- 35,060
- 41,650
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Type Moon Revival CRT relating high tiers and a few current relevant profiles - Part 1
- Thread starter ShinMaximillion
- Start date
- 21,644
- 13,560
Guys this is a staff thread, only comment when you have permission to comment.
- 52,577
- 46,787
That momen when the thread's been out for a month but it's been completely fine because staff are STILL reading the abomination that is Nasuverse cosmology
- 21,644
- 13,560
Guys I literally said stop commenting if you don't have staff permission, it's not a normal CRT anymore. If you don't have permission to comment and you keep this up I will start applying thread bans. Have patience and wait for the staff to comment on the CRT. I'm at the Planetary Logoi section so please wait, it's not the end of the world if the thread doesn't end ASAP.
- 21,644
- 13,560
Alright finally got done reading through the whole CRT, took longer than I expected since some of the scans weren't loading and I needed some outside help to better understand the lore (side note: you guys need to format your CRTs better because it became nigh impossible to follow what argument was pushing for which tier).
With that being said, I'm not sure I follow how the Throne of Heroes itself would be a 1-A realm going off the scans presented. It's mentioned that it's beyond the bounds of space and time, with this chart showing it being above timelines in relation to it being beyond space and time, it sounds more like the Throne of Heroes should just be a Low 1-C realm rather than outright 1-A since just being beyond space and time doesn't qualify for 1-A, you need something far more explicit than that for it to be 1-A.
The Age of Gods having access to True Magic and it being tied to the Root itself, with the Root being the pinnacle of dimensional theory I can see the 1-A arguments there, and going off how Celestial beings are superior to gods with Arcueid as an example with A-Reis being creatures that came from the Inner Sea and are more mysterious than Age of Gods magic, and ORT in general is the top dog of the Nasuverse, I can see the scaling from there. I don't particularly see Unified Language being scaled physically to 1-A, as it reaching the depths of the roots seem more like a range feat rather than something of channeling a higher form of power to use.
I will say this does raise some questions because the Root is accepted as tier 0 on the wiki, and if these beings can outright channel the power and different characters can get stronger forms of power than true magic or have even greater forms of power from the Root, this feels like a massive anti feat for the root being tier 0 given it's being challenged in general and isn't the almighty power of the verse. Unless there's some other form of the root I'm not familiar with, this should downgrade the Root to 1-A if we are pushing for these buffs for the top tiers.
I'm not seeing Divine Spirits being 1-A for their concepts when several statements imply they're just outright inferior to gods, with them channeling Authority can outright kill them and that's considered on a level of a god and they're the arguments I've seen with the more consistent 1-A backing with the Root.
Holy and Phantasmal beasts being 1-A I can see if their mystery is comparable to true magic so no complaint there.
Grand servants I won't comment on that since that's saved for later.
Imaginary Number Space I'm not following how that's 1-A. If it's going off the whole "coordinates can't track in the inner sea" argument, I don't see how that pertains to it being beyond dimensionality as it can mean a bunch of different things as opposed to higher dimensional planes of existences or something else. Plus I'm unsure how the INS is comparable to the Inner sea itself unless I missed something that compared both to each other.
With that being said, I'm not sure I follow how the Throne of Heroes itself would be a 1-A realm going off the scans presented. It's mentioned that it's beyond the bounds of space and time, with this chart showing it being above timelines in relation to it being beyond space and time, it sounds more like the Throne of Heroes should just be a Low 1-C realm rather than outright 1-A since just being beyond space and time doesn't qualify for 1-A, you need something far more explicit than that for it to be 1-A.
The Age of Gods having access to True Magic and it being tied to the Root itself, with the Root being the pinnacle of dimensional theory I can see the 1-A arguments there, and going off how Celestial beings are superior to gods with Arcueid as an example with A-Reis being creatures that came from the Inner Sea and are more mysterious than Age of Gods magic, and ORT in general is the top dog of the Nasuverse, I can see the scaling from there. I don't particularly see Unified Language being scaled physically to 1-A, as it reaching the depths of the roots seem more like a range feat rather than something of channeling a higher form of power to use.
I will say this does raise some questions because the Root is accepted as tier 0 on the wiki, and if these beings can outright channel the power and different characters can get stronger forms of power than true magic or have even greater forms of power from the Root, this feels like a massive anti feat for the root being tier 0 given it's being challenged in general and isn't the almighty power of the verse. Unless there's some other form of the root I'm not familiar with, this should downgrade the Root to 1-A if we are pushing for these buffs for the top tiers.
I'm not seeing Divine Spirits being 1-A for their concepts when several statements imply they're just outright inferior to gods, with them channeling Authority can outright kill them and that's considered on a level of a god and they're the arguments I've seen with the more consistent 1-A backing with the Root.
Holy and Phantasmal beasts being 1-A I can see if their mystery is comparable to true magic so no complaint there.
Grand servants I won't comment on that since that's saved for later.
Imaginary Number Space I'm not following how that's 1-A. If it's going off the whole "coordinates can't track in the inner sea" argument, I don't see how that pertains to it being beyond dimensionality as it can mean a bunch of different things as opposed to higher dimensional planes of existences or something else. Plus I'm unsure how the INS is comparable to the Inner sea itself unless I missed something that compared both to each other.
- 470
- 307
Well, I can't say I agree with your entire evaluation but I'm glad you aren't buying the "Earth is 1-A because of self-contemplation/because xyz is stated to transcend time and space" line of reasoning because that's the bullshit I've been trying to argue against this whole thread.
Would it be accurate to say that your view is this?:
-we could upgrade True Magic (as well as all Mystery comparable to True Magic) to 1-A via True Magic being tied to the Root, but only if we downgrade the Root to 1-A since the True Magic/Root tier is gradated and therefore inherently not Tier 0
-nothing else gets upgraded to 1-A
Last edited:
- 9,115
- 9,966
My initial thoughts are still the same. I don’t see clear proof that these realms qualify for 1-A. The proposal doesn’t show true qualitative superiority, meaning one level treats another as basically nonexistent or like fiction. That kind of gap is required for 1-A. They don’t prove a complete separation where the lower level can’t reach or affect the higher one at all.
There’s also confusion with how True Magic, its users, and the Root are related. If True Magic can be used or accessed by characters, then it raises questions about whether it’s really something completely beyond everything else. That part needs to be explained more clearly before any 1-A rating can be justified.
There’s also confusion with how True Magic, its users, and the Root are related. If True Magic can be used or accessed by characters, then it raises questions about whether it’s really something completely beyond everything else. That part needs to be explained more clearly before any 1-A rating can be justified.
- 15,204
- 22,456
being backed by a tier 0 is not an anti-feat, True Magic granted by the Root isn't anti-feat. It is true that in order to get True Magic, you need to get to the Root but not go it entirely, most True Magic users get it via get close to it and then return. Because if you go to the Root literally, you are dissolved back to the root, dissolved back to tier 0 isn't an anti-feat either
- 21,644
- 13,560
@Vietthai96 Them being backed by a tier 0 isn’t the point I’m referring to, it’s the fact that the power they’re gifted by from the Root fluctuates and can be challenged given one of the characters can supposedly get to a power that far surpasses True Magic itself or other characters having more power from the Root when it’s supposed to be an even power grant for a tier 0 power to my knowledge.
@Firestorm808 Pretty sure the main argument that’s being pushed for 1-A is the Root being the pinnacle of dimensional theory, but given how this is stemming from a power source that’s rated tier 0 on the wiki right now that’s something that should be addressed.
@Firestorm808 Pretty sure the main argument that’s being pushed for 1-A is the Root being the pinnacle of dimensional theory, but given how this is stemming from a power source that’s rated tier 0 on the wiki right now that’s something that should be addressed.
- 9,115
- 9,966
I don't think there was a formal discussion on the actual Tier of True Magic and the degree of distinction from the Root itself. We can't scale things from True Magic without doing this first.
- 15,204
- 22,456
1. The Root actually didn't grant power, i worded it badly in my previous post that character backed by a tier 0, anyway they wasn't backed by the Root actually, people get the True Magic by trying to understand the Root, the act of reaching the Root is both trying to understand it and go back to it, and they can't even actually reach the Root, they can only get close to and then return, because when you truly reach the Root, you go back to being a part of it. Also, what magus trying to reach was the Akashic Record not The Root did absolute nothing, because it is true emptiness further behind the Akashic Record, iirc the record is where all information about the verse is stored, including supernatural phenomenon (or supernatural abilities), True Magic was derived from there. So True Magic isn't the Root power or even Akashic Record power, it is derivation from the record
2. True Magic being challenged isn't even relevant, because it isn't even a tier 0 power, and i don't think OP want to give True Magic tier 0 potency, and like point 1, the Root didn't backing up anyone
Anyway for a time being, i agree with your point about INS isn't 1-A, as i have the same concerns as well.
- 470
- 307
Well that just brings up more issues. If True Magic is not fully backed by the Root, then by how much? To a High 1-A extent? A 1-A extent? Maybe it's not even outerversal at all. Maybe it's just planet level, or island level or something. We can't just guess that it's 1-A.
Now, OP did bring up some points about it being beyond time and space and whatnot but you guys evidently aren't convinced by that lmao. The only 1-A scaling you guys seem to agree with is the Root being at the pinnacle of dimensionality but that's obviously about the Root and not True Magic.
Well, OP already wrote a shit ton trying to justify True Magic being 1-A apart from it being connected to the Root in some way. It seems the issue is that you just don't agree with any of it.
- 15,204
- 22,456
?????. Bro, what are you even on about? I don't understand? From what i could see, it seem True Magic is argued by OP to be 1-A, which is not even relevant to the Root. Unless the OP start claiming True Magic is tier 0 or High 1-A then it could be a problem, but evidently it isn't. And i'm still have yet to even talking about True Magic scaling
And where did you get the idea that i agree with 1-A Root scaling from it being at the pinnacle of dimensional theory?
- 21,644
- 13,560
@Vietthai96 This scan says that true magic is something that directly comes from the Root itself as opposed to it being a manuscript like how Magecraft is, so idk if this is supposed to mean they're channeling a record cause it implies they're just directly getting power from the actual Root itself. True Magic not being tier 0 atm isn't the concern, it's the fact the arguments stem from it coming from the Root that it'd scale that high, making future revisions with this in mind questionable to say the least so that's why I want to know how this is going to be addressed since we'd have to argue the Root is weaker than it's current stats if we're to accept this.
@Firestorm808 well that's what the current discussion is about, hence why in my post I asked if there's anything I missed, and if not the Root should be downgraded if we're trying to scale True Magic to the Root given the scans provided.
@Firestorm808 well that's what the current discussion is about, hence why in my post I asked if there's anything I missed, and if not the Root should be downgraded if we're trying to scale True Magic to the Root given the scans provided.
- 470
- 307
The other staff don't seem to agree with any of the justifications OP gave for True Magic being 1-A is all I'm saying.
