt a stated speed
There's none, a contradiction would be having the clock with a different time or the time not matching the anime.
1. This was about anime portraying Yhwach's way up as longer than the manga, which YES is a contradiction
2. The clock literally DOESNT exist in the anime, so it doesnt match the manga
3. The time doesnt match
(it isn't, its day when the invasion starts, and it's still day when ichigo lands)
 
Wasn't going to comment but I can't believe people are letting them get away with such clearly incorrect recalculations. The new SKP - Seireitei Distance: being recalculated to a distance of 5856 km. Grimmjow in his first fight with Ichigo in base created a sonic boom with his movement. Giving EoS Ichigo this absolute lowball travel speed moving at that speed of sound for 33,300 seconds puts the SKP - Seireitei distance at: 11,422 km, more than twice whatever toilet paper calculation they came up with.
"He was falling"
Right...thats why Tenjiro mentioned it would take a week with shunpo, yet somehow Ichigo made it there 18x faster by simply doing nothing?
Basically his entire argument for the verse speed downgrade relies on taking your brain out of your head, throwing it in the trash, and blindly believing that somehow the Shinigami and Quincy and hollows are moving slower than the average my hero academia student, that somehow Bleach characters can't even travel at the speed of sound in a shonen in 2026.

Edit: The more you think about it the more insulting it gets. They assume it took Ichigo a week to get to the bottom in their calc, this is a narrative contradiction. Yhwach's power was returning in a matter of hours because of the prophecy, so how could it possibly have taken Ichigo a week to get to the bottom.

That was issue 2, in the dirt.

Issue 1 was debunked on page 1450 of this thread.

Issue 3 isn't even an issue, saying things like "10% of the way to the sun". Huh interesting, where was it ever stated the distance of the soul society to the sun? Exactly, no where. Dude is making downgrades using "lack of information" as a reasoning while making changes that also assume information. The soul society is an otherworldly realm, no where is the distance of stellar objects stated, and no where does it say the soul society has to follow the exact same mechanics of the world of the living. There is literally no contradiction in SKP - Seireitei distance being several millions of km long, did we forget its the afterlife or..?

Issue 4 also again not an issue, its an argument made from ignorance. Gremmy can imagine effects onto people, using Gremmy's ability to imagine outer space's effects onto Kenpachi is more believable and takes less guesswork than assuming every shinigami cannot survive in space when we have 1) never seen them walk in outer space 2) Have seen them fine in realms that have nothing at all like the garganta 3) Survived being submerged for hours in Tenjiro's Blood pool 4)Assuming every shinigami cannot survive in space is ignoring the fundamentals of Kishi and Reishi conversion. Also, they breath reishi not air.

Issue 5 again not an issue and actually screams desperation. There is no actual argument outlined, they just present a bunch of scans and assert a contradiction without giving any speed or calculation to their evidence. I have nothing to go off to even debunk here but if I assumed their argument was that these scans contradict Ichigo's time to reach the bottom, you have to remember we're talking about travel speed, what is the issue with some objects falling faster than ichigos travel speed? Where is the contradiction? Then the pieces of Lille reaching the bottom quickly, Lille is light, assuming the previous lowball of SKP -Seireitei distance of 11,422km, Lille would reach the bottom in 0.038 seconds completely consistent and just goes to show how much of a non issue this is.

Issue 6 he just asserts the time frame is non canon because the anime left it out. Do I need to say anything here?


How about issue 0, why is he assuming the realms are planets in the first place when every source explicitly says they're not planets? His entire foundation for the speed downgrade is based on the idea that these distances don't make sense on a planet.
 
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but what about the clouds and atmospheric pressure!!!?
The clouds and Ichibei's Senri Tsutensho that sends someone flying 4,000 km away alone disproves the entire downgrade. It destroys both the distance and timeframe argument for the new calc at once because if Ichigo took a week and it was a distance of 5856 km, when Ichibei slapped Yhwach downward he should've basically shot right into the ground or close to yet the background barely changes.

The fact it's 2026 and this feat still hasn't been properly calculated for the Bleach profiles says enough about the Bleach team on here. 4,000km distance statement and then 1 shunpo to cover it is more than 99% of verses ever get for speed but somehow we can't figure out how fast top tiers are both reaction and movement speed? Give me a break.

