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The Great Minecraft Overhaul [Part 1 of ?] (LS and Speed)

Robot972 said:
I would argue it needs re-evaluating since the actual lightning strike travels far further distance than the arc between enemies within the same timeframe
Click to expand...
My main goal with that calc was to try to find the average speed as the bolt went from zombie to zombie, as it does kind of an awkward start and stop thing, rather than a clean, smooth movement, so that's why I included the movement after the initial strike's speed to hopefully even everything out
 
IDK3465 said:
:[
Click to expand...
fefWd92.png
 
IDK3465 said:

Intro​

(credits to @Rakih_Elyan, @JustANormalLemon, and @Oliver_de_jesus for helping to look over some of this)

If you know anything about me and my contributions to this wiki, you'd know I've been working on Minecraft for quite some time now. I've been doing calcs, participating in CRTs, and, overall, just trying my best to support the verse, and over that time, I have found out just how absurdly outdated and lacking our profiles for it really are. What was once just a simple plan to update some stats here and there and change the scaling a bit has devolved into an almost year-long endeavor to revitalize and update the entire verse, everything from scaling chains, to canon, to cosmology, to hax, everything, and I mean everything, needs to be changed.

And now, after over a year of waiting, I think I'm finally ready to start with this bullshit, so here we go:

First things first, as the title implies, this CRT will focus on updating everybody's LS and Speed, per new calcs and other junk.
As some of you may know, there was a previous discussion on how Steve's LS should be treated on-site following the introduction of spears to the game. It ultimately concluded that we agreed any item not explicitly stated to hold mass in Steve's hand shouldn't be used for calcs or scaling of any kind, thus invalidating our current calcs, which use gold blocks and armor.

If you wish to see why this was decided upon, please look through that thread, but in short, blocks and other items are frequently shown to be weightless, small, abstractions of themselves, not just in-game but more importantly, in lore. We frequently see Minecraft characters not really place blocks physically so much as they just kinda vaguely "summon" them wherever they happen to point, and thanks to the Max Brooks novels, we know that items seemingly shrinking when dropped isn't just a game mechanic or artstyle thing, IT'S CANONICALLY WHAT THEY DO. This fact is further exemplified by the spear, which is too heavy for Steve to lift for long periods despite being a mere fraction of the weight of a full gold block, dispelling many of the previous notions that the blocks Steve holds are actual full-sized cubic meters rather than just the abstracted versions we see in-game, making the only items we can be sure to hold mass are weapons/tools like the spear.

Upon creating this new rule, I decided to make some brand-new calcs using the mace instead of gold blocks because they have explicit weight statements, and (as explained in the comments of those calcs), Dalesean accepted the mace's mass to be 358.89456, possibly 2406.75 kg. (Note: while I will be arguing for Mobs having higher jump speeds later on, it was decided not to use those for the LS calcs due to resulting in significant outliers, so no Class M Steve any time soon, sorry)

As such, the new LS ratings will be as follows:
  • The Player: 6.0982 to 29.6654 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
  • Min. Stat Equines: 9.7853 to 34.8370 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
  • Ghasts: 15.6960 to 20.3115 Metric Tons (Class 25 for both)
  • Foxes: 18.8253 to 122.2097 Metric Tons (Class 25, possibly Class K)
  • Max. Stat Equines: 61.1578 to 217.7315 Metric Tons (Class 100, possibly Class K)
Now, as for scaling:
  • Passive Mobs and those that don't have much in terms of actual LS feats, like Silverfish or Creepers, will all be rated as either equal to their IRL equivalents, or down to just straight up Unknown if there is no comparable animal to place them next to.
  • Passive Mobs that can be ridden by the Player, like Striders or Llamas, should at least scale to the Player's LS due to being able to carry them on their backs while also jumping at equal or higher speeds (so technically, they don't actually scale, they just perform a better feat that I'm too lazy to calculate)
  • Regular hostile Mobs, like Zombies or Skeletons, will scale to the Foxes' LS due to them being consistently portrayed as rather weak compared to most hostile Mobs, constantly being frightened by Players and Wolves, and only willing to hunt after small passive Mobs like Chickens or Fish. Also, most hostile Mobs comparable to Zombies should generally be stronger than the Player.
  • Spider webs will scale to the Max. Stat Equines' LS due to being able to slow down and hinder their movement
  • Boss Mobs like the Ender Dragon and Warden, as well as Mobs like the Iron Golem or Ravager, will upscale from the LS of the Max. Stat Equines for casually overpowering them and flinging them away without any effort
Oh, and also, Snow Golems and Ghasts' physicals, as well as any Mobs that scale to them, will have their AP adjusted to the calcs' values (9-C+, possibly 9-B for Snow Golems; 9-B, possibly higher for Ghasts)
Agree: 7 [2 staff] (@Saqphire, @DavidTPPM, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @EnderLord8, @OrangeFR, @ActuallySpaceMan42, @TheOrangeGuy09)
Disagree: 0
Neutral: 1 (@AyOgUyS)