That's not what I mean. I was just pointing out that the only evidence of 1-A (OR higher, since the staff seem to be onboard with tier 0 root anyways) the staff seem to agree with only applies to the root and doesn't even apply to True Magic anyways.
- 15,204
- 22,456
When spoke of the Root, it isn't the true essence, emptiness but is something lower than it. So in the scan when the character spoke of the Root, it isn't the true emptiness but something difference, completely inferior. This is the very idea of the Apophatic Theology/Negative Theology that the Root follow and why it is tier 0. Apophatic Theology is a theology that describe God by what isn't even God
Oke, though i have yet to touch the True Magic scaling part in the OP so say anything about it, but it shouldn't have any relevancy about the Root tier unless OP start claiming it have tier 0 potency
- 9,115
- 9,966
Looking at the text, I haven't seen any demonstrable properties of ontological superiority for 1-A True Magic.
Getting 1-A True Magic by downscaling from a Tier 0 Root is a different discussion.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #218
Before I begin, do note I have exams ongoing, so my activity/responses may be delayed/fluctuating anyway, reading all of the above is simply overstating the active role Root has in its creation, ngl, that's the first issue.
The second issue? Flattening different levels of abstractions into one, to conclude on the nature of the Root.
Since "getting" to or having a path to the Root can mean either having the latent capacity or having the capacity to connect with the Root, which is different from "things actually get there as if it desires a return back to itself through things".
The last issue is that it undersells how narratively Type Moon characters describe the Root within the Root. That's the point with stories like Kara no Kyoukai with Araya’s goal for human salvation by reaching the Root, the Fate Series with the Holy Grail War as the means to an end for reaching the Root. They are stories about how the infinite and the Absolute 'One' influences the contingent/existence, not how the contingent influences the Infinite.
The bit about everything being prepared is a conjunction about how all causes swirl within it.
Simply speaking, everything is prepared as a cause, not as an effect, within the Root. And because there is no effect, there's nothing that becomes, and so there's nothing. Everything is already prepared, and so there's nothing to develop further.
The Spiral analogy used to describe the Root stems from Taijitu or the Taiji diagram, whereby the Supreme Ultimate is simultaneously the Ultimate Void (Taiji Er Wuji).
If the cyclical structure of every facet of existence means everything ensues from and returns to itself. In the same way, when Taiji moves, it generates yang, and when the movement reaches its extremity, it returns to stillness.
The Root, however, is the Supreme Ultimate, and so exists before the very self-cycling and self-transitioning dualities that are called Yin and Yang.
Which is quite literally why the entire history of the world, and the sum of its causal sequences, are but the dreams called the records of the world, the Akashic Records. Take into account, too, the description that it is a record of the history of the world, including the records of the present.
This is an obvious indicator of how the Root is not something that lends fulfillment/perfects to things, as if it were creating itself to perfect itself.
Which is why it is frankly referred to as "the beginning and end of everything", since I explained earlier how, as 'observation of everything', rather than observe or be observed. It is the sole non-dual that can function as the causal closure of all things. Not because it is causal closure, but causal closure is closed under its ontology.
Type Moon, however, does something far cleaner and more radically 'Tier 0', mind you, because I know there's a common intuition around here that Tier 0 contains "virtually" events as if they were discrete segments that exist simultaneously.
For simplicity's sake, that's fine, but that's not the case with Type Moon. The process of creation described in Taijitu is not about temporal causation, as in what is "first in time and what comes before and after another".
And hopefully, this will be the last time I repeat this.
It addresses the structure of ontological stratification, as the way in which causality is ordered.
For example, when we say "everything is produced by the Root", we don't mean "the Root does something actively, by volition and will" to maintain and to produce existence.
And I already explained just a page before, how yin and yang are stated to have separated not because they are opposites, but because separation allows for the facilitation of most attributes. And the two forms, yin and yang, are stated for that reason to contain the attributes.
If what comes after the source already contains most attributes, then what does the source contain? It can't have more attributes, because that is already contained by what comes after it.
And it can't be less, because each stage of Taijitu, as you divide yin and yang into the four forms (greater yin and greater yang, and lesser yin and lesser yang), contains fewer attributes because they are further fragments of the initial two modes.
It is『』because as Touko says, it cannot be defined by the standards of what comes after it, because they are ultimately just finite. They describe the Root within the Root, through what is already encompassed by it.
Allow me to reiterate this- the Swirl of the Root cannot. Will not. Has not. And it doesn't make sense whatsoever, having read that, to think it exhausted or changed by what it creates. When the intention behind the words like 'cause' as applied to the Root is completely antithetical to that.
But no, True Magic doesn't involve drawing power from the Root whatsoever; it just seems so because one becomes Root-like as a result of direct participation in the Root.
Heck, there are many examples of this too in mysticism, assimilation into the One in Neoplatonism/Christian Philosophy, self-reversion of Alaya in Yogachara, return to the Ultimate Void/Wu/Wuji in Neo-Confucian and Daoism, attaining enlightenment in Buddhism.
They all have one thing in common, in that they don't import a return to the individual, as if they reached that goal, they used locomotive means to sit inside the Root and be given some divine providence. They all begin the stage of union with a Tier 0 by simply looking inward. This was already covered in the Tier 0 thread, where Ultima said the Root was the most intentional depiction of a Tier 0.
Inward contemplation, all beings equally do the same thing when reaching or using True Magic; they contemplate/look inward, a practice in mysticism to omit the propensity for discrimination/dualising. The reason why True Magic seems so absolute is that it is described from within the perspective of the laws of the human world and knowledge of humanity, which it completely defies.
But it is only as transcendent as it could be, solely to just discriminative knowledge. For example, say, knowledge in science, for example, is based on the scientific model, which requires the necessity of observations as truth conditions. Gravity is x, y, for that is consistent with observation, but the act of observation in doctrines like this is already within Ryougi duality. Because the act of seeing or observing another thing that is external to you means that thing is inherently not-you and so dual with 'you', because of logical negation.
This is what I've been trying to emphasise, there's an intentional explanation here that is, I think, obvious if you suspend reading everything here as if it should be power scaled, but as it should be understood.
I quite frankly value that over whatever tiers this would get by miles anyway. But space, time, quantity (measure) as subjects presuppose a system of causality, knowledge and language that is already transcended by these things. And as subjects, they are things that can only be applied to extensional things (things with extension and form).
Space numerically separates the extension things have in space: discrimination. Time numerically separates the extension things have over an order of events: discrimination. Quantity numerically separates everything metaphysically with extension: discrimination.
Looking inward and letting go of thoughts like Aoko does here, for example=there's no longer room for separation between subject and object.
The 'I' requires phenomenal and conceptual difference between it and the 'You', thus, to look inward is to omit the 'You/Object', leaving no separation between it and the 'I'.
You see nothing, and simultaneously see nothing as yourself. That's why I went to great lengths to also explain Type Moon's views in this regard, by explaining the different aspects of the Soul, Karma, and how Origins tie into this. For example, in Buddhism, it can simply be the means for seeing the truth of reality (Tathātā).
Concepts of space, time, causality (operates under unmediated causality: mystery as common sense and the ineffable as the way of causality) and even human language.
Ontologically, the Swirl of the Root is described as a place where nothing, not even life, exists, and the only thing that exists there is an initial cause. There are no effects within the Root, only causes; for all intents and purposes, you can think of it as "causes return to themselves" therein. These causes or initial emerge from the Root, before unfolding begins, because these causes mark the immemorial of becoming. There are Origins, primal patterns and way of your existence (Li), which emerges as a flow that gives shape to your:
Yet in spite of that, in losing that, Shirou Emiya has the latent potential to manifest an entire Reality Marble. As a commoner amongst modern-day magi, to put this into perspective.
Large family generations modify and breed to produce more prolific successors and get close to the Root. Shirou Emiya is not from such a family; he's just a commoner, close to their Origin.
The True Reality of the Celestial Sphere, which is True Magic itself. Alternatively, you could also gain psychic powers (people like Tohno Shiki with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and, by extension, Ryougi Shiki) that give you the depth of perception of Nature/Celestial Sphere/Celestial Egg. Importantly, even these beings are not "Seeing the Root" as well; even Ryougi Shiki, who can quite literally see death, something on par with True Magic, can only catch a glimpse of the Root, not seeing the entire thing:
She can see death because her Li/Origin/primordial pattern or order from Chaos/Emptiness/Non-duality:
What we do know is that humanity, as they know the world, defines the world, and the world through Alaya a reflection of that. Currently withdrawn to the Eternal Inner Sea of the Planet are the laws of the Age of Gods.
Tdlr, things to consider that I'll elaborate on tomorrow. All of these factors are why the Inner Sea itself is True Magic as existence (the Inner Sea itself is a mystery), that's why its inhabitants, like Divine Spirits and Phantasmal, are True Magic existences, because they exist there and are simultaneously aspects of nature or nature's thinking activity. This issss also what Divine Spirits are as concepts, their true form that is spiritual in nature that exists in the Inner Sea.
Divine Spirits as concepts are described as "symbols of authority", authorities are True Magic (miracles) with causal power unconditioned by human knowledge and the world as humanity knows it. They exist in a realm of True Magic itself, and are their authorities, for their existence itself is a symbol of the authority of the Celestial Egg/Celestial Sphere/Celestial Planet. And so, their existence as concepts, too, is True Magic because their existence is their authority.
Furthermore, whether or not True Magic has hierarchies is not exactly relevant here. It is common, accordingly, to these doctrines that things relate to that domain of causality, language, and mode of knowing: the domain of True Magic itself. So, descriptions of the radical nature of True Magic, because they are describing what it is in relation to the human world/material world. And in relation to that, all types of True Magic are completely removed from the frameworks of the human world, the world as humanity knows it, and the knowledge of humanity simpliciter.
Shiki (yin) and Shiki (Taiji), for example, both operate under that domain of causality, but to varying levels.
Shiki has the ability to see the death that exists inherently within the process of formation of something, likened to catching a glimpse of the Root. An ability already outlined to be True Magic level in itself, and Shiki (Taiji) can relate to that domain of causality to an even higher level.
Because with her, she appears so close to the Root that she no longer is "a subject relating to the Root (not vice versa too)" but "the Root", and so views reality herself too as a dream.
Within that dream... But no, her power will be brought to light in the thread to separate keys of the Root as suggested to us by Ultima. Since it was also agreed that the Root proper≠Akashic Records.
That's all for now, I'll elaborate more on the domain of causality stuff, suitable for 1-A≠antithetical to the idea that the domain of causality has hierarchies, later.
For now, I'll dip, nauseating migraines and exams on my end.
The second issue? Flattening different levels of abstractions into one, to conclude on the nature of the Root.
Since "getting" to or having a path to the Root can mean either having the latent capacity or having the capacity to connect with the Root, which is different from "things actually get there as if it desires a return back to itself through things".
The last issue is that it undersells how narratively Type Moon characters describe the Root within the Root. That's the point with stories like Kara no Kyoukai with Araya’s goal for human salvation by reaching the Root, the Fate Series with the Holy Grail War as the means to an end for reaching the Root. They are stories about how the infinite and the Absolute 'One' influences the contingent/existence, not how the contingent influences the Infinite.
