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Intro
(credits to @Rakih_Elyan, @JustANormalLemon, and @Oliver_de_jesus for helping to look over some of this)If you know anything about me and my contributions to this wiki, you'd know I've been working on Minecraft for quite some time now. I've been doing calcs, participating in CRTs, and, overall, just trying my best to support the verse, and over that time, I have found out just how absurdly outdated and lacking our profiles for it really are. What was once just a simple plan to update some stats here and there and change the scaling a bit has devolved into an almost year-long endeavor to revitalize and update the entire verse, everything from scaling chains, to canon, to cosmology, to hax, everything, and I mean everything, needs to be changed.
And now, after over a year of waiting, I think I'm finally ready to start with this bullshit, so here we go:
First things first, as the title implies, this CRT will focus on updating everybody's LS and Speed, per new calcs and other junk.
As some of you may know, there was a previous discussion on how Steve's LS should be treated on-site following the introduction of spears to the game. It ultimately concluded that we agreed any item not explicitly stated to hold mass in Steve's hand shouldn't be used for calcs or scaling of any kind, thus invalidating our current calcs, which use gold blocks and armor.
If you wish to see why this was decided upon, please look through that thread, but in short, blocks and other items are frequently shown to be weightless, small, abstractions of themselves, not just in-game but more importantly, in lore. We frequently see Minecraft characters not really place blocks physically so much as they just kinda vaguely "summon" them wherever they happen to point, and thanks to the Max Brooks novels, we know that items seemingly shrinking when dropped isn't just a game mechanic or artstyle thing, IT'S CANONICALLY WHAT THEY DO. This fact is further exemplified by the spear, which is too heavy for Steve to lift for long periods despite being a mere fraction of the weight of a full gold block, dispelling many of the previous notions that the blocks Steve holds are actual full-sized cubic meters rather than just the abstracted versions we see in-game, making the only items we can be sure to hold mass are weapons/tools like the spear.
Upon creating this new rule, I decided to make some brand-new calcs using the mace instead of gold blocks because they have explicit weight statements, and (as explained in the comments of those calcs), Dalesean accepted the mace's mass to be 358.89456, possibly 2406.75 kg. (Note: while I will be arguing for Mobs having higher jump speeds later on, it was decided not to use those for the LS calcs due to resulting in significant outliers, so no Class M Steve any time soon, sorry)
As such, the new LS ratings will be as follows:
As some of you may know, there was a previous discussion on how Steve's LS should be treated on-site following the introduction of spears to the game. It ultimately concluded that we agreed any item not explicitly stated to hold mass in Steve's hand shouldn't be used for calcs or scaling of any kind, thus invalidating our current calcs, which use gold blocks and armor.
If you wish to see why this was decided upon, please look through that thread, but in short, blocks and other items are frequently shown to be weightless, small, abstractions of themselves, not just in-game but more importantly, in lore. We frequently see Minecraft characters not really place blocks physically so much as they just kinda vaguely "summon" them wherever they happen to point, and thanks to the Max Brooks novels, we know that items seemingly shrinking when dropped isn't just a game mechanic or artstyle thing, IT'S CANONICALLY WHAT THEY DO. This fact is further exemplified by the spear, which is too heavy for Steve to lift for long periods despite being a mere fraction of the weight of a full gold block, dispelling many of the previous notions that the blocks Steve holds are actual full-sized cubic meters rather than just the abstracted versions we see in-game, making the only items we can be sure to hold mass are weapons/tools like the spear.
Upon creating this new rule, I decided to make some brand-new calcs using the mace instead of gold blocks because they have explicit weight statements, and (as explained in the comments of those calcs), Dalesean accepted the mace's mass to be 358.89456, possibly 2406.75 kg. (Note: while I will be arguing for Mobs having higher jump speeds later on, it was decided not to use those for the LS calcs due to resulting in significant outliers, so no Class M Steve any time soon, sorry)
As such, the new LS ratings will be as follows:
- The Player: 6.0982 to 29.6654 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
- Min. Stat Equines: 9.7853 to 34.8370 Metric Tons (Class 10, possibly Class 50)
- Ghasts: 15.6960 to 20.3115 Metric Tons (Class 25 for both)
- Foxes: 18.8253 to 122.2097 Metric Tons (Class 25, possibly Class K)
- Max. Stat Equines: 61.1578 to 217.7315 Metric Tons (Class 100, possibly Class K)
- Passive Mobs and those that don't have much in terms of actual LS feats, like Silverfish or Creepers, will all be rated as either equal to their IRL equivalents, or down to just straight up Unknown if there is no comparable animal to place them next to.
