Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

Like yeah we will probably just slap a new calc for Roshi with moon vape, I just gotta make sure I gave Scarlet the correct moon vape value, we don’t necessarily gotta do what I said in the end of the OP.

M3X_2.0 said:

Okay can we ******* chill now? Why do we gotta waste time and derail the thread because it should be a Calc Group thread or a CRT or whatever?

Agnaa if you think this is a CGM matter because it tackles the way Dragon Ball Z calcs should be done, then move it to the correct board and I’ll adjust the OP.

If you think it’s more akin to a CRT then leave it as it is. ****, why are we even wasting time with that? Why are we even discussing that?

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I didn't wanna just unilaterally overrule multiple staff members without at least asking them first.

M3X_2.0 said:

why are we even heated about that? SomebodyData was chill the whole time and he did not deserver the treatment he’s getting now.

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Breadbear83 said:

Also, could you not say ***** when answering to people arguments? Could had said "we shouldn't accept the CRT and make changes just to having to redo them after a calc gets evaluated" I was just saying that CGM may take their time with evaluations, not saying we shouldnt wait

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I think my wording was a fine way to give emphasis to my point, and not something that's "against the rules unless it goes to someone who deserves it". If you disagree, you can report me to any other HR member.

Breadbear83 said:

The feat I was talking about already got accepted by M3X, the one sapphire shared

And "revise them up to 5B two weeks later once a calc is accepted" would had been dependant if the calc got evaluated quickly or not, it got evaluated already, so no problem

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Fair enough. I've pointed out a small issue with it, but that shouldn't take long to resolve.

Azertyhuuh said:

Roshi should honestly be upgraded to 2-C and have all of his statistics, speed, abilities, and overall power raised, because in the Dragon Ball manga he was able to keep up with Jiren himself and evade attacks that even Goku in Super Saiyan Blue could not avoid. Jiren himself was surprised, and everyone else was shocked by how Roshi was dodging Jiren's attacks that even Super Saiyan Blue Goku was unable to evade, to the point that Beerus himself thought Roshi had mastered Ultra Instinct.

Roshi also managed to defeat multiple fighters in the Tournament of Power and was able to endure attacks from Frost, whose power far surpasses all of Dragon Ball Z.

Honestly, Moon level or Planet level Roshi is a completely incorrect rating and impossible for anyone to seriously accept, especially after his performance against Jiren.

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TRVTH NVKE

Agnaa said:

I didn't wanna just unilaterally overrule multiple staff members without at least asking them first.

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Sure, but you don’t gotta act like that and derail the thread with that topic, I wasn’t checking the thread all the time cause I was talking with Qawsedf off site to reach a conclusion about how Dragon Ball manga deals with celestial bodies destruction.

Agnaa said:

I think my wording was a fine way to give emphasis to my point, and not something that's against the rules unless it goes to someone who "deserves" it. If you disagree, you can report me to any other HR member.

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No one wants to report you to the HR because there is no need to, why are you even acting like that, you were rude, literally everyone in this thread noticed that. SomebodyData said he’d took care of the thread while me and the others talk with Qawsedf off-site for a conclusion and then we could explain ourselves here after said conclusion.

There is absolutely no reason to act like that, I don’t gotta report you to the HR to tell you to chill the **** out now, you were unnecessarily rude with a very chill admin for no reason whatsoever.

I’m not asking you to apologize cause I don’t expect you to, I’m just asking you to chill, cause if all we gotta deal with now is unnecessary rudeness and passive aggressive comments I might as well drop the whole thread cause what’s the point?

Anyway, can we move on? Can we discuss what Roshi’s gonna scale to? Qawsedf already conceded to the point off-site (which I asked him to comment about it, but I’m gonna wait) and I approved the calc but still gotta make sure the vape value for the moon is fine.

My main concern (as best said here and here) was just that we shouldn't apply a new and unique standard that adaptations can never be used for additional values for DB alone.

For situations where the feats are just different (like the Roshi moon feat), then yeah, recalc as appropriate without anime-only aspects.