And before someone says Ichibei didn't wait the entire distance to shunpo to him, I already got you covered homies, I've been calculated this. Ichibei shunpo'd 3 seconds after slapping, Yhwach traveled for a total of 21 seconds, 21/3 = 7 , distance traveled 571.43 km. Which would still put the distance at 95,928 km, well above the accepted calc. Again this is just to show how far from reality that accepted distance was with even the lowest of lowballs you get much higher results.

Here's a visual for just how far 4,000 km is . The top tiers can cross this in a single shunpo but I'm to believe 5856 km is a distance that takes a week to cross?
soul-king-palace-to-seireitei-distance-auswahlen-speed-v0-739ye9854azg1-1.webp
 
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This was brought up in the thread lol, 1000ri is used very often as just "long distance" in japanese. Also this is only the distance Yhwach will be flying for, what proves that Yhwach moved all this distance? All ichibei did was catch up to the speed of the slap

Also again, calc stacking. This isnt a stated speed
0:15

Brotha you got cooked, your entire downgrade is rebutted.
 
Cool, not a speed statement, cant be used

rest of your response is pretty useless, the 50km wasnt even accepted, quit complaining already
Travel speed creating a sonic boom can't be used , right..
So you need a statement right? Are you allergic to the databooks that say cero is a light or..?
 
Go accept Ceros as light speed :)
So let me get this straight, we can't use Ichibei because its not a speed statement but a distance statement, even though we can clearly calculate how long Yhwach flew for and when Ichibei shunpo'd to him.

So only statements allowed. But when there's clearly a statement, its not accepted because...reasons? So you don't want a statement, you want something more thats not being clarified. I'ts interesting how there's clearly no balance for evidence, you're asking basically for the impossible while accepting nothing yet your arguments have no source or evidence that supports it and is narratively and visually contradicted by simply watching the anime. The anime, which you guys claim is the new canon but ignore something as obvious as Ichibei?
 
So let me get this straight, we can't use Ichibei because its not a speed statement but a distance statement, even though we can clearly calculate how long Yhwach flew for and when Ichibei shunpo'd to him.
Those are the rules yes, this is a calc, using a value from it is calc stacking (ignoring all other issues). I dont make the rules, Im not even a mod. If you have a problem with wiki standards, make a staff thread
But when there's clearly a statement, its not accepted because...reasons?
I just told you, go accept ceros as light speed if you want, that's what crts are for, currently ceros are not light speed, have been rejected to be as such for years pretty sure 🙃
I'ts interesting how there's clearly no balance for evidence, you're asking basically for the impossible while accepting nothing yet your arguments have no source or evidence that supports it
👍
visually contradicted by simply watching the anime
Visually the distance doesnt go above 50km lol
 
So let me get this straight, we can't use Ichibei because its not a speed statement but a distance statement, even though we can clearly calculate how long Yhwach flew for and when Ichibei shunpo'd to him.

So only statements allowed. But when there's clearly a statement, its not accepted because...reasons? So you don't want a statement, you want something more thats not being clarified. I'ts interesting how there's clearly no balance for evidence, you're asking basically for the impossible while accepting nothing yet your arguments have no source or evidence that supports it and is narratively and visually contradicted by simply watching the anime. The anime, which you guys claim is the new canon but ignore something as obvious as Ichibei?
Dude Ichigo had to be crawling on his hand and knees for a 3.9 km las Noches to be accepted. But that’s how staff is. They call in staff to talk that dont know anything about Bleach. Bleach admins that have been waiting for a moment to downgrade Bleach use it to their advantage and other staff just follows along🤷‍♂️ damage is a prime example
 
Dude Ichigo had to be crawling on his hand and knees for a 3.9 km las Noches to be accepted. But that’s how staff is. They call in staff to talk that dont know anything about Bleach. Bleach admins that have been waiting for a moment to downgrade Bleach use it to their advantage and other staff just follows along🤷‍♂️ damage is a prime example
After doing a bit more research I can see why this site gets all the scrutiny it does. All these past recalcs have been is just the same 2-3 people opening a thread, making a claim, and then the same people quickly go to each thread and say I agree, and then tag an admin to rush the changes.