- Passive Mobs that can be ridden by the Player, like Striders or Llamas, should at least scale to the Player's LS due to being able to carry them on their backs while also jumping at equal or higher speeds (so technically, they don't actually scale, they just perform a better feat that I'm too lazy to calculate)
- Regular hostile Mobs, like Zombies or Skeletons, will scale to the Foxes' LS due to them being consistently portrayed as rather weak compared to most hostile Mobs, constantly being frightened by Players and Wolves, and only willing to hunt after small passive Mobs like Chickens or Fish. Also, most hostile Mobs comparable to Zombies should generally be stronger than the Player.
- Spider webs will scale to the Max. Stat Equines' LS due to being able to slow down and hinder their movement
- Boss Mobs like the Ender Dragon and Warden, as well as Mobs like the Iron Golem or Ravager, will upscale from the LS of the Max. Stat Equines for casually overpowering them and flinging them away without any effort
Disagree: 0
Neutral: 0
Ok, now for the more... controversial part
In the Caves and Cliffs update, Sculk and, more specifically, Sculk Sensors were introduced to the game, bringing vibration and sound-based redstone mechanics for use in contraptions and other junk.
Now, why is this important exactly? Well, the vibrations Sculk Sensors detect aren't just represented as sounds, but they are fully visible in-game as wave particles that move at an apparent speed of 20 m/s. Since these are constantly confirmed to be vibrations/sound waves, we can conclude they're Mach 1 or 343 m/s, which means they, and anything that moves in tandem with them, have to be moving at 17.15 times faster than their supposed in-game speed.
I have already made an accepted calculation a WHILE ago, updating the Endermen's feat of dodging projectiles, and it resulted in an astounding Mach 36, or High Hypersonic.
That being said, given how high this is compared to Minecraft characters' other appearances, I'm gonna keep it as a possibly rating and replace the main feat they scale to be the speed of arrows instead, since players consistently dodge and block them in the trailers. Arrows go at around 3.15 blocks per tick when shot by crossbows, while Sculk soundwaves go at only 1, so Mach 3.15, or Supersonic+ reactions/combat speed minimum.
Also, (although it hasn't been accepted yet), @JustANormalLemon made another calc for the travel speeds of various Mobs, hovering around the Subsonic range. Lemon's calc is even further supported by this feat of Steve and Alex running in tandem with the Warden's sonic boom, which I calculated and had accepted at 39.0041 m/s, or a little over baseline Subsonic.
As such, I propose that all Mobs will now have their travel speeds scale proportionally to Sculk vibrations, roughly putting them all around Subsonic. Anyone who scales to the Players/Endermen (aka, literally every other hostile/neutral Mob) will have their combat/reaction speed upgraded to Supersonic+, possibly High Hypersonic, and the Warden's sonic boom will be a blitz level above that speed for reasons mentioned in this calc.
Also, this is minor, but can we get this CRT for the Riptide enchantment's speed accepted at some point? Thank you :]
In the Caves and Cliffs update, Sculk and, more specifically, Sculk Sensors were introduced to the game, bringing vibration and sound-based redstone mechanics for use in contraptions and other junk.
Now, why is this important exactly? Well, the vibrations Sculk Sensors detect aren't just represented as sounds, but they are fully visible in-game as wave particles that move at an apparent speed of 20 m/s. Since these are constantly confirmed to be vibrations/sound waves, we can conclude they're Mach 1 or 343 m/s, which means they, and anything that moves in tandem with them, have to be moving at 17.15 times faster than their supposed in-game speed.
I have already made an accepted calculation a WHILE ago, updating the Endermen's feat of dodging projectiles, and it resulted in an astounding Mach 36, or High Hypersonic.
That being said, given how high this is compared to Minecraft characters' other appearances, I'm gonna keep it as a possibly rating and replace the main feat they scale to be the speed of arrows instead, since players consistently dodge and block them in the trailers. Arrows go at around 3.15 blocks per tick when shot by crossbows, while Sculk soundwaves go at only 1, so Mach 3.15, or Supersonic+ reactions/combat speed minimum.
Also, (although it hasn't been accepted yet), @JustANormalLemon made another calc for the travel speeds of various Mobs, hovering around the Subsonic range. Lemon's calc is even further supported by this feat of Steve and Alex running in tandem with the Warden's sonic boom, which I calculated and had accepted at 39.0041 m/s, or a little over baseline Subsonic.