The Root has no effects within itself, because the Root is not a "thing" or place properly speaking. It is simply where all causes swirl, such that everything is prepared and therefore there's nothing.
The bit about everything being prepared is a conjunction about how all causes swirl within it.
Simply speaking, everything is prepared as a cause, not as an effect, within the Root. And because there is no effect, there's nothing that becomes, and so there's nothing. Everything is already prepared, and so there's nothing to develop further.
The Spiral analogy used to describe the Root stems from Taijitu or the Taiji diagram, whereby the Supreme Ultimate is simultaneously the Ultimate Void (Taiji Er Wuji).
If the cyclical structure of every facet of existence means everything ensues from and returns to itself. In the same way, when Taiji moves, it generates yang, and when the movement reaches its extremity, it returns to stillness.
Yin and Yang being complementary dual patterns that transition into one another because the potential is within both.
The Root, however, is the Supreme Ultimate, and so exists before the very self-cycling and self-transitioning dualities that are called Yin and Yang.
Which is quite literally why the entire history of the world, and the sum of its causal sequences, are but the dreams called the records of the world, the Akashic Records. Take into account, too, the description that it is a record of the history of the world, including the records of the present.
This is an obvious indicator of how the Root is not something that lends fulfillment/perfects to things, as if it were creating itself to perfect itself.
Because if the entire history of the world, past, present and future, exists simultaneously. And those within time, in the present, also already have their future determined by that dream of history. And so, everything remains unchanging within the Root.
Which is why it is frankly referred to as "the beginning and end of everything", since I explained earlier how, as 'observation of everything', rather than observe or be observed. It is the sole non-dual that can function as the causal closure of all things. Not because it is causal closure, but causal closure is closed under its ontology.
Type Moon, however, does something far cleaner and more radically 'Tier 0', mind you, because I know there's a common intuition around here that Tier 0 contains "virtually" events as if they were discrete segments that exist simultaneously.
For simplicity's sake, that's fine, but that's not the case with Type Moon. The process of creation described in Taijitu is not about temporal causation, as in what is "first in time and what comes before and after another".
And hopefully, this will be the last time I repeat this.
It addresses the structure of ontological stratification, as the way in which causality is ordered.
For example, when we say "everything is produced by the Root", we don't mean "the Root does something actively, by volition and will" to maintain and to produce existence.
Because we are told the Root cannot be called information nor a record properly speaking, cannot have will, intention, nor direction, "it just is" and cannot be broken down into anything further than what it is. Because it is nothing but what it is, there is no "duality", and so no negation nor affirmation of anything other than this "thing is"
The Swirl of the Root, rather than just "virtually containing yin and yang", exists entirely ontologically prior to the division between yin and yang.
And I already explained just a page before, how yin and yang are stated to have separated not because they are opposites, but because separation allows for the facilitation of most attributes. And the two forms, yin and yang, are stated for that reason to contain the attributes.
If what comes after the source already contains most attributes, then what does the source contain? It can't have more attributes, because that is already contained by what comes after it.
And it can't be less, because each stage of Taijitu, as you divide yin and yang into the four forms (greater yin and greater yang, and lesser yin and lesser yang), contains fewer attributes because they are further fragments of the initial two modes.
It is『』because as Touko says, it cannot be defined by the standards of what comes after it, because they are ultimately just finite. They describe the Root within the Root, through what is already encompassed by it.
Allow me to reiterate this- the Swirl of the Root cannot. Will not. Has not. And it doesn't make sense whatsoever, having read that, to think it exhausted or changed by what it creates. When the intention behind the words like 'cause' as applied to the Root is completely antithetical to that.
It's not as controversial as you think, formally speaking, but from a neutral perspective, the concern is understandable. We can't all waste our lives reading some obscure shit on metaphysics and mysticism, hehe.
But no, True Magic doesn't involve drawing power from the Root whatsoever; it just seems so because one becomes Root-like as a result of direct participation in the Root.
Heck, there are many examples of this too in mysticism, assimilation into the One in Neoplatonism/Christian Philosophy, self-reversion of Alaya in Yogachara, return to the Ultimate Void/Wu/Wuji in Neo-Confucian and Daoism, attaining enlightenment in Buddhism.
They all have one thing in common, in that they don't import a return to the individual, as if they reached that goal, they used locomotive means to sit inside the Root and be given some divine providence. They all begin the stage of union with a Tier 0 by simply looking inward. This was already covered in the Tier 0 thread, where Ultima said the Root was the most intentional depiction of a Tier 0.
Inward contemplation, all beings equally do the same thing when reaching or using True Magic; they contemplate/look inward, a practice in mysticism to omit the propensity for discrimination/dualising. The reason why True Magic seems so absolute is that it is described from within the perspective of the laws of the human world and knowledge of humanity, which it completely defies.
But it is only as transcendent as it could be, solely to just discriminative knowledge. For example, say, knowledge in science, for example, is based on the scientific model, which requires the necessity of observations as truth conditions. Gravity is x, y, for that is consistent with observation, but the act of observation in doctrines like this is already within Ryougi duality. Because the act of seeing or observing another thing that is external to you means that thing is inherently not-you and so dual with 'you', because of logical negation.
This is what I've been trying to emphasise, there's an intentional explanation here that is, I think, obvious if you suspend reading everything here as if it should be power scaled, but as it should be understood.
I quite frankly value that over whatever tiers this would get by miles anyway. But space, time, quantity (measure) as subjects presuppose a system of causality, knowledge and language that is already transcended by these things. And as subjects, they are things that can only be applied to extensional things (things with extension and form).
Space numerically separates the extension things have in space: discrimination. Time numerically separates the extension things have over an order of events: discrimination. Quantity numerically separates everything metaphysically with extension: discrimination.
Looking inward and letting go of thoughts like Aoko does here, for example=there's no longer room for separation between subject and object.
The 'I' requires phenomenal and conceptual difference between it and the 'You', thus, to look inward is to omit the 'You/Object', leaving no separation between it and the 'I'.
You see nothing, and simultaneously see nothing as yourself. That's why I went to great lengths to also explain Type Moon's views in this regard, by explaining the different aspects of the Soul, Karma, and how Origins tie into this. For example, in Buddhism, it can simply be the means for seeing the truth of reality (Tathātā).
Anyway, as I said before, I believe, True Magic doesn't involve drawing power from the Root whatsoever, as we know the Root has "nothing" of that nature to be drawn out of. It just seems so because one becomes Root-like as a result of direct participation in the Root; this is also why, as you saw, True Magic was also assigned the label『』not because they are not the same ontologically.
But they are all equally removed from the conceptual framework of the human world/material world/surface texture completely.
To say True Magic was something that suspends concepts of space, time, and position for it is『』was not suggesting True Magic was Tier 0. It was suggesting that True Magic transcends the language and concepts only of the human world, and so on. It just does so to such an extent that the language used to describe the material world simply renders『』to True Magic.
Concepts of space, time, causality (operates under unmediated causality: mystery as common sense and the ineffable as the way of causality) and even human language.
It is made clear here that True Magic is not a singularity like the Root but simply what completely transcends human wisdom and the world as humanity knows it.
Ontologically, the Swirl of the Root is described as a place where nothing, not even life, exists, and the only thing that exists there is an initial cause. There are no effects within the Root, only causes; for all intents and purposes, you can think of it as "causes return to themselves" therein. These causes or initial emerge from the Root, before unfolding begins, because these causes mark the immemorial of becoming. There are Origins, primal patterns and way of your existence (Li), which emerges as a flow that gives shape to your:
They represent the indivisible essence of existence, existing as a continuous thread that encompasses all of your reincarnation and instantiations, something that exists before "you" as a subject and object:
Aligning yourself with that pattern is what a path to the Root is.
Some people participate naturally closer to their Origin, and to show for it, they possess powers, most of them being psychic powers, that deviate them from natural laws:
For example, Shirou Emiya possesses (directionality) the Origin of "Sword", and because his magical attribute Origin became strongly expressed as a result of close proximation of Avalon. Which changed his very magical attribute too into "Sword", he can't use regular or simpler magecraft because his magic attribute is deviant. He basically sucks at conventional magecraft.
Yet in spite of that, in losing that, Shirou Emiya has the latent potential to manifest an entire Reality Marble. As a commoner amongst modern-day magi, to put this into perspective.
Large family generations modify and breed to produce more prolific successors and get close to the Root. Shirou Emiya is not from such a family; he's just a commoner, close to their Origin.
The True Reality of the Celestial Sphere, which is True Magic itself. Alternatively, you could also gain psychic powers (people like Tohno Shiki with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and, by extension, Ryougi Shiki) that give you the depth of perception of Nature/Celestial Sphere/Celestial Egg. Importantly, even these beings are not "Seeing the Root" as well; even Ryougi Shiki, who can quite literally see death, something on par with True Magic, can only catch a glimpse of the Root, not seeing the entire thing:
Literally described as seeing the microcosm of the Root, simply a glimpse of it. But because her connection to the Root derives from a being even closer: the Taiji that is Shiki (Void), the aforementioned sees deeper inward so as to look deeper than regular Shiki.
She can see death because her Li/Origin/primordial pattern or order from Chaos/Emptiness/Non-duality:
So, if you were to ask me how things reach the Root. Is because things were never external to the Root to begin with. Now, if you were to ask, how do you go about reaching the Root, then it is stated that there's no real method to that. You just do, and a testament to it being about being in alignment with your primal pattern (Origin/Li) is the fact that it is Fate that leads you to that attainment.
And Fate (not a pun... unfortunately) is a medium of expressing that primal pattern:
When that time comes, you won't even know you reached it because to reach it is to see it about unseen, and to think about thoughtlessness.
It can only be approached in a state of unknowing, as seen with Aoko, who lets go of her thoughts and looks inward. But in that state of ignorance, you cannot perceive it anyway, as you've approached it. They produce causes without thinking, seeing, without reference to the external world, without human speech, and those causes mirror their processes. We know True Magic is not exhausted by its loss in the material world, they remain incomprehensible.
What we do know is that humanity, as they know the world, defines the world, and the world through Alaya a reflection of that. Currently withdrawn to the Eternal Inner Sea of the Planet are the laws of the Age of Gods.
Where common sense (knowledge) and mystery were non-dual/identical, knowledge itself was mystery because it was immediate. Not filtered by karma and the world of discrimination like those managed by Alaya.
Tdlr, things to consider that I'll elaborate on tomorrow. All of these factors are why the Inner Sea itself is True Magic as existence (the Inner Sea itself is a mystery), that's why its inhabitants, like Divine Spirits and Phantasmal, are True Magic existences, because they exist there and are simultaneously aspects of nature or nature's thinking activity. This issss also what Divine Spirits are as concepts, their true form that is spiritual in nature that exists in the Inner Sea.