Ok, now for the more... controversial part

In the Caves and Cliffs update, Sculk and, more specifically, Sculk Sensors were introduced to the game, bringing vibration and sound-based redstone mechanics for use in contraptions and other junk.
Now, why is this important exactly? Well, the vibrations Sculk Sensors detect aren't just represented as sounds, but they are fully visible in-game as wave particles that move at an apparent speed of 20 m/s. Since these are constantly confirmed to be vibrations/sound waves, we can conclude they're Mach 1 or 343 m/s, which means they, and anything that moves in tandem with them, have to be moving at 17.15 times faster than their supposed in-game speed.

I have already made an accepted calculation a WHILE ago, updating the Endermen's feat of dodging projectiles, and it resulted in an astounding Mach 36, or High Hypersonic.
That being said, given how high this is compared to Minecraft characters' other appearances, I'm gonna keep it as a possibly rating and replace the main feat they scale to be the speed of arrows instead, since players consistently dodge and block them in the trailers. Arrows go at around 3.15 blocks per tick when shot by crossbows, while Sculk soundwaves go at only 1, so Mach 3.15, or Supersonic+ reactions/combat speed minimum.

Also, (although it hasn't been accepted yet), @JustANormalLemon made another calc for the travel speeds of various Mobs, hovering around the Subsonic range. Lemon's calc is even further supported by this feat of Steve and Alex running in tandem with the Warden's sonic boom, which I calculated and had accepted at 39.0041 m/s, or a little over baseline Subsonic.

As such, I propose that all Mobs will now have their travel speeds scale proportionally to Sculk vibrations, roughly putting them all around Subsonic. Anyone who scales to the Players/Endermen (aka, literally every other hostile/neutral Mob) will have their combat/reaction speed upgraded to Supersonic+, possibly High Hypersonic, and the Warden's sonic boom will be a blitz level above that speed for reasons mentioned in this calc.

Also, this is minor, but can we get this CRT for the Riptide enchantment's speed accepted at some point? Thank you :]