As such, I propose that all Mobs will now have their travel speeds scale proportionally to Sculk vibrations, roughly putting them all around Subsonic. Anyone who scales to the Players/Endermen (aka, literally every other hostile/neutral Mob) will have their combat/reaction speed upgraded to Supersonic+, possibly High Hypersonic, and the Warden's sonic boom will be a blitz level above that speed for reasons mentioned in this calc.
Counterarguments
There are a couple of arguments against using Sculk waves, but luckily, none of them really hold up to scrutiny, so I'll quickly go through them.- "But the Warden's sonic boom is literally an undodgeable hit-scan projectile in-game!"
- Sonic booms refer to the sound made by objects that are going faster than the speed of sound, not at it. A strong enough shockwave can absolutely still hit a character with Supersonic+ or higher reactions, as there's no sort of speed limit for them. Hell, in some rare cases, they can even be near light speed, so a shockwave/sonic boom being faster than and able to hit a Supersonic+ or High Hypersonic character isn't an anti-feat for their speed by any stretch of the imagination.
- "You can't dodge arrows in Minecraft, so scaling characters' reaction speed at or above them makes no sense."
- This argument was one of the main ones issued against a previous upgrade for the Endermen's speed. I have already argued against it here, but to repeat a bit of what I said: video games frequently have characters operate at MUCH lower levels than what their lore would suggest, Sonic struggling to finish a level in under a few minutes, fodder enemies taking down end-game players, characters being incapable of destroying small structures or walls, etc., it's basic game mechanics. This is a similar case: we have an explicitly stated feat for a character, highlighted in both lore and gameplay, as well as confirmation that the player character is fast enough to fight and defeat this other character in combat physically, despite the other character being able to react at his speed continuously and on instinct. To top this off, in the trailer animations, we are frequently shown that Players are only hit by arrows when caught off-guard or simply too overwhelmed by the number of enemies to defend themselves properly, and whenever they do notice arrows, they can easily block and/or dodge them. I don't know about you, but in my opinion, all this should be enough to overcome a somewhat minor gameplay contradiction. Maybe you can make an argument that they shouldn't be a near blitz level above the arrows, since they can occasionally struggle with not getting hit. Still, there's really no reason to put such a definitive cap on the verse beyond how dodging tends to be depicted in the trailers. It's not like the MCU, where characters are getting shot down by bullets 24/7 and have hundreds of statements of them operating at subsonic speeds, the ONLY thing against Steve scaling to arrows is that he sometimes struggles to dodge them when distracted. Hell, not even this debunk holds up all that well since we see IN ONE OF THE TRAILERS that Players can dodge the Warden's sonic boom after building up enough distance, something which is a full-on hitscan in comparison to arrows shot by bows that can literally blitz all Mobs at short distances, INCLUDING Endermen, so it should be fair to at least put Steve in the same rough ballpark, if not fully comparable to the Endermen in terms of speed.
- "Llama spit and arrows can't be that fast, that's not realistic!"
- Yeah, so are blocks floating in the air, water buckets that can fit infinite amounts of water, and cows reaching adulthood in less than an hour. If Minecraft doesn't care about realism in its physics or mechanics, neither shall we. Besides, the Llama loogies and arrows display a lot of weird properties on their own, like hitting Vex despite them being intangible, or dealing damage to enemies capable of tanking explosions, and are specifically acknowledged in the Mobestiary as alarmingly fast and forceful, given it's just saliva. In short, this is just a big appeal to reality when the media in question has no actual interest in realism, moving on.
- "What about the speedometer in the glide minigame? That uses in-game speed!"
- That's from Legacy Console Edition, which got replaced by Bedrock and never got the update that added Sculk Sensors, so the devs couldn't have accounted for the vibrations' speed even if they'd wanted to, so it really doesn't count.
- "There's this one achievement that explicitly says you need to be going at 40 m/s, the same as the in-game speed."
- First off, the literal name of the achievement is "Super Sonic", aka, the term used for something that goes faster than sound, which wouldn't make much sense if it really was just 40 m/s. Secondly, Mojang added that before Sculk Sensors. It'd be REALLY confusing if Mojang said "just go fast teehee :]" when these are supposed to be the actual achievement requirements for the Player, not an in-lore document like the Mobestiary or whatever, but meant to serve as a legitimate guide to 100% the game, no shit it's gonna use in-game metrics to help players out.