Agnaa said:

My main concern (as best said here and here) was just that we shouldn't apply a new and unique standard that adaptations can never be used for additional values for DB alone.

For situations where the feats are just different (like the Roshi moon feat), then yeah, recalc as appropriate without anime-only aspects.

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I believe we can and should, at least for how Dragon Ball stands now in regards to canon.

The Dragon Ball anime isn’t just your everyday anime adaptation where they follow the same story, same plots, same feats and same things happening, it’s a Invincible type of adaptation, where not only the feats are different but they also change the plot a bit or add entirely new stories.

It’s so aggravating that we have profiles for both mediums, anime and manga, because the anime has a lot of new feats, and the feats they share in common are vastly higher, some a lower, though, but the point is that they differ, so they have new profiles, new feats, calcs and probably some new abilities too.

This standard (or rule, whatever) was already applied, profiles and calcs were made because of said decision. That’s like saying we gotta merge Invincible comics and Invincible cartoon. No one’s gonna agree with that and it’d be wrong.

M3X_2.0 said:

I believe we can and should, at least for how Dragon Ball stands now in regards to canon.

The Dragon Ball anime isn’t just your everyday anime adaptation where they follow the same story, same plots, same feats and same things happening, it’s a Invincible type of adaptation, where not only the feats are different but they also change the plot a bit or add entirely new stories.

It’s so aggravating that we have profiles for both mediums, anime and manga, because the anime has a lot of new feats, and the feats they share in common are vastly higher, some a lower, though, but the point is that they differ, so they have new profiles, new feats, calcs and probably some new abilities too.

This standard (or rule, whatever) was already applied, profiles and calcs were made because of said decision. That’s like saying we gotta merge Invincible comics and Invincible cartoon. No one’s gonna agree with that and it’d be wrong.

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Dosen't pretty much every anime change or add scene to a rather large extent? There is an effort to keep to the orginal sure, but say in the orignal dragonball anime is probably has more general changes then what I've seen in invincible, I feel like this standard you speak of would need to be applied far more widly then dragonball must anime would probably be covered by it.

Darkmon_cns said:

Dosen't pretty much every anime change or add scene to a rather large extent? There is an effort to keep to the orginal sure, but say in the orignal dragonball anime is probably has more general changes then what I've seen in invincible, I feel like this standard you speak of would need to be applied far more widly then dragonball must anime would probably be covered by it.

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We do hold those same standards you don't see us using mappa BBLs for JJK or other stuff for anime with insane ass anime only scenes or cuts

Darkmon_cns said:

Dosen't pretty much every anime change or add scene to a rather large extent? There is an effort to keep to the orginal sure, but say in the orignal dragonball anime is probably has more general changes then what I've seen in invincible, I feel like this standard you speak of would need to be applied far more widly then dragonball must anime would probably be covered by it.

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We already do that for JJK for example, MAPPA wank the **** outta some feats and fights and still don’t use it to scale to manga characters. But it still doesn’t warrant new profiles, like for example Naruto Storm franchise is wildly different from manga Naruto, new fights that never happened, new scenes, new feats, new everything, so we have some profiles, or at least had some.

M3X_2.0 said:

I believe we can and should, at least for how Dragon Ball stands now in regards to canon.

The Dragon Ball anime isn’t just your everyday anime adaptation where they follow the same story, same plots, same feats and same things happening, it’s a Invincible type of adaptation, where not only the feats are different but they also change the plot a bit or add entirely new stories.

It’s so aggravating that we have profiles for both mediums, anime and manga, because the anime has a lot of new feats, and the feats they share in common are vastly higher, some a lower, though, but the point is that they differ, so they have new profiles, new feats, calcs and probably some new abilities too.

This standard (or rule, whatever) was already applied, profiles and calcs were made because of said decision. That’s like saying we gotta merge Invincible comics and Invincible cartoon. No one’s gonna agree with that and it’d be wrong.

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Not merge, just let the adaptation with more info be used for the same feats in any calcs that don't provide much info.