Counterarguments​

There are a couple of arguments against using Sculk waves, but luckily, none of them really hold up to scrutiny, so I'll quickly go through them.
  • "But the Warden's sonic boom is literally an undodgeable hit-scan projectile in-game!"
    • Sonic booms refer to the sound made by objects that are going faster than the speed of sound, not at it. A strong enough shockwave can absolutely still hit a character with Supersonic+ or higher reactions, as there's no sort of speed limit for them. Hell, in some rare cases, they can even be near light speed, so a shockwave/sonic boom being faster than and able to hit a Supersonic+ or High Hypersonic character isn't an anti-feat for their speed by any stretch of the imagination.
  • "You can't dodge arrows in Minecraft, so scaling characters' reaction speed at or above them makes no sense."
  • "Llama spit and arrows can't be that fast, that's not realistic!"
    • Yeah, so are blocks floating in the air, water buckets that can fit infinite amounts of water, and cows reaching adulthood in less than an hour. If Minecraft doesn't care about realism in its physics or mechanics, neither shall we. Besides, the Llama loogies and arrows display a lot of weird properties on their own, like hitting Vex despite them being intangible, or dealing damage to enemies capable of tanking explosions, and are specifically acknowledged in the Mobestiary as alarmingly fast and forceful, given it's just saliva. In short, this is just a big appeal to reality when the media in question has no actual interest in realism, moving on.
  • "What about the speedometer in the glide minigame? That uses in-game speed!"
    • That's from Legacy Console Edition, which got replaced by Bedrock and never got the update that added Sculk Sensors, so the devs couldn't have accounted for the vibrations' speed even if they'd wanted to, so it really doesn't count.
  • "There's this one achievement that explicitly says you need to be going at 40 m/s, the same as the in-game speed."
    • First off, the literal name of the achievement is "Super Sonic", aka, the term used for something that goes faster than sound, which wouldn't make much sense if it really was just 40 m/s. Secondly, Mojang added that before Sculk Sensors. It'd be REALLY confusing if Mojang said "just go fast teehee :]" when these are supposed to be the actual achievement requirements for the Player, not an in-lore document like the Mobestiary or whatever, but meant to serve as a legitimate guide to 100% the game, no shit it's gonna use in-game metrics to help players out.
  • "In the Mobestiary, it says the days are 20 minutes long, same as real time, so this is incorrect."
    • Seems promising at first, but in practice, it just doesn't hold up to use this to downgrade verses heavily, or else SO many games that feature timers or clocks would need to be downgraded to absurdly low levels, even though that's rarely the case in how they're presented moment-to-moment. Take, for example, BotW/TotK Link: if this same logic is applied to him, he'd be 1/60th of the speed he actually appears to go at in-game due to the clock operating at 1 in-game hour per 1 real-world minute, which like... no? Even ignoring the blatant light dodging from AoC, we literally see Link in-game run at the same speeds as foxes and other very quick animals. MF definitely isn't meant to be slower than a literal insect. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that long-term timeframes, like day-night cycles, rarely align with the short-term, moment-to-moment timeframes in video games. You can show a character dodging lightning, but still have the clock in the corner operating at a measly one second per second in the background. Days lasting 20 minutes both in and out of game shouldn't be seen as a sign that literally EVERYTHING in Minecraft is also happening in real time, 'cause very few games actually like to do that and frequently have inconsistent timeframes in this regard.
  • "Phantoms verbatim travel over 20 blocks/second, aka, the in-game speed."
    • Ok, I'll admit, this one is actually a valid anti-feat, but given how it's only a single statement compared to DOZENS of others from the same site confirming that the waves Sculk Sensors detect are indeed soundwaves, I think we can safely chalk this up to Duncan Geere just trying to give players a sense of what the Mob's like in-game rather than a definitive lore statement about how fast Phantoms can fly.
I'll be adding more counterarguments as the CRT goes on, so if anybody wants to object to me on this, please do, I appreciate the criticism :]
Agree: 5 [1 staff] (@LephyrTheRevanchist, @EnderLord8, @OrangeFR, @Eden_Warlock99, @TheOrangeGuy09)
Disagree: 2 [1 staff] (@ActuallySpaceMan42, @Saqphire)
Neutral: 2 (@DavidTPPM, @AyOgUyS)

yup, I'm not done just yet
These 3 calcs got accepted, 2 for the Dungeons Heroes' speed, and another for the Corrupted Beacon's attack speed.

The beam-dodging will upgrade all the Dungeons bosses' combat/reaction speed to Sub-Relativistic (maaaayyybee even travel speed? idk, that one's a bit of a stretch), and the Heroes'/Heart of Ender's attack speed with the Corrupted Beacon will be upgraded to Massively FTL.