Divine Spirits as concepts are described as "symbols of authority", authorities are True Magic (miracles) with causal power unconditioned by human knowledge and the world as humanity knows it. They exist in a realm of True Magic itself, and are their authorities, for their existence itself is a symbol of the authority of the Celestial Egg/Celestial Sphere/Celestial Planet. And so, their existence as concepts, too, is True Magic because their existence is their authority.
Furthermore, whether or not True Magic has hierarchies is not exactly relevant here. It is common, accordingly, to these doctrines that things relate to that domain of causality, language, and mode of knowing: the domain of True Magic itself. So, descriptions of the radical nature of True Magic, because they are describing what it is in relation to the human world/material world. And in relation to that, all types of True Magic are completely removed from the frameworks of the human world, the world as humanity knows it, and the knowledge of humanity simpliciter.
Shiki (yin) and Shiki (Taiji), for example, both operate under that domain of causality, but to varying levels.
Shiki has the ability to see the death that exists inherently within the process of formation of something, likened to catching a glimpse of the Root. An ability already outlined to be True Magic level in itself, and Shiki (Taiji) can relate to that domain of causality to an even higher level.
Because with her, she appears so close to the Root that she no longer is "a subject relating to the Root (not vice versa too)" but "the Root", and so views reality herself too as a dream.
Within that dream... But no, her power will be brought to light in the thread to separate keys of the Root as suggested to us by Ultima. Since it was also agreed that the Root proper≠Akashic Records.
That's all for now, I'll elaborate more on the domain of causality stuff, suitable for 1-A≠antithetical to the idea that the domain of causality has hierarchies, later.
For now, I'll dip, nauseating migraines and exams on my end.
- 52,577
- 46,787
For the record on 1-A Swirl of the Root: We had like 4 threads dedicated to that shit across multiple years. I have no horse in the tier 1/0 race because, y'know, not my circus on the higher tiers in the tiering system.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #220
Alright, I'm done with my exams for the day, and my migraines, which worsened after going through all that, are starting to be stabilised. So I'll go the extra mile.
I'm very curious now, what do you think is an example of "clear proof" that something isn't 1-A exactly?
If we want to arrive at "clear proof of 1-A, then starting with your example of why it's not, by appealing to what is not 1A to begin with, but a metaphor of it is bad practice.
What is "true qualitative superiority" actually? And the difference between a qualitative superiority and the transcendence these things have? 1A doesn't treat "lower realms as non existent" in any literal case. Not even a Tier 0 does, not only I, but all of us Type Moon supporters need you to be clearer on what it is that you mean by the proposed characters and placeholders not qualifying for "true qualitative superiority"
What's the difference between the activity of 'recording' being accredited with being the dreamer of all things, and all things dream of it and "true qualitative superiority"?
An activity that applies to the Akashic Records and Arcueid?
Because really, if your best understanding of 1-A is just based on a few metaphors about it. Then are you sure about being so firm on this not being 1-A?
I got stuck in a few pages arguing about 1-A with a few people who didn't have a sufficient understanding of it, and that... Well, that didn't seem the most productive hihi.
So, if there's no evidence for these metaphors that aren't even descriptions of 1-A, just "it is like", let's assume, as you say, this is what's required to be 1-A. What about those statements?
So rather than just responding in jest, it's better to just ask these questions to see if I can at least get an exhaustive reason for your position.
Saying this unqualified applies to tiers below 1-A, so what is the difference between, say, a higher-dimensional plane having the inability to be reached and completely affected by something lower-dimensional?
And 1-A being in this sense too? What does it mean for 1-A to be unreachable and unaffected by things below it?
What does it mean to be unreachable and unaffectable such that you're 1-A rather than not?
Point 1: There's just a conflation of the degree of causality of True Magic, just seemingly being absolute, and it simply being because it is connected to the Root.
Point 2: Which breeds this distortion and confusion about the relation between the Root and True Magic, I can't see what else it would be, considering the part about this not implying relations within the Root. And how the actual mechanism of True Magic works, under the context of Type Moon Buddhism.
Whereof I explicitly say these are not relations within the Root, but how things relate to the Root through consciousness, participation btw. I absolutely do not mean to be rude if it sounds like that at all, but like, damn, bro.
With all due respect, courtesy.
Every radical statement about True Magic has nothing by itself to do with merely just "being connected to the Root".
There's A LOT of explanatory power behind its transcendence, that has nothing to do with the Root's ontology because the Root is far above those qualifications lol.
Anywho, I'll send the last bits that I said I would yesterday, later today. It won't be long. I hope so. Hopefully these migraines don't start hitting me back.
Firestorm, I mean... You said the same in the Root thread, too. You even suggested it didn't fit for 1A without elaborating further in the thread all the way to the end.
I'm very curious now, what do you think is an example of "clear proof" that something isn't 1-A exactly?
And just to be clear.
If we want to arrive at "clear proof of 1-A, then starting with your example of why it's not, by appealing to what is not 1A to begin with, but a metaphor of it is bad practice.
What is "true qualitative superiority" actually? And the difference between a qualitative superiority and the transcendence these things have? 1A doesn't treat "lower realms as non existent" in any literal case. Not even a Tier 0 does, not only I, but all of us Type Moon supporters need you to be clearer on what it is that you mean by the proposed characters and placeholders not qualifying for "true qualitative superiority"
What's the difference between the activity of 'recording' being accredited with being the dreamer of all things, and all things dream of it and "true qualitative superiority"?
An activity that applies to the Akashic Records and Arcueid?
Because really, if your best understanding of 1-A is just based on a few metaphors about it. Then are you sure about being so firm on this not being 1-A?
I got stuck in a few pages arguing about 1-A with a few people who didn't have a sufficient understanding of it, and that... Well, that didn't seem the most productive hihi.
So, if there's no evidence for these metaphors that aren't even descriptions of 1-A, just "it is like", let's assume, as you say, this is what's required to be 1-A. What about those statements?
- Arcueid dreams of the human world, through the activity of recording that maintains it, btw.
- Zelretch sees the entire universe as fiction to write on because of his True Magic, which makes him operate under recorded universe laws, btw.
- True Magic itself is described as treating everything as if it were a sheet of paper, btw.
- True Magic being the conclusion of measure and form? Being the conclusion of notions of space, time, and position?
- True Magic being completely removed from human knowledge and the world as humanity knows it? Including its quantitative defining characteristics of reality. As if their direct saying it ends all form and measure/quantitative explicitly wasn't enough.
So rather than just responding in jest, it's better to just ask these questions to see if I can at least get an exhaustive reason for your position.
Can't affect a higher one in what sense? What is this complete separation btw?
Saying this unqualified applies to tiers below 1-A, so what is the difference between, say, a higher-dimensional plane having the inability to be reached and completely affected by something lower-dimensional?
And 1-A being in this sense too? What does it mean for 1-A to be unreachable and unaffected by things below it?
What does it mean to be unreachable and unaffectable such that you're 1-A rather than not?
Yeah... That's really great and really irrelevant, honestly. Absolutely nowhere in the proposal, conclusion, or summaries will you find me saying 'related to the Root and connected to it and so instantly 1-A'. Why does this matter? Why would the justifications about only True Magic, with scans that only describe True Magic, have their truth condition be dependent on the rating of the Root, really?
Point 1: There's just a conflation of the degree of causality of True Magic, just seemingly being absolute, and it simply being because it is connected to the Root.
Point 2: Which breeds this distortion and confusion about the relation between the Root and True Magic, I can't see what else it would be, considering the part about this not implying relations within the Root. And how the actual mechanism of True Magic works, under the context of Type Moon Buddhism.
Whereof I explicitly say these are not relations within the Root, but how things relate to the Root through consciousness, participation btw. I absolutely do not mean to be rude if it sounds like that at all, but like, damn, bro.
Is 1-A completely beyond everything now? Or did I miss something? What is actually being evaluated here in particular? A Tier 0 or something? Also, can 1-A just not be attained (accessed) anymore? Why does that matter? Were the listed reasons for 1-A that True Magic is beyond everything? I think if you're gonna evaluate, at least meet the contentions where they are, but half of this was just vague posting about how this doesn't fit 1-A, metaphors not what 1-A, and just addressing contentions that aren't there, let alone relevant to 1-A.
With all due respect, courtesy.
Every radical statement about True Magic has nothing by itself to do with merely just "being connected to the Root".
There's A LOT of explanatory power behind its transcendence, that has nothing to do with the Root's ontology because the Root is far above those qualifications lol.
Anywho, I'll send the last bits that I said I would yesterday, later today. It won't be long. I hope so. Hopefully these migraines don't start hitting me back.
- 21,644
- 13,560
@ShinMaximillion If it doesn't draw power from the root then can you explain what this scan is supposed to mean? Because it sounds to me like True Magic is drawing power from it if it literally comes from the Root itself.
The Daoisms or Buddhisms stuff you're mentioning, does the franchise ever make any blatant mentions in the series or from interviews that The Root is meant to be based off that or is this just interpretations? Because having actual flat out mentions of this can help a lot with the arguments.
What does that even mean? "As it should be understood, not how it should be power scaled", The CRT I'm trying to understand it and I see some arguments for 1-A but you're not doing a good job of formatting the entire CRT in a way that makes non-Nasu fans able to understand it.
You explained some things but a lot of the stuff with Procession or other terminologies you listed don't have any scans to remotely mention this being name dropped in verse and I see souls being able to form for celestial objects, but everything else you're not providing scans to explain why this should be interpreted such a way.
I'd go on but I've been told the CRT is being remade so I mostly wanted to respond to some particular comments that caught my eye, so if the CRT's being remade I'll reframe from responding to the whole thing.
The Daoisms or Buddhisms stuff you're mentioning, does the franchise ever make any blatant mentions in the series or from interviews that The Root is meant to be based off that or is this just interpretations? Because having actual flat out mentions of this can help a lot with the arguments.
What does that even mean? "As it should be understood, not how it should be power scaled", The CRT I'm trying to understand it and I see some arguments for 1-A but you're not doing a good job of formatting the entire CRT in a way that makes non-Nasu fans able to understand it.
You explained some things but a lot of the stuff with Procession or other terminologies you listed don't have any scans to remotely mention this being name dropped in verse and I see souls being able to form for celestial objects, but everything else you're not providing scans to explain why this should be interpreted such a way.
I'd go on but I've been told the CRT is being remade so I mostly wanted to respond to some particular comments that caught my eye, so if the CRT's being remade I'll reframe from responding to the whole thing.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #222
Yeah, regarding the True Magic stuff, I did neglect it for more ontological accounts since it's a phenomenological thing first, and an ontological thing secondarily.
Now, regarding them having direct mentions? Yeah, I can bring that up too. I don't value those mentions alone, though; they are quite often more unreliable than just showing how, by definition, these terms apply to the thing-in-itself.
I'm sure people will have an easier time believing something is Tier 0 because the way in which it is accounted for necessitates by designation that it be Tier 0.
And I'm sure people will have a harder time believing something is simply Tier 0 because it is just directly called Actus Purus or the Way.
So to say "a being looks inward" and demonstrate that to be the case has more potent preponderance, logically speaking.