- "In the Mobestiary, it says the days are 20 minutes long, same as real time, so this is incorrect."
- Seems promising at first, but in practice, it just doesn't hold up to use this to downgrade verses heavily, or else SO many games that feature timers or clocks would need to be downgraded to absurdly low levels, even though that's rarely the case in how they're presented moment-to-moment. Take, for example, BotW/TotK Link: if this same logic is applied to him, he'd be 1/60th of the speed he actually appears to go at in-game due to the clock operating at 1 in-game hour per 1 real-world minute, which like... no? Even ignoring the blatant light dodging from AoC, we literally see Link in-game run at the same speeds as foxes and other very quick animals. MF definitely isn't meant to be slower than a literal insect. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that long-term timeframes, like day-night cycles, rarely align with the short-term, moment-to-moment timeframes in video games. You can show a character dodging lightning, but still have the clock in the corner operating at a measly one second per second in the background. Days lasting 20 minutes both in and out of game shouldn't be seen as a sign that literally EVERYTHING in Minecraft is also happening in real time, 'cause very few games actually like to do that and frequently have inconsistent timeframes in this regard.
- "Phantoms verbatim travel over 20 blocks/second, aka, the in-game speed."
- Ok, I'll admit, this one is actually a valid anti-feat, but given how it's only a single statement compared to DOZENS of others from the same site confirming that the waves Sculk Sensors detect are indeed soundwaves, I think we can safely chalk this up to Duncan Geere just trying to give players a sense of what the Mob's like in-game rather than a definitive lore statement about how fast Phantoms can fly.
Disagree: 3 [2 staff] (@ActuallySpaceMan42, @Saqphire, @Armorchompy (With passive/mundane animal Mobs scaling))
Neutral: 5 [1 staff] (@DavidTPPM, @AyOgUyS, @Armorchompy (With combat-oriented Mobs scaling), @LandonTheGuy, @OrangeFR)
yup, I'm not done just yet
These 3 calcs got accepted, 2 for the Dungeons Heroes' speed, and another for the Corrupted Beacon's attack speed.
The beam-dodging will upgrade all the Dungeons bosses' combat/reaction speed to Sub-Relativistic (maaaayyybee even travel speed? idk, that one's a bit of a stretch), and the Heroes'/Heart of Ender's attack speed with the Corrupted Beacon will be upgraded to Massively FTL.
You may be wondering two things right now: 1. "Will this affect the base game characters?" and 2. "Will you add the 4-B calc in this CRT?"
The answer to both is no.
1. Because all the enemies in the game were explicitly empowered/summoned by the Orb of Dominance/Heart of Ender's magic, so even if the game's canon (which it sorta is), the Sub-Rel stuff won't have any reason to scale to base game Mobs
2. Because that's gonna require the establishment of a UES for the Orb's magic for it to actually scale to anyone meaningfully, and that's under big revisions rn, so we gotta wait before even trying to tackle that mess
These 3 calcs got accepted, 2 for the Dungeons Heroes' speed, and another for the Corrupted Beacon's attack speed.
The beam-dodging will upgrade all the Dungeons bosses' combat/reaction speed to Sub-Relativistic (maaaayyybee even travel speed? idk, that one's a bit of a stretch), and the Heroes'/Heart of Ender's attack speed with the Corrupted Beacon will be upgraded to Massively FTL.
You may be wondering two things right now: 1. "Will this affect the base game characters?" and 2. "Will you add the 4-B calc in this CRT?"
The answer to both is no.
1. Because all the enemies in the game were explicitly empowered/summoned by the Orb of Dominance/Heart of Ender's magic, so even if the game's canon (which it sorta is), the Sub-Rel stuff won't have any reason to scale to base game Mobs
2. Because that's gonna require the establishment of a UES for the Orb's magic for it to actually scale to anyone meaningfully, and that's under big revisions rn, so we gotta wait before even trying to tackle that mess
Disagree: 1 (@Robot972 (disagrees with Sub-Rel, thinks lightning needs to be recalced))
Neutral: 3 (@Saqphire, @DavidTPPM (I think), @AyOgUyS)
Also, since I plan on doing like a f*ckton more with the verse, I also propose that all our Minecraft pages be given the outdated tag since there's just... so much to cover (mainly scaling chain stuff cause HOLY SHIT it's so bad rn)
And, that's it, you can now kill me for this if you want to :]
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