You may be wondering two things right now: 1. "Will this affect the base game characters?" and 2. "Will you add the 4-B calc in this CRT?"
The answer to both is no.
1. Because all the enemies in the game were explicitly empowered/summoned by the Orb of Dominance/Heart of Ender's magic, so even if the game's canon (which it sorta is), the Sub-Rel stuff won't have any reason to scale to base game Mobs
2. Because that's gonna require the establishment of a UES for the Orb's magic for it to actually scale to anyone meaningfully, and that's under big revisions rn, so we gotta wait before even trying to tackle that mess
Agree: 4 [1 staff] (@LephyrTheRevanchist, @EnderLord8, @OrangeFR, @TheOrangeGuy09)
Disagree: 1 (@Robot972 (disagrees with Sub-Rel))
Neutral: 3 (@Saqphire, @DavidTPPM (I think), @AyOgUyS)

Also, since I plan on doing like a f*ckton more with the verse, I also propose that all our Minecraft pages be given the outdated tag since there's just... so much to cover (mainly scaling chain stuff cause HOLY SHIT it's so bad rn)

And, that's it, you can now kill me for this if you want to :]
Click to expand...
agreed
 
Armorchompy said:
I'd say that's kinda different cause the Shotgun stuff is specifically an attack and as such something you can tie to character power tiers, whereas this is sort of just an environmental tier. I'd definitely prefer just scaling this to actual combatants over literally everythibg but it's still weird
Click to expand...
Ok, so, just to clarify, are you neutral, disagree, or agree with stipulations?
 
I guess like, disagree if you're applying this to everything, neutral if you stick it to just "combatants" but truthfully if it was me I'd just not use this I think. No thoughts on LS
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Maybe HK's Charged Lumaflies are a better example then, since we can have them onscreen alongside Oomas and (Judging by what the Knight's walking speed got) they'd end up at Subsonic. It's also pretty similar in both cases cause the speed rating the player character would scale to comes from the one attack that’s faster than the soundwave / electricity (Arrows for Steve/Alex and the slashes for the Knight).
Click to expand...
I don't really think so, either way it's an attack you avoid, which means your player character is uniquely interacting with it in a way random enemies don't. To me that makes it a bit better, though I recognize it's a little arbitrary
 
IDK3465 said:

Intro​

(credits to @Rakih_Elyan, @JustANormalLemon, and @Oliver_de_jesus for helping to look over some of this)

If you know anything about me and my contributions to this wiki, you'd know I've been working on Minecraft for quite some time now. I've been doing calcs, participating in CRTs, and, overall, just trying my best to support the verse, and over that time, I have found out just how absurdly outdated and lacking our profiles for it really are. What was once just a simple plan to update some stats here and there and change the scaling a bit has devolved into an almost year-long endeavor to revitalize and update the entire verse, everything from scaling chains, to canon, to cosmology, to hax, everything, and I mean everything, needs to be changed.

And now, after over a year of waiting, I think I'm finally ready to start with this bullshit, so here we go:

First things first, as the title implies, this CRT will focus on updating everybody's LS and Speed, per new calcs and other junk.
As some of you may know, there was a previous discussion on how Steve's LS should be treated on-site following the introduction of spears to the game. It ultimately concluded that we agreed any item not explicitly stated to hold mass in Steve's hand shouldn't be used for calcs or scaling of any kind, thus invalidating our current calcs, which use gold blocks and armor.

If you wish to see why this was decided upon, please look through that thread, but in short, blocks and other items are frequently shown to be weightless, small, abstractions of themselves, not just in-game but more importantly, in lore. We frequently see Minecraft characters not really place blocks physically so much as they just kinda vaguely "summon" them wherever they happen to point, and thanks to the Max Brooks novels, we know that items seemingly shrinking when dropped isn't just a game mechanic or artstyle thing, IT'S CANONICALLY WHAT THEY DO. This fact is further exemplified by the spear, which is too heavy for Steve to lift for long periods despite being a mere fraction of the weight of a full gold block, dispelling many of the previous notions that the blocks Steve holds are actual full-sized cubic meters rather than just the abstracted versions we see in-game, making the only items we can be sure to hold mass are weapons/tools like the spear.