While there might be a level of difference that should have us dismiss adaptations, even for similar scenes, I'm not sure if modest rewrites, expansion of fight scenes, and filler should lead to that.

And, since I'm not sure, I suppose I should vote neutral.

Agnaa said:

I think my wording was a fine way to give emphasis to my point, and not something that's "against the rules unless it goes to someone who deserves it". If you disagree, you can report me to any other HR member.

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Not gonna report you for something so small, but you shouldn't give emphasis on your point that way, saying "why the ***** should we" it's calling my proposal (wasn't even a proposal, a guessing) stupid, just say the proposal is not good, you can think it was stupid but no need to emphasize it

The actual CRT can continue, Iets forget this

Agnaa said:

Not merge, just let the adaptation with more info be used for the same feats in any calcs that don't provide much info.

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I don’t agree with that, and given how Dragon Ball is currently handled, the supporters and staff didn’t either. Both original source and the adaptation handle feats differently, to the point of two profiles existing. This is also a very not so fun way to look into it and index both anime and manga differently, as they deserve.

Agnaa said:

While there might be a level of difference that should have us dismiss adaptations, even for similar scenes, I'm not sure if modest rewrites, expansion of fight scenes, and filler should lead to that.

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We currently do not use expansions for fights, as in, I don’t think it’s allowed. We have anime to work as a secondary canon when feats aren’t clear enough in the manga but the anime makes it clear as day and possible to calc. Dragon Ball anime deals with feats differently, we even have quotes from Akira Toriyama himself saying the anime handles things differently and it has their own professionals to deal with it.

Agnaa said:

And, since I'm not sure, I suppose I should vote neutral.

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Sure.

And does the manga really have to show everything? Manga is not anime, and that’s something you should probably take into consideration. It’s not like everything drawn in the manga will appear exactly the same in the anime. Of course the anime has more frames, more extension, and more elaboration — that’s literally the nature of anime. Comparing the manga and anime in an absolute way and saying “this wasn’t shown” or “that wasn’t shown” does not really make sense.

Honestly, overanalyzing every small difference between manga and anime is not logical. In the end, they are different mediums, and this applies to many other works as well. Of course there are added fight scenes and extra choreography; the movements are not going to be exactly identical. That is simply how anime works. The manga gives small indications about the fight, and after that the anime adapts it and completes the scene in its own way.

What exactly is the problem with Planet Namek’s destruction affecting other planets? That is completely normal and logical. An explosion affecting surrounding objects is basic logic.

For example, if a nuclear bomb explodes with the intention of destroying one city but also causes damage to nearby cities, would you say that is illogical? That is simply how explosions work. Even if the manga did not show every planet or every tiny detail, that is because it is a manga, while the anime has more room for extended scenes and additional frames.

A massive planet exploding and affecting nearby planets is something perfectly logical. That is just common sense, and there is no need for the manga to explicitly show every single detail for it to make sense.

Azertyhuuh said:

And does the manga really have to show everything? Manga is not anime, and that’s something you should probably take into consideration.

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The OP does actually, half of the proposal is spent on that, it's part of the whole reason as to why the anime cannot be used for the manga.

Azertyhuuh said:

It’s not like everything drawn in the manga will appear exactly the same in the anime.

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You're absolutely right, so there's no reason to use the anime in this case whatsoever, because of how it's depicted differently, as per your own words.

Azertyhuuh said:

Of course the anime has more frames, more extension, and more elaboration — that’s literally the nature of anime. Comparing the manga and anime in an absolute way and saying “this wasn’t shown” or “that wasn’t shown” does not really make sense.

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If there is nothing to suggest that those additions the anime make are also true for the manga, then there's no reason to assume as such. These elaborations and additions are not necessary for quantifying the feat in the manga. There is nothing suggesting mass scattering is also occurring in the manga, so we shouldn't since that's anime only.

Azertyhuuh said:

Honestly, overanalyzing every small difference between manga and anime is not logical.

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There's no elaboration on this you're just being disingenuous subsiding anything different as being insignificant, and that people are looking too much into it. The manga and anime both depict the scene really differently, so it's not something to be overlooked or dismissed, that's faulty reasoning.