Like I assumed the Bleach team or whoever on this site clearly had a dislike for Bleach but to dig into the forums and see it's basically a handful of cringe guys manipulating profile changes, its worse than I thought.
 
This was brought up in the thread lol, 1000ri is used very often as just "long distance" in japanese. Also this is only the distance Yhwach will be flying for, what proves that Yhwach moved all this distance? All ichibei did was catch up to the speed of the slap

Also again, calc stacking. This isnt a stated speed

1. This was about anime portraying Yhwach's way up as longer than the manga, which YES is a contradiction
2. The clock literally DOESNT exist in the anime, so it doesnt match the manga
3. The time doesnt match
You and other people in that thread were being blantenly dishonest saying the distance was 50 to 80km. Just with a glance you can see it's way beyond that. Ichibei's city alone had mountain ranges on them. The Royal Palace can fit warhelt on it and warhelt is comparable to the serierite in size which 1000+km. Just looking the scene where yhwach created a massive asuwhlen which dwafts the Royal Palace you can get somewhere around 10,000km. This is just beyond the last layer of clouds btw.

As far travel speed goes base starrk move fte to ichigo and kenpachi. He instantly move outside their reiatsu perception and sight. They couldn't sense him or ohrimie. This means he moved dozens of KM instantly to their perception. Ichigo moving aizen outside KKT ,ichigo and yhwach zipping across the Royal Palace moving 100s of KM instantly
 
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You and other people in that thread were being blantenly dishonest saying the distance was 50 to 80km. Just with a glance you can see it's way beyond that. Ichibei's city alone had mountain ranges on them. The Royal Palace can fit warhelt on it and warhelt is comparable to the serierite in size which 1000+km. Just looking the scene where yhwach created a massive asuwhlen which dwafts the Royal Palace you can get somewhere around 10,000km. This just layer of clouds btw.

As far travel speed goes base starrk move fte to ichigo and kenpachi. He instantly move outside their reiatsu perception and sight. They couldn't sense him or ohrimie. This means he moved dozens of KM instantly to their perception. Ichigo moving aizen outside KKT ,ichigo and yhwach zipping across the Royal Palace moving 100s of KM instantly
I don’t doubt that and I don’t doubt mommy’s either. But 5.8 km? Cmon. I’ve already given proof that TS Ichigo should Max out at supersonic but even @Mommyleona doesn’t accept that because even they know it’s bullshit
 
Those are the rules yes, this is a calc, using a value from it is calc stacking (ignoring all other issues). I dont make the rules, Im not even a mod. If you have a problem with wiki standards, make a staff thread

I just told you, go accept ceros as light speed if you want, that's what crts are for, currently ceros are not light speed, have been rejected to be as such for years pretty sure 🙃

👍

Visually the distance doesnt go above 50km lol
So you’re still in favor of the SK palace be a couple miles above the Seireitei. You just opted out because you got voted out. ******* sad tbh.


Still waiting for how Ichigo took 12 hours to travel 50km. Please provide that you hypocrite
 
After doing a bit more research I can see why this site gets all the scrutiny it does. All these past recalcs have been is just the same 2-3 people opening a thread, making a claim, and then the same people quickly go to each thread and say I agree, and then tag an admin to rush the changes.

Like I assumed the Bleach team or whoever on this site clearly had a dislike for Bleach but to dig into the forums and see it's basically a handful of cringe guys manipulating profile changes, its worse than I thought.
The site can be decent when its not the HST lmao. People gets their favorite verse downgraded due to something and then argue "but the HST do xyz".
 
Already answered the other to Luck himself but for the CRT part, it's literally no one's fault that basically all calcs for speed are just wrong. You can't "fix the speed rating" while keeping the calculations as they were because guess what, they were wrong. I'm not trying to critique anyone here, but the CRTs aren't an issue and do not change the "fixing speed rating" idea, it just fixes it more by removing the wanked calcs. The multipliers and in-verse chainscale isn't changing just because the value of the calc is now "X" times smaller.
You might wanna tell that to Nova now. Those crt‘s sure did make alot of things harder for him and have given him more work, if he still decides to fix the speed which i doubt.

But hey, those crt‘s arent an issue so why is he even complaining, right?
 