Upon creating this new rule, I decided to make some brand-new calcs using the mace instead of gold blocks because they have explicit weight statements, and (as explained in the comments of those calcs), Dalesean accepted the mace's mass to be 358.89456, possibly 2406.75 kg. (Note: while I will be arguing for Mobs having higher jump speeds later on, it was decided not to use those for the LS calcs due to resulting in significant outliers, so no Class M Steve any time soon, sorry)

As such, the new LS ratings will be as follows:
  • The Player: 6.0982 to 29.6654 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
  • Min. Stat Equines: 9.7853 to 34.8370 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
  • Ghasts: 15.6960 to 20.3115 Metric Tons (Class 25 for both)
  • Foxes: 18.8253 to 122.2097 Metric Tons (Class 25, possibly Class K)
  • Max. Stat Equines: 61.1578 to 217.7315 Metric Tons (Class 100, possibly Class K)
Now, as for scaling:
  • Passive Mobs and those that don't have much in terms of actual LS feats, like Silverfish or Creepers, will all be rated as either equal to their IRL equivalents, or down to just straight up Unknown if there is no comparable animal to place them next to.
  • Passive Mobs that can be ridden by the Player, like Striders or Llamas, should at least scale to the Player's LS due to being able to carry them on their backs while also jumping at equal or higher speeds (so technically, they don't actually scale, they just perform a better feat that I'm too lazy to calculate)
  • Regular hostile Mobs, like Zombies or Skeletons, will scale to the Foxes' LS due to them being consistently portrayed as rather weak compared to most hostile Mobs, constantly being frightened by Players and Wolves, and only willing to hunt after small passive Mobs like Chickens or Fish. Also, most hostile Mobs comparable to Zombies should generally be stronger than the Player.
  • Spider webs will scale to the Max. Stat Equines' LS due to being able to slow down and hinder their movement
  • Boss Mobs like the Ender Dragon and Warden, as well as Mobs like the Iron Golem or Ravager, will upscale from the LS of the Max. Stat Equines for casually overpowering them and flinging them away without any effort
Click to expand...

Agree with this
IDK3465 said:
Oh, and also, Snow Golems and Ghasts' physicals, as well as any Mobs that scale to them, will have their AP adjusted to the calcs' values (9-C+, possibly 9-B for Snow Golems; 9-B, possibly higher for Ghasts)
Click to expand...
So I have a slight question here

I understand that because minecraft logic is the way it is (and the spear stuff) that all of the weight/KE calcs will get nuked but what about feats these guys scale too that don't really rely on the assumption that they can carry this much weight?

Like ghasts for example have an 8-C fireball calc that relies on just destruction (from what I can tell anyway) wouldn't they still scale to stuff like that? Or are those calcs getting nuked too?

Edit: the main reason why i'm curious on this is because if those calcs are still usable then ghasts shouldn't really be 9B
IDK3465 said:
Ok, now for the more... controversial part

In the Caves and Cliffs update, Sculk and, more specifically, Sculk Sensors were introduced to the game, bringing vibration and sound-based redstone mechanics for use in contraptions and other junk.
Now, why is this important exactly? Well, the vibrations Sculk Sensors detect aren't just represented as sounds, but they are fully visible in-game as wave particles that move at an apparent speed of 20 m/s. Since these are constantly confirmed to be vibrations/sound waves, we can conclude they're Mach 1 or 343 m/s, which means they, and anything that moves in tandem with them, have to be moving at 17.15 times faster than their supposed in-game speed.

I have already made an accepted calculation a WHILE ago, updating the Endermen's feat of dodging projectiles, and it resulted in an astounding Mach 36, or High Hypersonic.
That being said, given how high this is compared to Minecraft characters' other appearances, I'm gonna keep it as a possibly rating and replace the main feat they scale to be the speed of arrows instead, since players consistently dodge and block them in the trailers. Arrows go at around 3.15 blocks per tick when shot by crossbows, while Sculk soundwaves go at only 1, so Mach 3.15, or Supersonic+ reactions/combat speed minimum.

Also, (although it hasn't been accepted yet), @JustANormalLemon made another calc for the travel speeds of various Mobs, hovering around the Subsonic range. Lemon's calc is even further supported by this feat of Steve and Alex running in tandem with the Warden's sonic boom, which I calculated and had accepted at 39.0041 m/s, or a little over baseline Subsonic.