But Divine Spirits being called logoi, that I can cite, yes, the Daoism stuff for the Root is already there. The Akashic Records is called the Supreme Ultimate, and yin-yang flow from it, Alaya stuff, I think I already cited directly being mentioned, and even therein I explained the mechanisms behind it. Then I am pretty sure I did after, cite Ryougi Shiki having the highest connection to the Root because she has what is formally regarded as the purest form of consciousness within Yogachara Buddhism: Amala-vijñāna, Pure Consciousness.
Wherein the duality of subject and object is completely extinguished. This is partly why she often says "I may be the Root itself (The Swirl aspect, not the Tier 0)" and "I am a part of it, but doesn't that make us the same existence".
It's because even when she's not exactly it, because she's at pure consciousness and can only look inward. She cannot help but refuse phrasing the Root as dual with it, so even as a part of it, because her form of consciousness (Amala-vijñāna) omits discrimination/dualities. She concludes that as part of it, she is it.
But you can give me examples of the parts that were not directly mentioned that I used.
1. Oversimplifying the context and flattening nuance.
2. Or the thing being explained, as complicated as it is
I mean, I know a few competent people who fell into this trap of flattening nuance, and even I used to. And I got a lot of things fundamentally wrong, I mean, why do you think for 3 to 5 years people thought a path to the Root was literally a portal when we see otherwise? Another example was doing this to such an extent that the inverse didn't even make sense. That's less complicated than the power system, and it was still accepted on this wiki by supporters that
Archetype Earth > Prime Roa > Crimson Moon=Archetype Earth
Literally, the chain scale is even being described this way in the profiles. For the context, Roa only had a portion of Arcueid/Archetype: Earth's power, which made him one of the strongest vampires of the time, so people took the 'strongest vampire' bit and used it to argue that Original Roa was above both Crimson Moon, who is Archetype Earth. Even though all it meant was that Roa's a vampire on the level of an Ancestor, who are the apex (strongest) vampires of the species.
There was a whole era, where the inverse went like The Mystic Eyes of Death perception (comes from connecting to the Root, btw) > Roa's reincarnation > the Root's erasure (what the eyes of death are too, btw)
Because everybody (including me back then) thought that in death souls go back to fly around in the Root like it was a cosmic toilet or recycle bin.
But look, now some of us can stand and explain what a path to the Root is without flattening the source material. Because some people find more comfort going under the assumption that, because you don't understand it, it is contradictory (Marshadow and a certain someone else).
And to get out of that comfort you just have to have the willingness to understand, because I genuinely promise you there's not a lot to understand in simpler words. We've seen how that goes, but even if the source material is complicated, with the willingness to just get out of your comfort zone to search a little deeper, even in the bag of what you don't.
This doesn't apply to you, though, obviously, because you're not a Type Moon fan, but it remains true that "simplify" by itself is just not a solution and historically has never been a solution. What I can do, however, is explain my explanation in simpler terms, breaking it down further and with more examples. But lo and behold, it makes the explanation lengthy. But I can do my absolute best to summarise, none of this is that easy tbfh.
But I think the explanation can be cut short if you tell me which specific parts you are interested in hearing about first, so I can start with that.
And nah, the thread isn't gonna be remade yet, at least not now, since as I've pointed out, I doubt it would serve to do much. We're waiting on Ultima and staff evaluations, too. If it feels like too much of a mess, then we can start the whole slate clean, but generally, we've put too much effort into the current thread to let it go down the drain.
So feel free to go on with addressing your concerns if there are any. I'd love to help you clear up anything if there's something that needs to be cleared. Let me know which specific parts you're interested in hearing out about first, if there are any.
PS. Regarding the scan you linked
This is from Chapter 9 (SCARRED, Scar Red) of Mahoyo; it's a mistranslation. We also have a problem of translations that oversimplify stuff. The actual raws just talk about True Magic connecting to the Root, not coming out of it. A bunch of people helped with linking the scans, so I probably missed that one.
Now, regarding them having direct mentions? Yeah, I can bring that up too. I don't value those mentions alone, though; they are quite often more unreliable than just showing how, by definition, these terms apply to the thing-in-itself.
I'm sure people will have an easier time believing something is Tier 0 because the way in which it is accounted for necessitates by designation that it be Tier 0.
And I'm sure people will have a harder time believing something is simply Tier 0 because it is just directly called Actus Purus or the Way.
So to say "a being looks inward" and demonstrate that to be the case has more potent preponderance, logically speaking.
But Divine Spirits being called logoi, that I can cite, yes, the Daoism stuff for the Root is already there. The Akashic Records is called the Supreme Ultimate, and yin-yang flow from it, Alaya stuff, I think I already cited directly being mentioned, and even therein I explained the mechanisms behind it. Then I am pretty sure I did after, cite Ryougi Shiki having the highest connection to the Root because she has what is formally regarded as the purest form of consciousness within Yogachara Buddhism: Amala-vijñāna, Pure Consciousness.
Wherein the duality of subject and object is completely extinguished. This is partly why she often says "I may be the Root itself (The Swirl aspect, not the Tier 0)" and "I am a part of it, but doesn't that make us the same existence".
It's because even when she's not exactly it, because she's at pure consciousness and can only look inward. She cannot help but refuse phrasing the Root as dual with it, so even as a part of it, because her form of consciousness (Amala-vijñāna) omits discrimination/dualities. She concludes that as part of it, she is it.
But you can give me examples of the parts that were not directly mentioned that I used.
Give me all examples of this; they can't be rectified if I don't know them after all.
Um... which scans were not provided to explain why something ought to be interpreted in such a way? Which way, too? That was not provided with the scans for?
Well, Nasuverse fans don't exactly understand their own verse. I doubt there's any form of formatting that can help the case whatsoever without either
1. Oversimplifying the context and flattening nuance.
2. Or the thing being explained, as complicated as it is
I mean, I know a few competent people who fell into this trap of flattening nuance, and even I used to. And I got a lot of things fundamentally wrong, I mean, why do you think for 3 to 5 years people thought a path to the Root was literally a portal when we see otherwise? Another example was doing this to such an extent that the inverse didn't even make sense. That's less complicated than the power system, and it was still accepted on this wiki by supporters that
Archetype Earth > Prime Roa > Crimson Moon=Archetype Earth
Literally, the chain scale is even being described this way in the profiles. For the context, Roa only had a portion of Arcueid/Archetype: Earth's power, which made him one of the strongest vampires of the time, so people took the 'strongest vampire' bit and used it to argue that Original Roa was above both Crimson Moon, who is Archetype Earth. Even though all it meant was that Roa's a vampire on the level of an Ancestor, who are the apex (strongest) vampires of the species.
There was a whole era, where the inverse went like The Mystic Eyes of Death perception (comes from connecting to the Root, btw) > Roa's reincarnation > the Root's erasure (what the eyes of death are too, btw)
Because everybody (including me back then) thought that in death souls go back to fly around in the Root like it was a cosmic toilet or recycle bin.
But look, now some of us can stand and explain what a path to the Root is without flattening the source material. Because some people find more comfort going under the assumption that, because you don't understand it, it is contradictory (Marshadow and a certain someone else).
And to get out of that comfort you just have to have the willingness to understand, because I genuinely promise you there's not a lot to understand in simpler words. We've seen how that goes, but even if the source material is complicated, with the willingness to just get out of your comfort zone to search a little deeper, even in the bag of what you don't.
This doesn't apply to you, though, obviously, because you're not a Type Moon fan, but it remains true that "simplify" by itself is just not a solution and historically has never been a solution. What I can do, however, is explain my explanation in simpler terms, breaking it down further and with more examples. But lo and behold, it makes the explanation lengthy. But I can do my absolute best to summarise, none of this is that easy tbfh.
But I think the explanation can be cut short if you tell me which specific parts you are interested in hearing about first, so I can start with that.
And nah, the thread isn't gonna be remade yet, at least not now, since as I've pointed out, I doubt it would serve to do much. We're waiting on Ultima and staff evaluations, too. If it feels like too much of a mess, then we can start the whole slate clean, but generally, we've put too much effort into the current thread to let it go down the drain.
So feel free to go on with addressing your concerns if there are any. I'd love to help you clear up anything if there's something that needs to be cleared. Let me know which specific parts you're interested in hearing out about first, if there are any.
PS. Regarding the scan you linked
This is from Chapter 9 (SCARRED, Scar Red) of Mahoyo; it's a mistranslation. We also have a problem of translations that oversimplify stuff. The actual raws just talk about True Magic connecting to the Root, not coming out of it. A bunch of people helped with linking the scans, so I probably missed that one.
Official TLs having mistakes in Type Moon isn't anything new; this is seen often in FGO NA, Melty Blood Type Lumina, Tsukihime Remake (wasn't as bad) every now and then, but it was especially bad in Mahoyo.
I once recall having come across a JP Type Moon fan in JP Twitter spaces a while back who pointed out a few misTLs in Mahoyo
He stated that the overall translations were plain wrong, strange, and the overall result of the translations gave a completely different image when compared to the source RAWs.
He also pointed out made-up sentences by the official TL.
There's this one mistranslation where they translated "something" as "thong", Aoko and Alice having their names switched. With my aforementioned example, too, I'm sure you can find out tons of things about it yourself if you search a bit; it isn't exactly something that's as unknown after all.
There are bits of self-contemplation, too, which were translated differently in the official version to outright omission. I'm sure we all get the point by now.
I once recall having come across a JP Type Moon fan in JP Twitter spaces a while back who pointed out a few misTLs in Mahoyo
He stated that the overall translations were plain wrong, strange, and the overall result of the translations gave a completely different image when compared to the source RAWs.
He also pointed out made-up sentences by the official TL.
There's this one mistranslation where they translated "something" as "thong", Aoko and Alice having their names switched. With my aforementioned example, too, I'm sure you can find out tons of things about it yourself if you search a bit; it isn't exactly something that's as unknown after all.
There are bits of self-contemplation, too, which were translated differently in the official version to outright omission. I'm sure we all get the point by now.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #223
Also, if you missed this or something something, two explanations ago on this page, I sent this:
And this:
This is also.. Well, directly again. Of course, 2 responses ago.
Annata is just no-self/ego in Buddhism, and absolute freedom is reached by extinguishing it. Which is why that supposed absolute freedom whereby one sees the world for what it is, without discrimination, is the designation/definition of Annata-vijnana in Type Moon.
This was also two responses on this page, by the way.
I can easily find more examples of this just on page 5, within the summary. Especially considering that the summary barely referenced any doctrine other than that of Yogachara when explaining Alaya-vijnana. Something that, on the side of its karmic threads, is also explicitly the precondition for distance from the Root. And I already covered that, not only that, I'm sure I cited Alaya... Well being explicitly called Alaya-vijnana from Buddhism.
So, given that, I do think it is very important that I get the list of those examples. That way, it becomes easier to see what is actually to be rectified and what is, perhaps, a lack of understanding of the given doctrines in question.