In ep 21 of tybw, ichigo took 6 seconds to traverse the radius of the seretei, we can get his speed and calc the distance to the royal palace and easily get a distance that isnt based on calc staking and relies on fully on feats. The ichibei and shunsui example meant to establish that the speed of ichigo in your calc was incredibly ridiculous, we are not saying yall should the speeds from the example to calc lol.
 
Did the Soul King create the space time of the 3 worlds or just separated the Primordial Sea into 3 separate space time ? Also, how do they translate to speed ? I know that the former range from MFTL+ to Immeasurable speed, but what about the latter ?
 
Did the Soul King create the space time of the 3 worlds or just separated the Primordial Sea into 3 separate space time ? Also, how do they translate to speed ? I know that the former range from MFTL+ to Immeasurable speed, but what about the latter ?
There's not enough evidence to assert he created the space time of the 3 realms. However, you could argue he created the Garganta which should function as a space time. I'm not really sure any "speed" here is quantifiable or even applicable to the character's personal stats.
 
This was brought up in the thread lol, 1000ri is used very often as just "long distance" in japanese. Also this is only the distance Yhwach will be flying for, what proves that Yhwach moved all this distance? All ichibei did was catch up to the speed of the slap

It's a saying in modern times because Japan uses the metric system, but Bleach still uses the old Ri measurement system, also Ichibei's power is to literally apply the meaning of words so he means exactly what he says.


1. This was about anime portraying Yhwach's way up as longer than the manga, which YES is a contradiction
2. The clock literally DOESNT exist in the anime, so it doesnt match the manga
3. The time doesnt match

The time does match, and the clock not being shown just mean the manga adds more context as a secondary source should do.


Also again, calc stacking. This isnt a stated speed

But if Ywach was flying 5999 seconds to cover 3900km that still makes the distance to the Seireitei for 12hs 28000km

The anime shows 22 seconds which makes Ichibei and Ywach's shunpo over mach 500
 
It's a saying in modern times because Japan uses the metric system, but Bleach still uses the old Ri measurement system, also Ichibei's power is to literally apply the meaning of words so he means exactly what he says.
Ignored the second part
The time does match
-Proceeds to not elaborate in any way
But if Ywach was flying 5999 seconds to cover 3900km that still makes the distance to the Seireitei for 12hs 28000km
bleach-question.gif
 
Ignored the second part

How would it be calc stacking?

Rules​


Only parameters that can't change between calculations can be re-purposed. To provide a few examples:


  • Pixel scaling over several steps is permitted, as long as the size of the scaled objects usually stays constant.
  • Using the calculated speed of a projectile to calculate the speed of a character dodging said projectile on the very same occasion is usually permitted, as long as the projectile wouldn't have changed its speed mid-flight.
  • Using a reliable stated timeframe and reliably stated speed something travels during that timeframe one can calculate the distance travelled. Said distance can then usually be used for calculations.
  • Multipliers can be used under the conditions outlined on the multiplier page.

Using Stated Speeds​


We don't generally consider using stated speeds (even somewhat unclear ones, such as a character moving while a timer is shown) in other calculations to be calc stacking, under a few conditions:


  • If characters are known or implied to not be moving at their top speed in the scene being calculated, an earlier stated speed is unusable unless the stated speed was for them holding back to a similar or greater extent.
  • While we do allow stated speeds to be used across one step of scaling (i.e., if Character B is faster than Character A, a stated speed for Character A can be used in calculations for Character B), we don't allow them to be used across multiple, due to concerns with reliability.
  • Care must be taken to only use stated speeds that are relevant to a calculation. A character's stated running speed cannot be used to calculate someone moving faster than they can react, as that requires a conversion between the two, and thus, a calculation. Similarly, a character's stated reaction speed, or a timeframe they can act within, cannot be used to calculate a character running faster than them, for the same reason.
 
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Proposal - Almighty: Limited Dream Manipulation (Jugram is able to send visions of alternative future to Yhwach as a dream.)

In the anime, Yhwach sends visions of Reio to Ichigo.
 
First line
"Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats."

It's a stated distance over time meaning a stated speed, you wouldn't say someone being said to be 170cm being called 1,70m to compare him to a house is calc stacking because you divided the stated number by 100.

Same as how pixel scalling to then calc destructive capacity isn't calc stacking.
 
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