As such, I propose that all Mobs will now have their travel speeds scale proportionally to Sculk vibrations, roughly putting them all around Subsonic. Anyone who scales to the Players/Endermen (aka, literally every other hostile/neutral Mob) will have their combat/reaction speed upgraded to Supersonic+, possibly High Hypersonic, and the Warden's sonic boom will be a blitz level above that speed for reasons mentioned in this calc.

Also, this is minor, but can we get this CRT for the Riptide enchantment's speed accepted at some point? Thank you :]

Counterarguments​

There are a couple of arguments against using Sculk waves, but luckily, none of them really hold up to scrutiny, so I'll quickly go through them.
Click to expand...
These are fine
IDK3465 said:
  • "In the Mobestiary, it says the days are 20 minutes long, same as real time, so this is incorrect."
    • Seems promising at first, but in practice, it just doesn't hold up to use this to downgrade verses heavily, or else SO many games that feature timers or clocks would need to be downgraded to absurdly low levels, even though that's rarely the case in how they're presented moment-to-moment. Take, for example, BotW/TotK Link: if this same logic is applied to him, he'd be 1/60th of the speed he actually appears to go at in-game due to the clock operating at 1 in-game hour per 1 real-world minute, which like... no? Even ignoring the blatant light dodging from AoC, we literally see Link in-game run at the same speeds as foxes and other very quick animals. MF definitely isn't meant to be slower than a literal insect. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that long-term timeframes, like day-night cycles, rarely align with the short-term, moment-to-moment timeframes in video games. You can show a character dodging lightning, but still have the clock in the corner operating at a measly one second per second in the background. Days lasting 20 minutes both in and out of game shouldn't be seen as a sign that literally EVERYTHING in Minecraft is also happening in real time, 'cause very few games actually like to do that and frequently have inconsistent timeframes in this regard.
Click to expand...
I feel that this point specifically should honestly go without saying since we know it's possible for games to have special events and stuff locked behind "night" and "day" respectively so if games did have realistic timeframes it would basically ruin playability since people that can't do anything because of IRL timetables (which are a very real problem in real life) are now kinda f***'d and locked out of playing parts of the game that were intended to be free

IDK3465 said:
  • "Phantoms verbatim travel over 20 blocks/second, aka, the in-game speed."
    • Ok, I'll admit, this one is actually a valid anti-feat, but given how it's only a single statement compared to DOZENS of others from the same site confirming that the waves Sculk Sensors detect are indeed soundwaves, I think we can safely chalk this up to Duncan Geere just trying to give players a sense of what the Mob's like in-game rather than a definitive lore statement about how fast Phantoms can fly.
I'll be adding more counterarguments as the CRT goes on, so if anybody wants to object to me on this, please do, I appreciate the criticism :]
Click to expand...
This is fine
IDK3465 said:
Agree: 6 [1 staff] (@LephyrTheRevanchist, @EnderLord8, @OrangeFR, @Eden_Warlock99, @TheOrangeGuy09, @AthelChan)
Disagree: 2 [1 staff] (@ActuallySpaceMan42, @Saqphire)
Neutral: 2 (@DavidTPPM, @AyOgUyS)
Click to expand...
This seems fine
IDK3465 said:
yup, I'm not done just yet
These 3 calcs got accepted, 2 for the Dungeons Heroes' speed, and another for the Corrupted Beacon's attack speed.

The beam-dodging will upgrade all the Dungeons bosses' combat/reaction speed to Sub-Relativistic (maaaayyybee even travel speed? idk, that one's a bit of a stretch), and the Heroes'/Heart of Ender's attack speed with the Corrupted Beacon will be upgraded to Massively FTL.