- 9,115
- 9,966
I’ll clarify my position using the Tiering System FAQ, since that defines what "qualitative superiority" to the site actually means.
The FAQ states:
Treating lower realms as nonexistent or fiction
I am not saying it has to literally be fiction. That is just an example used in the FAQ.
The actual requirement is that the lower level becomes irrelevant or insignificant in comparison, because the higher level exists in a completely different way.
Right now, the proposal does not show that.
Dreaming and recording
Saying something is a "dream" or "record" does not prove qualitative superiority by itself. It needs to be clearly shown that the lower reality is only a product of the higher one in a way that makes it ontologically insignificant, not just described that way.
These can still exist within the same system, especially if the "dreamed" world can interact with, return to, or be part of the same structure as the higher level.
So unless it is demonstrated that the lower world is truly just a construct with no independent standing relative to the higher one, this does not qualify as qualitative superiority.
Zelretch seeing the universe as fiction
This would only qualify if it is literal reality fiction transcendence and meets the site requirements for that.
That requires a clear separation where the lower world is truly treated as fiction and not just described that way.
True Magic statements
Statements like:
But that is not enough for qualitative superiority unless it also proves:
The FAQ states:
The standard is not based on metaphors. It is based on demonstrable concrete requirements.
Treating lower realms as nonexistent or fiction
I am not saying it has to literally be fiction. That is just an example used in the FAQ.
The actual requirement is that the lower level becomes irrelevant or insignificant in comparison, because the higher level exists in a completely different way.
Right now, the proposal does not show that.
Dreaming and recording
Saying something is a "dream" or "record" does not prove qualitative superiority by itself. It needs to be clearly shown that the lower reality is only a product of the higher one in a way that makes it ontologically insignificant, not just described that way.
These can still exist within the same system, especially if the "dreamed" world can interact with, return to, or be part of the same structure as the higher level.
So unless it is demonstrated that the lower world is truly just a construct with no independent standing relative to the higher one, this does not qualify as qualitative superiority.
Zelretch seeing the universe as fiction
This would only qualify if it is literal reality fiction transcendence and meets the site requirements for that.
That requires a clear separation where the lower world is truly treated as fiction and not just described that way.
True Magic statements
Statements like:
- "treats everything like paper"
- "ends space and time"
- "beyond human knowledge"
But that is not enough for qualitative superiority unless it also proves:
- Complete separation from the system
- No interaction from below
- No way to reach it
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #225
????
If you're not speaking literally about realms, seeing lower realms as fiction, you're speaking figuratively. So I don't get the point of denying that it was metaphors, by proposing a false dichotomy between metaphors and "concrete requirements", the aforementioned can still be clothed in metaphors.
The Inner Sea and the Surface Texture are categorically different in ontology, btw, I've covered this before. If the Inner Sea were bound by some geometric or topological measure, then reaching it wouldn't require liberation from ontological constraints like 'physical constraints'.
Because it would imply that those ontological constraints are secondary, and geometry and topology are primary, such that if you just stack up dimensions, by necessity, you'll reach it. Because ultimately, the contrary interpretation to this just implies that.
However, if it is the case that those ontological constraints are primary, then indeed the Inner Sea cannot be reached according to its ontology. True Magic is fine for now, it's easily demonstrable to be as such, too, and I haven't yet addressed it as such first. But you didn't talk about the Inner Sea, so what's your position on this? What is contrary to the Inner Sea being ontologically different from the surface texture by substantiality (ontology), not quantity?
The Inner Sea has a condition of reaching it, and otherwise it is absolutely (lit. eternally) unreachable, btw.
This condition is liberation from physical constraints; without it, you can migrate to the higher plane of existence.
Which is why when the sheath of Avalon shuts out all physical interferences, by placing the owner of it in the land of fairies. Again, this is not based on quantity, but on substance dualism:
The Inner Sea of the Planet has a mental substance, as a world of the mind. And the surface texture has a physical substance. Two fundamentally different domains of ontology, with different property instantiations. In reality, the Planet as self-subsistent is mental, and the surface texture is a contingent reality dependent on the mental activity of the Planet within the Inner Sea of the Stars.
This is why every being of surface texture is but a single unbroken dream of the Planet. Although it's less of the act of dreaming producing the surface, and more so, dreaming is the mode in which the surface appears relative to Planetary Cognition.
The Inner Sea is a paradise of the Celestial Sphere, it is where the Souls of Planets slumber. Something that cannot be reached by ordinary means, and something eternally forbidden from intelligent beings antithetical to mystery. As a place beyond human comprehension. The act of dreaming begins from that place where the Soul (Archetype) of the Planet sleeps.
Elementals (True Ancestors, Fairies etc), otherwise known as Nature's sense of touch or sensory organs (Antennae), are essentially a way for the Planet to have some degree of qualitative experience. In other words, they are organs/parts of the mental activities responsible for its capacity to experience within its slumber. But the Archetype is a step higher:
It is the brain of the Planet, the core that begins the act of dreaming through all of those integrated parts. It inherits the Planet's Memories inherent within its Soul, and begins witnessing the surface texture as a dream of itself. And it views the entire surface texture as a dream, across all time. Which is why it knows the history of life, before even mankind is born.
Whilst Divine Spirits/Gods are the aspects of Nature's mental activity. Aspects that represent the "concepts/ideas" of Nature's mental activity. The ideas of love, hate, death, battle, the sky, and the sea.
Their influence as concepts ties them both to abstract (the Reverse Side of the World, an extension of the Inner Sea) and the concrete (the dream of the world), which is universal. The very world is shaped by them wherever their concept has influence. Differences between a God who embodies the same concepts as another are usually just differences in how that same concept can be represented. This is the ontological basis of Divine Spirits.
From the perspective of the world of magecraft, however:
Divine Spirits are symbols of authority that allow them to exercise absolute dominance over conceptual instances they represent of a given concept.
That's why authorities are a manifestation of omnipotence, not omnipotence-as-such, but omnipotence only over a domain of mystery-as-an-idea that is inherent within the mind/brain of nature in the Inner Sea (A realm also stated to be completely beyond human comprehension, and the citation for that is above). That's why they are mystics vastly superior to magecraft, and by extension, human knowledge, since magecraft is just human wisdom and the world as understood by humanity.
The problem is, some instances of a domain have more causal determinacy; for example, the mother of goddess Earth, Tiamat, has one of the highest authorities ever in Mesopotamia. Because she represents the beginning of all creation therein, her authority is of a level that hasn't been seen since the Age of Chaos (an Age before even the Age of Gods).
Her authority was also overriding the authority of other goddesses, and it took us Grand Servant Grand Hassan, Two Divine Spirits Ishtar and Ereskihgalx, and one Demiurge Class Divine Spirit Quetzalcoatl. Implicit within her is also the authority to create worlds.
She herself has been described as having created the world (texture) of the Age of Gods Mesopotamia, and also being the goddess of creation.
And these symbols of authority are mysteries of the natural world as natural phenomena (concepts), that is, things embedded in the natural phenomena. Natural phenomena are a mystery, and a mystery of nature.
Authorities are miracles (True Magic level) that reshape the world itself. They existed only in the Age of Gods, which, unlike regular skills, operate on the premise of "this result can be achieved through these means (in the world's domain of ontology)". But operates on the principle of "it is done simply because there is a [natural] right to do so"; that's why they are regarded as miracles in themselves. They reproduce things impossible in the material/surface world of the laws of physics, like manipulating time, simply because they have the right to do so. The realisation of an impossibility is not exhausted if the impossibility simply occurs because an authoritative subject has the natural right to do so.
These rights are tied to the concepts they represent within the world's mind.
Though the difference between authorities and true magic is that True Magic attains a new mystery that breaks the causality and modality of the surface texture. And authorities break the causality and modality of the human/material/surface world, because they operate from a more fundamental mode of causality and ontology. The mode before dreaming.
Elementals are the sensory organs of the brain, divine spirits are the ideas of the brain, and the brain is the Archetype, the highest elemental. The first two are parts of that same brain-activity, the last is the whole that, through itself and its parts, begins dreaming the surface.
That's why, amongst the Heaven and Earth, everything is connected as one and expressed as merged/unified parts of the Gods. Everything on the surface is a reflection of the ideas of the gods; they are frankly touted as the sources of humanity and their parents as well.
The Inner Sea is the domain of undivided planetary cognition.
Elementals are its sensory-functional extensions.
Divine Spirits are its conceptual determinations.
The Archetype is its centralising cognitive node.
The surface world is the stabilised projection of this system into structured reality.
Authorities operate as domain-absolute assertions within this system, not through a mechanism but through conceptual legitimacy.
Interestingly enough, considering that the entire brain activity and brain structure that is the Inner Sea is something entirely outside human comprehension. As a reality of a superior and fundamental causal and ontological domain, it makes sense that systems of the human world like coordinates don't apply to the Inner Sea:
A reading of the inability to measure coordinates whereof Archetype: Earth came, which is dormant normally in the Inner Sea. Systems to measure coordinates built by mankind are incapable of ascertaining the location of the Inner Sea through those coordinate systems.
The Millennium Castle, the mountain of dreams and the memories of the Planet. Where the Archetype actively dreams of the surface, as within the Inner Sea. It too is incomprehensible to humanity, something to which its location is unknown by the systems they've developed.
Avalon/the Inner Sea itself is a type of True Magic of a much broader domain. The domain of the entire Planet Inner Sea and Surface at once, which is why it can even defend against types of True Magic possessed by individual beings that are a part of it. Beings like Zelretch with Second Magic. And it is also because it is True Magic, that its domain of being and causality is categorically different from that of the surface/human/material texture/world.
True Magic, after all, has more limits than magecraft in that it can accomplish only a single mechanism of a domain. But that's because it is a magical system not fragmented yet, unlike magecraft, which exists like separate streams that are separated from a single greater river, the Swirl of the Root (strictly phenomenological/how the Swirl of the Root is experienced type description). And different traditions like Buddhism, kabbalah, shintoism and Daoism come to be different interpretations of that same single river.
True Magic, on the other hand, is a yet to be interpreted level of causality or domain, with Zelretch, this being Second Magic, the 'proof' of Parallel Worlds and control over such a domain (consequently, because he has full control over that domain, he views that domain as a piece of a book to write on).
It is a single point of light excluded from the concepts of the human/material, surface texture universe.
Which makes sense as to why it cannot have its location measured by coordinate systems. Even True Magic involves crossing walls of dimensions to run towards a terminus of the domain of humanity. And find a new world made up of completely different rules and foundations.
Positioning/coordinates, having lost all of its meaning, has ontological significance here. Because the thing that encodes meaning in Type Moon is a word. Words aren't merely subjective ways of determining the world, but names and words are ways in which the world's meaning is determined itself. We know this to be the case because Kurogiri has the universal language, the unified language. Meant imperfect languages of mankind that came after it, as fragments of it. He came to possess knowledge over them all:
He doesn't just have absolute control over those languages that came after, but also knows everything that has ever emerged to be encoded in those languages, from the very beginning of their conception. The meaning of their histories, their beliefs, cultures, all their events and all languages derived from this language of unity. So, for True Magic to suspend the all meaning of coordinates into dissolution means True Magic herein collapsed the very conceptual basis of position in general. All meaning and hence all conceptual basis of the position as humanity knows it.