Azertyhuuh said:

In the end, they are different mediums, and this applies to many other works as well. Of course there are added fight scenes and extra choreography; the movements are not going to be exactly identical. That is simply how anime works.

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There's a major difference between how accurate the anime adapts scenes directly from the manga, and anime-only changes not seen in the manga.

Azertyhuuh said:

The manga gives small indications about the fight, and after that the anime adapts it and completes the scene in its own way.

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The anime does not give small indications about a fight, we actually see how those fights are depicted there's no subtlety. And if the anime completes the scene "in its own way" then that's just a textbook anime-only depiction of the fight, and therefore can't be used for the manga.

Azertyhuuh said:

What exactly is the problem with Planet Namek’s destruction affecting other planets? That is completely normal and logical. An explosion affecting surrounding objects is basic logic.

For example, if a nuclear bomb explodes with the intention of destroying one city but also causes damage to nearby cities, would you say that is illogical? That is simply how explosions work. Even if the manga did not show every planet or every tiny detail, that is because it is a manga, while the anime has more room for extended scenes and additional frames.

A massive planet exploding and affecting nearby planets is something perfectly logical. That is just common sense, and there is no need for the manga to explicitly show every single detail for it to make sense.

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If you actually read the OP it's talking about how the depiction of Namek's destruction is wildly different between both iterations, with the anime showcasing the absolute scope of it destroying nearby celestial bodies, with the manga leaving it untouched making it far more insignificant in scope. The OP only brings this up to further solidify how Toriyama (who, mind you, has already discussed about how both are separate continuities where the production for one is handled entirely different from the other, and that has no bearing on how the anime's production is handled) does not check or correct the depiction of feats in both mediums, even if they are this wildly different, with of one being regular planet busting, and the other destroying numerous stars.

I'm deadass atm and maybe some of it was already handled, but just want to say: the manga feat physically can't be total ejection given people seem to be hung up on Roshi in particular, for some reason?

For a handful of reasons, but here's just three.

Firstly, while black chunks do exist in the manga panel (assuming they aren't just the black blotches Toriyama draws in basically every single impact showing throughout the entire manga...no like actually go read the manga, you'll see black blotches from everything from punches, explosions, ki attacks expanding, etc. and none are debris, literally tens of thousands of times, thinking on it, a few vaporizing of objects are drawn that same way too but eh), that doesn't actually prove mass ejection. The main problem here is that those black chunks make up ludicrously small fraction of what would be the moon's total mass. As in, say like 99% of the moon was obliterated, especially if those chunks are mid-disintegration like Namek, as opposed to ejection.

Obviously, someone could say "it's just being shown mid-process", but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Like really, why would there just be 5 chunks in particular still within the area the moon once was? The panel clearly draws an outline of the moon's circumference, showing where it was, and those chunks still exist within that area. Meaning, as we see the panel, those chunks haven't even crossed the moon's original radius and been ejected yet. But somehow, 99% of the material is already gone?

You could also just argue "oh, mid-process, the other chunks have already been ejected", but why the hell would that make sense? How is it physically possible for 99% of the moon to be ejected just fine, so fast that it's not even on panel anymore (what, did the only visible chunks we see decide to slow down a few hundreds times so they could be seen?), while a few notable chunks are still sitting here and there within the moon's original location at particular dubious spots even such as the epicenter or close to impact? All at what appears to be the initial start of the blast, given the SFX, and all while none of the other thousands of pieces are shown surrounding the moon's location (being ejected, as to render the remaining chunks still being where they're placed even slightly coherent as at that point you could argue they're being ejected, just not quite as far yet). If the manga was trying to convey what the anime showed, you'd expect to see debris all throughout the panel being ejected outward yeah? The panel doesn't logically, or even physically support that, if anything it proves that isn't what's actually happening.

Second (or ig third), Namek given that was just mentioned, makes the issue worse. In the manga, we see Namek blow up with chunks, at least it would seem, so that's true, but then we get like a whole page showing those chunks weren't being flung outward.