You may be wondering two things right now: 1. "Will this affect the base game characters?" and 2. "Will you add the 4-B calc in this CRT?"
The answer to both is no.
1. Because all the enemies in the game were explicitly empowered/summoned by the Orb of Dominance/Heart of Ender's magic, so even if the game's canon (which it sorta is), the Sub-Rel stuff won't have any reason to scale to base game Mobs
2. Because that's gonna require the establishment of a UES for the Orb's magic for it to actually scale to anyone meaningfully, and that's under big revisions rn, so we gotta wait before even trying to tackle that mess
Agree: 5 [1 staff] (@LephyrTheRevanchist, @EnderLord8, @OrangeFR, @TheOrangeGuy09, @AthelChan)
Disagree: 1 (@Robot972 (disagrees with Sub-Rel))
Neutral: 3 (@Saqphire, @DavidTPPM (I think), @AyOgUyS)

Also, since I plan on doing like a f*ckton more with the verse, I also propose that all our Minecraft pages be given the outdated tag since there's just... so much to cover (mainly scaling chain stuff cause HOLY SHIT it's so bad rn)

And, that's it, you can now kill me for this if you want to :]
Click to expand...
Oh I remember glancing over these calc (Lightspeed minecraft was an interesting meta)

Yeah this is fine if the characters are getting buffed then it makes sense
 
Last edited:
After reconsidering the presented arguments, I will agree with everything except all the speed related stuff, which I will remain neutral on.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Maybe HK's Charged Lumaflies are a better example then, since we can have them onscreen alongside Oomas and (Judging by what the Knight's walking speed got) they'd end up at Subsonic. It's also pretty similar in both cases cause the speed rating the player character would scale to comes from the one attack that’s faster than the soundwave / electricity (Arrows for Steve/Alex and the slashes for the Knight).
Click to expand...
I wouldn't compare them tbh. Besides what Armorchompy mentioned already, Hollow Knight also doesn't really have non-combative beings moving around the world.

So like, while the sculk upgrades random chickens, pigs, cows, etc, to subsonic ranges, the Lumaflies don't really do anything like that since there aren't even any IRL animals. Not to mention that while there's nothing really suggesting Steve has some vastly superhuman speed, things like the Hollow Knight game guide describe the knight as dashing at "lightning speed", suggesting they are fast.

Basically what I'm saying is that it makes a lot more sense to scale a "lightning speed" demi-god that can dodge electricity and those who threaten him to supersonic, than to scale a regular pig to subsonic off of something that's not even an attack.
 
Armorchompy said:
I don't really think so, either way it's an attack you avoid, which means your player character is uniquely interacting with it in a way random enemies don't. To me that makes it a bit better, though I recognize it's a little arbitrary
Click to expand...
I should note that the Warden also detects vibrations the same way the skulk sensor does, so it isn't just an environmental thing, it does show up as an important element during combat (or well, stealth combat in this case)
DavidTPPM said:
I wouldn't compare them tbh. Besides what Armorchompy mentioned already, Hollow Knight also doesn't really have non-combative beings moving around the world.

So like, while the sculk upgrades random chickens, pigs, cows, etc, to subsonic ranges, the Lumaflies don't really do anything like that since there aren't even any IRL animals. Not to mention that while there's nothing really suggesting Steve has some vastly superhuman speed, things like the Hollow Knight game guide describe the knight as dashing at "lightning speed", suggesting they are fast.

Basically what I'm saying is that it makes a lot more sense to scale a "lightning speed" demi-god that can dodge electricity and those who threaten him to supersonic, than to scale a regular pig to subsonic off of something that's not even an attack.
Click to expand...
We also have this feat of Steve and Alex running in tandem with the Warden's sonic boom, and even at the low end, it's still calculated to be superhuman speed. Steve and Alex can also outrun an entire swarm of spiders and skeletons, and horses are shown to run in tandem with arrows, so, all in all, I wouldn't say the more basic Mobs are completely devoid of other decent travel speed feats
 
DavidTPPM said:
Besides what Armorchompy mentioned already, Hollow Knight also doesn't really have non-combative beings moving around the world..
Click to expand...
???

Crawlids, Gruzzers, Tiktiks, Lifeseeds, Lightseeds, Mosscreeps, Alubas, Maskflies, Amblooms, Funglings, Shrumelings, Deeplings, Shadow Creepers, Uomas, Oomas are all passive bugs that for the most part just move left and right (A few don't even have contact damage) and yet can all scaled to Subsonic (Ooma's in particular) cause they can be seen on the same screen as the Lumaflies' discharge.