Which makes sense, precisely because in the moment True Magic was active here temporarily as ultimate beauty, all languages possessed by mankind couldn't contain what they saw altogether. It was ___ and could not be grasped.
To begin with, the Inner Sea is described as the True Face of the Planet, to which the surface is obviously but an extended projection of that True Face. Seeing as only the surface texture is a mode of reality that is dreamt of from the Inner Sea, because the Inner Sea is the Planet's reality.
The Inner Sea is an ideal world:
One having been removed from the causality of the material/surface texture, being untouched by the cycles of decline and extinction that repeat on the planet's surface.
A world divorced from change, wherein time doesn't pass, for it is outside of time.
Interestingly enough, regarding the whole "it must appear as nothing" because it is different. Holds for the Inner Sea, anyway, and all its inhabitants. From the perspective of the material world, the Celestial Egg, which exists in the Inner Sea, is no different from nothingness because the domain of discourse that builds the foundation of the material world. Cannot judge the existence of the Celestial Egg for what it is, because what it is, is removed from the domain of discourse.
From the perspective of the material world, from which the world expands, is the hollow of the world called the Celestial Egg, which exists in the Inner Sea. And because of the differences in substance and ontic constitution, the Celestial Egg is no different from 'nothingness' in the domain of the human order (the material world, human universe, surface texture, etc.).
When they say the universe expands from it, it's not a scientific perspective of the inflationary cosmology. It represents the universe forming from formlessness.
So, from the perspective of the magecraft theory, which can only judge the world as humanity knows it and the world through human wisdom. The inside of the sealed space encompassed by the Celestial Egg is the world/universe, and outside of it is nothingness. That is, the existence of the Celestial Egg, which is clearly not just "bare nothingness" for it has a reality that is immaterial and mental.
Yet it can't help but be judged as nothingness, because magecraft and the domain of human discourse cannot judge it as anything else in its domain of discourse.
Yet from the perspective beyond the human order domain:
All things are an illusion; Maya. To transcend the illusion is to attain enlightenment, Nirvana. Recognising that all things are Emptiness, so if the transient physical world collapses, there's still hope in attaining that whilst still in the Mooncell.
Examples of bodhisattvas that have attained that level of perception, cognition and enlightenment unsurprisingly are Gods and the Goddesses of the Celestial Sphere, like Amaterasu Okami, the personification of the Sun, beings that are already one with the world/universe. Drawing forth power from the "other side/reverse side".
Which I think makes it clear, alongside the Inner Sea being the Truth/True Face or Skin of the Planet, and the Surface Texture being an illusion or dream. That gods, goddesses, and the like, in general, are transcendent spirits. Are removed from Maya, and the world of illusion that also happens to have fundamentally different ontological foundations. As beings of the Inner Sea and such.
So I can't really tell the difference between this entire thing and what you're describing, so what do you think is the difference?
Lmao, so you're telling me that first seeing a reality as fiction according to the standards of the wiki, is not a metaphor:
Then you tell me it is not literally seeing a lower reality as fiction, but having a distinctive ontological basis:
So ultimately, if it is not literal here, it is figurative, then you ask for evidence of "true reality over fiction".
What are these arbitrary standards that are being created in real time, mind I ask? That you can barely expound on without metaphors and examples?
Oh wow. You're confusing me here. First of all, what is being "truly treated as fiction" and "not just described that way" (??????????).
Those are two different questions, so I expect two answers just to clear this ridiculous ambiguity here. The second question is different, because how do you distinguish being simply described that way and being that way as a standalone contention (????)
In literature, nonetheless (?????), is it even possible to assign literary meaning to any text, without presupposing the truth of it as described?
Wtf does it genuinely mean "to truly be x" in fiction rather than "just being described as x" in this context?
What does it mean here? Give me an actual distinction between the evidence here and the evidence you're demanding. Because your initial assessment of this was that there is no proof of this. But your current assessment changed from that, to adding further arbitrary standards, then saying "not this proof in particular".
Man...
Excuse me...?
You do know this scan was sent alongside a scan saying the human world is transient within this thread, right?
-The surface texture is the lower world in question.
-Is like a thin layer of cloth
-that has no independent existence on its own and
- cannot, DOES NOT and WILL NEVER exist on its own,
- unlike the Inner Sea.
It literally has to be forcibly stitched/attached to the Inner Sea by the Tower at the End of the World; it is described metaphorically that otherwise "it would be peeled off" or blown away by wind.
But yeah...
I mean, if you're genuinely making a separation between this and ontology, then I don't think you know what ontology is. Unfortunately, to say "higher power" and "higher being" alone is ontology.
And I'm not correcting this because I think being simply a "higher being=1-A", I'm correcting this to say you have a vague understanding of 1-A because you just unfortunately don't understand it.
What do you think power is? Do you think it's not part of ontology? What do you think a higher being is? You do know ontology is the study of Being, right? Which inevitably includes things, entities and things like 'higher' and 'lower' relations amongst those elements of ontology.
I was very intentional when I asked you this earlier on this page:
Because I wanted to be sure I didn't misinterpret you, or if you genuinely believed this.
Is 1-A completely beyond everything now? Or did I miss something? What is actually being evaluated here in particular? A Tier 0 or something? Also, can 1-A just not be attained (accessed) anymore? Why does that matter? Were the listed reasons for 1-A that True Magic is beyond everything? I think if you're gonna evaluate, at least meet the contentions where they are, but half of this was just vague posting about how this doesn't fit 1-A, metaphors not what 1-A, and just addressing contentions that aren't there, let alone relevant to 1-A.
You do know everything you've listed there has absolutely nothing to do with 1-A standards, right?
These are either arbitrary standards built on the spot or a misunderstanding of standards. There's no level of ontological stratification that is absolutely separate from 'lower' realms, because ontic relations like 'higher' and 'lower' are baked into the language of immanence and transcendence.
Something can't be judged as higher or lower than another, lest there are some ways in which both beings relate to one another, such that one is higher and one is closed under that higher stratification. You cannot derive an accurate conception between higher and lower, within ontology, without that.
Even at Tier 0, this remains true. I refuse to believe you didn't know Tier 0 could also be attained, and if you did, why would you even claim 1-A cannot be attained, have no interaction and be completely separate from things below it?
Actually, don't answer that; it doesn't matter. All that matters is the substance of your arguments here and no more.
I knew you probably wouldn't listen to me anyway, for whatever reason, despite my trying utmost to engage in good faith and trying to get through you, so I had a friend of mine ask Ultima, and he said 1-A, you could, in fact, be attained under specific circumstances.
The same way Tier 0 can be attained. What I'm more curious about now is if you're willing to change your assessment, considering it's built on misapprehension? I don't particularly care about you agreeing; I just want to know your position now that these parts of how you interpret standards were shown to be misattributions to 1-A.
So I can clear out more ambiguity from your side, and get a more conclusive reasoning for your assessment to see whether or not it holds under scrutiny.
The thread is in its late stages after all, arguments need to be terminated more than they need to be prolonged. It's just very convenient to get absolute clarity from all parties on their positions, because the strength or lack thereof for an argument is only unveiled once the clarity is cleared.
I don't even know what the disagreement is anymore, you've been redefining 1-A for a good while, anytime the evidence got too close to comfort, it's starting to seem the tier just has no standards of its own. But worry not, every argument has a limit for moving goal posts until it starts to reveal itself as shaky.
I can dance for a good while for now.
Anyway, regarding the Ultima thing—
Last edited:
- 2,601
- 5,149
- 2,601
- 5,149
Extra pingus
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
- 470
- 307
Those criteria may not be precise, but they're still relevant. If you consider all physical power to operate on a quantitative scale, 1-A power operates on a separate scale on which all physical power is as a result effectively zero. 1-A power not only lies outside the domain of physical power, but also categorically stands "above" it in a sense, bypassing any and all physical power, being completely unaffected by it. This of course means that physical power is completely distinct from any expression of 1-A power, that physical power is completely unable to counteract 1-A power, and one cannot reach any level of 1-A power by summing up any amount of physical power, all of which are what Firestorm was getting at.
The whole point of R>F statements is to show that the lower reality actually has zero power on the "scale" of power that the higher reality uses. Not just a thin, transient cloth or an unimaginably small amount of power, but literally zero. The issue here is that none of the R>F-ish statements you've cited show anything like this.
"Liberation from physical ties" is not the same as liberation from materiality/extensionality altogether. There is a distinction between non-"physicality" (or incorporeality) and being beyond dimensionality as a whole (or beyond-dimensional existence), a distinction which is acknowledged by VSBW (and is of course still true independent of it).
Also, it's ridiculous to interpret the Inner Sea being "the 'place of the mind'" as it being non-extensional mental substance in a Cartesian sense. There is no context that implies this.
Coordinates being impossible to measure does not entail that the Inner Sea is non-extensional or non-dimensional.
Keep in mind that 1-A power actually has to be superior to physical/dimensional power via its "otherness"/"different nature". However, all you have shown is one particular usage of magic facilitating a state of being where time and position lose their meaning. We have the "otherness" but not the "superiority". At best this would be BDE Type 1, which isn't 1-A.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #229
Well, that was definitely a response. Yikes.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,311
- 1,488
Isn't this supposed to be a staff thread? You've commented over 5 times now without specifying who gave you permission.
- 12,484
- 16,848
Got permission from Ant. He can comment until his permission is rescinded.
- 6,386
- 17,769
Summarizing this whole proposal based on a conversation I've had with one of the people behind this thread off-site.
It seems like besides the more seemingly straightforward things (Reality-Fiction showcases, etc) the overall argument is contextual. From what I understand: There is a direct correspondence between language and reality, such that the differentiatedness of language corresponds likewise to the differentiatedness of reality, the most distinct level corresponding to what our normal languages can pick up and represent. The World / the Inner Sea / True Magic is reality at its most basic, undifferentiated relative to all that can be expressed and meant in ordinary language (And the concepts that go along with it, because, as language is less diferentiated, so is mind, and so is meaning), and hence not expressible by it but only through a formless and "unified" language that matches its indistinction.
I mean, if that is true (And the increasing undifferentiation in turn corresponds to a superiority of higher over lower), then 1-A arguably is a lowball here, if anything. If It's just a total compression of everything that's possible to conceptualize and then explicate through language into one unified state, which remains yet inferior to the ineffability of the Root (I was informed this is the last stop in the cosmology before the Root), that's High 1-A+, if anything, unless something else goes massively against that.
Now, it's late here and I'd rather go to sleep, but I'll leave this here for the moment, both to mark my participation in this thread and hopefully make things more understandable for people currently present and to whoever chooses to hop in later. I'll take a more thorough look later (Hopefully tomorrow).