They were disintegrating. We see Namek's explosion occupy its original location, expand a little bit, then completely fizzle out, with zero debris shown throughout the entire start-to-finish process. And this all happens within such a small visible zone that Namek's orbiting celestial bodies are still completely visible on panel right next to it (as in, this isn't some massive zoomout like the anime where it engulfs a zone thousands of times larger than Namek itself). So if Namek's mass actually had been ejected omnidirectionally, it would be impossible to miss. The manga would've shown debris flying everywhere, and it'd be visible given how close the paneling is to Namek's original size and locale. Instead, we see chunks, before they too are obliterated in a glowing explosion.

Thirdly (fourthly?), Buu's Planet Burst has what I can only assume to be a following panel that actually shows ejection,


That's to say, when it wants to actually show super extreme ejection, it can easily, and yet it's not even remotely portrayed the same way (especially to Namek where we see the entire process at multiple stages and it literally just doesn't occur). Now, that said, it also has a statement saying the entire planet was destroyed without leaving a single trace, so hell if I know, maybe that was just a ***** IT panel like the Broly or Met-Cooler movie idk.

But either way, for Roshi's moon feat specifically, the manga panel doesn't show total ejection, in actual fact, it shows the moon being mostly obliterated/disintegrated, with a few leftover chunks still inside the original moon outline, which if like Namek, would just be on its way to being pulped too. Treating that as full mass ejection really ain't supported, it's physically incoherent with what the panel is actually showing and how it's laid out.

But really none of this actually matters, the point of the thread is to stick anime to anime, manga to manga, and only dip into the anime when absolutely required. Keyword: required.
We already split them so they're their own thing. The very author himself has differentiated them and outright said he doesn't really episode-by-episode things (meaning basically anything the anime shows isn't actually his intent, clarification to his intent, or something he even greenlit; it's merely the interpretation of someone else entirely, often done in such a way to pad for extra seconds on the run time). So not only do we split them, it's actually in a worse position compared to most anime adaptions that had the author at least supervise (Toriyama each episode), and even those get subject to scrutiny due to being handled by other people MAPPA for example.

Obviously there may be rare cases when you can't get specific info from the manga (like a timeframe), that a source like the anime might be useful for. But as with everything, you'd need to analyze if the anime's timeframe is actually coherent or reliable in that instance (outside of Kai, which tried to fix some of the padding, but even then some of it is still eh), if it'd be suspect, if you can't get a timeframe from the manga itself (at that point you shouldn't be using the anime anyway as that just leaves it open for possible discrepancy that you wouldn't even have to risk, given what's being indexed is the manga anyway), and much more.
As with everything, use your head before just jumping into shit, only do so when it's a must not a "it'd save me 5m lmao at cost of multiple potential issues".
Fact of the matter is, they're separate, the anime isn't actually indicative of Toriyama's vision whatsoever, and 99% of the time the anime isn't actually needed for anything as the manga does a good enough job conveying or showing things itself, even timeframes half the time can actually be obtained from the manga still. That ain't holding DB to some unfair standard given that seems to be some consensus, it's simply actually indexing the mediums properly and being analytical both where and as it warrants.

Bump

The thread has passed grace + a couple of days so I will be closing it now

What was decided here?

Users overwhelmingly agreed to accept M3X's OP:

Proposed Changes:

1. Remove anime-derived calculations from Dragon Ball manga profile justifications when the calculation relies on anime-only visual details.
2. Recalculate or re-evaluate those feats using the manga depiction only, where possible.
3. If a manga feat cannot be quantified from the manga alone, then it should not be quantified using anime-only additions unless there is a specific accepted reason for doing so (this is your lenience for being able to use anime timeframes when the manga is incapable of supplying its own, as at that point there's not much other option).
4. Keep anime-derived calculations for anime continuity pages/profiles only, assuming they're valid.
5. Add a note to the Dragon Ball verse page clarifying that manga profiles shouldn't use anime expansions for manga statistics.

Okay. Thank you for the information.