The Lumaflies discharge is also an environmental hazard that's meant to be dodged by passing through the flies when they're not doing it. It’s not really an attack you can conventionally dodge.
The Hollow Knight game guide describe the knight as dashing at "lightning speed", suggesting they are fast
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Wouldn't that fall under the same boat as the "Supersonic" Achievement you can get for going around the speed of an arrow in-game?
 
I’m gonna switch my vote to be neutral on the speed stuff, but the same on everything else.
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
I understand that because minecraft logic is the way it is (and the spear stuff) that all of the weight/KE calcs will get nuked but what about feats these guys scale too that don't really rely on the assumption that they can carry this much weight?

Like ghasts for example have an 8-C fireball calc that relies on just destruction (from what I can tell anyway) wouldn't they still scale to stuff like that? Or are those calcs getting nuked too?

Edit: the main reason why i'm curious on this is because if those calcs are still usable then ghasts shouldn't really be 9B
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I just realized I forgot to reply to this lol
I should've specified that the 9-B calc only applies to the Ghast's physicals, the 8-C fireball calc is still fine to use, don't worry.
Also, I wasn't proposing that ALL LS/KE calcs be axed, just wanted to update them to use maces instead of gold blocks since those aren't affected by the hammerspace bs
LandonTheGuy said:
I do not have a really strong opinion about the stuff presented, so i'll remain neutral for now
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OrangeFR said:
I’m gonna switch my vote to be neutral on the speed stuff, but the same on everything else.
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counted ig
 
IDK3465 said:
I just realized I forgot to reply to this lol
I should've specified that the 9-B calc only applies to the Ghast's physicals, the 8-C fireball calc is still fine to use, don't worry.
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oh ok then, thats good to know
IDK3465 said:
Also, I wasn't proposing that ALL LS/KE calcs be axed, just wanted to update them to use maces instead of gold blocks since those aren't affected by the hammerspace bs
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I feel like thats technically axing them tho since ur using the mace now instead of golden armour and stuff
 
Ok, I'm gonna calculate some feats to hopefully drive up Subsonic consistency since that seems to be a major gripe people have, I'll see you guys in a sec
 
Ok, I just found a great example from one of the trailers of some players and a chicken running in tandem with the vibrations, so hopefully that dispels a lot of the worries about it not being consistent. There's also this feat of a bee flying down a waterfall very fast, as well as this one of a camel being comparable to an arrow, so those are also probably worth calculating at some point, along with the horse feat mentioned earlier

I'm at school rn (surprise), but I will go about calculating these later today
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
???

Crawlids, Gruzzers, Tiktiks, Lifeseeds, Lightseeds, Mosscreeps, Alubas, Maskflies, Amblooms, Funglings, Shrumelings, Deeplings, Shadow Creepers, Uomas, Oomas are all passive bugs that for the most part just move left and right (A few don't even have contact damage) and yet can all scaled to Subsonic (Ooma's in particular) cause they can be seen on the same screen as the Lumaflies' discharge.
Click to expand...
Oomas pretty much attack you at extreme speed when you pop them. The rest don't appear in the same rooms as lumaflies, thus they can't be used. We can see similar stuff in other games like Sonic and Mario ect.
Eden_Warlock99 said:
The Lumaflies discharge is also an environmental hazard that's meant to be dodged by passing through the flies when they're not doing it. It’s not really an attack you can conventionally dodge.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you can dash away from it in tandem with the discharge
 
IDK3465 said:
Ok, I just found a great example from one of the trailers of some players and a chicken running in tandem with the vibrations, so hopefully that dispels a lot of the worries about it not being consistent. There's also this feat of a bee flying down a waterfall very fast, as well as this one of a camel being comparable to an arrow, so those are also probably worth calculating at some point, along with the horse feat mentioned earlier

I'm at school rn (surprise), but I will go about calculating these later today
Click to expand...
Did it
 
IDK3465 said:
Did it
Click to expand...
I added a new end to the second calc since I realized that the 5.2305 m value was from the arrow's speed plus the camel's speed due to being fired from it, so the speed the bow added was technically less than the horse's

Don't know if it'll get accepted, but I figured it would be worth adding anyway
 
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