It seems like besides the more seemingly straightforward things (Reality-Fiction showcases, etc) the overall argument is contextual. From what I understand: There is a direct correspondence between language and reality, such that the differentiatedness of language corresponds likewise to the differentiatedness of reality, the most distinct level corresponding to what our normal languages can pick up and represent. The World / the Inner Sea / True Magic is reality at its most basic, undifferentiated relative to all that can be expressed and meant in ordinary language (And the concepts that go along with it, because, as language is less diferentiated, so is mind, and so is meaning), and hence not expressible by it but only through a formless and "unified" language that matches its indistinction.
I mean, if that is true (And the increasing undifferentiation in turn corresponds to a superiority of higher over lower), then 1-A arguably is a lowball here, if anything. If It's just a total compression of everything that's possible to conceptualize and then explicate through language into one unified state, which remains yet inferior to the ineffability of the Root (I was informed this is the last stop in the cosmology before the Root), that's High 1-A+, if anything, unless something else goes massively against that.
Now, it's late here and I'd rather go to sleep, but I'll leave this here for the moment, both to mark my participation in this thread and hopefully make things more understandable for people currently present and to whoever chooses to hop in later. I'll take a more thorough look later (Hopefully tomorrow).
- 9,115
- 9,966
When you are available, I want to ask for clarification on how this proposal meets the 1-A standard, because based on the FAQ, qualitative superiority requires a completely different mode of existence that the lower level cannot reach, extend into, or be reduced to, and I do not see that clearly shown here; the Inner Sea is described as mental instead of physical, beyond human understanding, and the “true reality,” but it is still part of the same system where the surface depends on it, interacts with it, and can reach it by shedding physical constraints, which sounds like a transformation within the same framework rather than something truly irreducible or unattainable, so can you clarify which specific evidence proves that the lower reality cannot reach or relate to the higher one at all in the way required for 1-A, rather than this just being a higher layer or deeper level of the same overall structure?
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #234
Man, saying the same framework is loaded here, because if something is already higher than the lower one inheres within it. Therein, you can say "they both are part of the same framework, with differences in modes of being", which is what it is that. I agree with that, but that's not a contradiction because that's just how the relation between what's higher and lower works.
Now, if it is the case that you mean there's an identity in all their essential instances, such that they share the same framework too. Then you're unjustified in doing so; context matters because it suggests otherwise, so which one of the two do you believe is suitable for 1-A in your opinion?
- 6,386
- 17,769
This bit in the FAQ probably helps with that: "Furthermore, since the "lack of continuity" that exists between the higher level and the lower one is structural, and not causal, there can potentially be more unorthodox ways of bypassing the 1-A barrier."
By "structural" here what's meant is basically a sum up of how 1-A generally works: It's "qualitative" and not "quantitative" because nothing lesser than itself can be added together to attain to its level. It's different than, e.g., the difference between 3-A and High 3-A because High 3-A is basically just an infinite amount of finite stuff, whereas, with 1-A, it's that there is no amount of lesser things that corresponds to it. Hence the difference is based on how the thing exists rather than any numerical factors. It has to be reached on its own terms. From this it should be clear why this is 1-A at minimum, if all of the above is true: 1-A and upwards is basically a matter of transcending various sorts of multiplicities. 1-A is just a being who surpasses any spatial distinction and extensions thereof. If the higher levels are increasingly undifferentiated and this lack of differentiation is proportional to their superiority over lower levels, that's gonna hit 1-A the moment it transcends the differentiation which spacetime consists in (And this is presumably the case here, if everything in the human world maps to the mode of its language and the Inner Sea the differentiations incumbent on ordinary languages don't exist).
Everything else about the tier is downstream from that. So, no, things depending on the 1-A thing isn't problematic, nor is reaching it through a "shedding" of physical existence (In fact reaching it by removals rather than additions is probably a clear-cut case of an unproblematic way in which that can happen, since you're not extending or adding to the lower thing, but exactly the opposite). Interactions in general follow this same rule-of-thumb: Are they happening by an extension of some "force" from the lower into the higher? Something that's generally reducible to additions of "non-1-A + non-1-A"? If not, there's no problem really.
- 9,115
- 9,966
I understand what you’re saying about 1-A being a qualitative, structural difference and not something you reach by stacking lower levels, and that removing or "shedding" structure can be a valid way to reach it. What I’m still unclear on is how the example here specifically proves that it actually transcends all spatial differentiation and multiplicity in that strict sense, rather than just being described as abstract or beyond normal concepts. Could you clarify what kind of direct evidence or statements would be needed to show that this isn’t just a higher or more fundamental layer, but truly qualifies as 1-A under those standards?
Last edited:
- 6,386
- 17,769
Generally the evidence (When it's not just a straightforward "superior to dimensionality" thing. That exists) would be some combinations of those abstract descriptors and some superlative that clearly indicates a superiority. I mean, for instance: If a realm is described as aspatial, atemporal, dimensionless, non-extended, and so on, that's one thing. It'd be Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence on its own. If, in addition to that, it's also described as somehow "bigger" than normal reality, as containing it or encompassing it, and so on and so forth, then that's generally what you're looking for.
I think generally my preferred illustrative examples are when a verse has a "void" or "nothingness" realm that has all these descriptors, and then is depicted as this huge backdrop which the universe is a tiny thing inside. Provided, of course, that the verse gives you no reason to think these representations mean something else.
Whether any of this is present here is another matter, of course.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #238
I'll bring this further on since things are looking the way they are right now. Continuing on from here, in relation to that, you must know that not only is the latter indefensible contextually, which is why all the responses have been singular assessments of individual scans rather than context. But there are several other pieces of evidence that just keep getting brought up with the responses continuously deviating from engaging with the context. What type of question even is "True Magic is outside and other sure, now show me how it's superior (?)"
The unfolding from the Celestial Egg (initiation of planetary processes/flows) cannot be achieved by literally absolutely anything other than the Celestial Egg within the entire cosmology and simpliciter. Because the unfolding of the Planet does not depend on fates and energy. Goetia assumed he could time-travel back to the conception of the Planet to steal that energy and become his own Planet, but it failed:
Precisely because something that is not the Celestial Egg cannot achieve celestial conception, because of its peculiar mode of being. There's literally absolutely zero evidence to suggest the Celestial Egg is transcendent in a quantitative sense. They deny it and say no matter how many you gather and energy you gather, you cannot cause Planetary unfolding.
And that unfolding is concentrated at the Inner Sea.
The causal power of the Celestial Egg is expressed literally by eternally and inexhaustible production, to which humanity cannot imagine anything beyond. There's no limit to human perception and imagination, for any stage of ascension—there is always a step greater, what can truly be infinity is what eludes mankind. Even if one raised their psyche one rank into a higher dimension, there will always be another being beyond. That this thing called Eternity, which in this context is Arcueid (Archetype).
And they say this is Eternity produces all things without, beings of many different scales. So there's nothing that can measure up to that causal closure as simultaneously the beginning and end of everything too, where everything comes from and ultimately returns back, that expresses itself infinitely when within/within time itself.
That's Roa says in theory (though not that it matters), there's no end to power under Eternity. There are many higher beings closed under it, and other beings closed under the lower of those higher beings
Since we know how many different species and multiverses are part of it.
This is, in fact, why Arcueid has the greatest authority among them all: strength without limit, magical energy without limit and capabilities that increase without limit.
This made Roa redefine his idea of omnipotence, diverting from the classical theist conception of omnipotence as fixed perfection. But to him, it is also how it expresses itself, which is eternal unfolding.
This has everything to do with fundamentality and transcendence.
And importantly, Roa was not committing to pure change as omnipotence. He thought reality ought to follow the path towards the conclusion of everything, again in accordance with True Magic being far removed from the system of the material world, such that it is regarded as "nothingness" because it can't be anything other than that.
For him too, this perfect also cannot 'exist', yet is simultaneously where humanity is headed towards. The conclusion of humanity. It is the meaning of the Soul; it has been referenced in Case Files as the Celestial Egg. Hidden (as not an 'existent' conventionally as thought of in the domain of the surface texture, as it is undifferentiated) meaning of the Soul and Planet itself.
The Celestial Egg.
At the beginning, I didn't think this was High 1-A+, though. I thought that was simply wank and sought the correct ratings, and not to simply wank a verse of preference. The arguments and the evidence were simply provided to Ultima, without that consideration, so pretty much just a conclusion arrived at from this. I wonder what was up with a particular individual calling us all "brain-rotted" for lowballing things as they stand, but I digress.
That's all.
- 9,115
- 9,966
I understand the standard you’re pointing to, but I’m still unsure how the proposal satisfies it as written. The FAQ requires not just abstract descriptors like "beyond space, time, or dimensions" (which would fall under beyond-dimensional existence), but also a clear superlative relation, like the higher realm containing or encompassing the lower in a way that shows qualitative superiority. In this case, while the Inner Sea is described as non-physical, beyond human comprehension, and more fundamental, it is also consistently presented as part of the same planetary system, with the surface depending on it, interacting with it, and even being able to reach it through transformation. So my question is: where is the clear evidence that this is more than just a deeper or more abstract layer, and instead actually functions like the examples you gave, where the lower reality is fully encompassed or rendered insignificant in a way that meets the FAQ’s standard for qualitative superiority?
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #240
Not responding to the bits you're asking Ultima about, but
Misunderstanding the fact that difference has an identity wherein unity is concentrated, and the structure of existence following Taijitu, which has it that difference arises in effects as they proceed from cause, not cause-as-such (immediately rejecting the difference principle of causality, that difference in effects necessitates difference in cause). Is grounds for both of them having radically different modes of ontology. Yes, the result is that both look close, but that's simply because models of undifferentiation - > differentiation actually close decreases the gap between transcendence and immanence.
This is something external to the evidence of it being 1-A or, beyond, in this case. Like things can return from the Root PRECISELY because they are never 'distinct' and because of that 'never left the Root', for example. It's the same principle; the Planet is the intermediary that allows for things to connect to the Root. I explained that through my earlier summary on page 5 regarding Soul, and how it relates to beings attaining True Magic.
This is not how this works at all; you're conflating the indifference inherent within the Celestial Egg as a unity, which is concentrated in the Inner Sea. As grounds to say all of the emergent phenomena are also the same trivially as their ground.
Misunderstanding the fact that difference has an identity wherein unity is concentrated, and the structure of existence following Taijitu, which has it that difference arises in effects as they proceed from cause, not cause-as-such (immediately rejecting the difference principle of causality, that difference in effects necessitates difference in cause). Is grounds for both of them having radically different modes of ontology. Yes, the result is that both look close, but that's simply because models of undifferentiation - > differentiation actually close decreases the gap between transcendence and immanence.
This is something external to the evidence of it being 1-A or, beyond, in this case. Like things can return from the Root PRECISELY because they are never 'distinct' and because of that 'never left the Root', for example. It's the same principle; the Planet is the intermediary that allows for things to connect to the Root. I explained that through my earlier summary on page 5 regarding Soul, and how it relates to beings attaining True Magic.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
