The Amazing Downgraded Circus (TADC Downgrades)

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 16, 2026

Congritulations, all of my friends! TADC scaling is getting a cleanse!

Introduction

After these two threads concluded, the current scaling is inconsistent. So, I'll fix that.

Caine downgrades

7-B & LS Nuke

Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun

As Charmander said here and mods agreed to him here and here, self-affirmations are just empty boasts. Especially in Caine's case, who has most blatant superiority complex. Hence why current statements used on our profile where NPCs state that he is the strongest are not valid way for him to upscale from Moon and Sun, since NPCs are created by him and just reflect his own ego. Therefore, he should simply scale to the cast in all physicals as he used to before the upgrades.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Moon & Sun calcs

One of the reasons 4-A downgrade CRT was accepted was because Caine has no reason to create real stars and outer-space, as he is just a generative AI for adventures and it's inefficient for a program, and therefore it would be much better to fake them. This is also consistent with the fact that the entire Circus was created by Caine, and this is all the data he was given, which doesn't include any Sun/Moon density values, and we know that he made these laws of physics and struggled to do them accurately, like cube collisions. It is supported by the fact that, as pointed out here, Sun and Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size. This would mean that assuming density of a real Sun and a real Moon in calcs as they do currently is useless, since making them weigh so much while they need to be floating makes no sense, and Caine would have no way to know how the real Sun and Moon are actually made. So, these calcs aren't even valid.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Intelligence downgrade

Kinger says that everyone in the Circus has the ability to conjure, but for everyone except Caine it requires great concentration and skill. But for Caine itself, it "comes naturally to him". This would mean he doesn't really need much intelligence for creating adventures, and combined with the fact that he is canonically described as crazy and insane as even currently noted in the profile, he should be downgraded to Average intelligence.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Main cast downgrade

First of all, 9-A+ is very inconsistent. Cast consistently gets one-shot by the regular guns, which are 9-C. Zooble gets harmed by her falling from small attitude, here cast is afraid of fall until Caine saves them, and all of this is definitely way below 9-A+. Moreover, the entire Circus was created by Caine, and just like it makes no sense for him to know how the real stars were formed, it makes no sense for him to know these explosion yield equations and put them in the games as a law (especially since this is all the data he was given, which doesn't include complex physics/math equations), and we know that he made these laws of physics and struggled to do them accurately, like cube collisions. Therefore, cast should be downgraded to old 1 Kilojoule 9-C calc, and in that tier these anti-feats all make sense.

This is exactly what we did with Hazbin: there were many guns and cars etc. anti-feats, so we removed both tier 8 and tier 5 calcs (one for each) instead of saying guns simply upscale. Here, it is a single 9-A+, borderline 8-C, with tons of guns and knives and cars as anti-feats. In order to maintain consistency, I think they shall be downgraded.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

10-C downgrade

The whole premise of the series is the cast being trapped in a VR game, which is TADC. End of Pilot literally shows us computer, main cast talks about their life before the Circus, Kinger notes that this game was worth seven years of computer science, and he describes how he, Scratch, and other programmers created it. The point is that TADC makes a very great emphasis on this not being real world but a mere program, thus should be 10-C. Also, one of arguments accepted by staff here was that it makes no sense for a program to hold infinite energy. But this also conversely applies to kilojoules: it makes no sense for a program to hold characters worth 1 KJ or more each, it makes sense for them just to be bytes and code with very teeny tiny energy.

Agree:
Disagree: @Planck69
Neutral:

Conclusion

That's kind of it.

Mommyleona · Apr 17, 2026

I agree with everything

Jason_Courne · Apr 17, 2026

Disagree with 9-A downgrade and also any form of using the 10-C concept

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
First of all, 9-A+ is very inconsistent. Cast consistently gets one-shot by the regular guns, which are 9-C

Guns have penetration + the premise of the adventure specifically gave the cast a limited health pool compared to normal

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Zooble gets harmed by her falling from small attitude

Unharmed at most annoyed

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
here cast is afraid of fall until Caine saves them

Caine is in complete control over their bodies and pissed off, otherwise under more normal circumstances they have literally no fear from a substantially larger fall

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
and all of this is definitely way below 9-A+

Most of these are Caine telekinetically slamming them into each other / with objects. Pomni getting monkey pulled does no damage, and her body is naturally elastic. Gangle's cannon or Jax's car antifeats don't really count either because there is no real world equivalent (and also both were also controlled by Caine)

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
and just like it makes no sense for him to know how the real stars were formed, it makes no sense for him to know these explosion yield equations and put them in the games as a law

It doesn't matter if he explicitly knows them because they function demonstrably the same as the actual formula

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
10-C downgrade

Reality Equalization

Arceus0x · Apr 17, 2026

Yeah bro you did not cook with that, 9-A's still constantly get hurt by guns across fiction, it's a pretty stable thing, not to mention these aren't real guns but generated ones so they could've easily been made specifically to hurt them. I mean, some of these guns literally just explode heads, not something that happens normally unless you use a shotgun.

Not sure about the 7-B thing but he should be at least 7-B with creation. He can warp his body around to completely mollywhop the main characters so physically he has shown that he can restrict them all at the same time. Since characters like Abs. Kaufmo get upscaled to 8-C due to the calc being close to it, Caine should at minimum be 8-C, 7-B with creation or higher since techinically he also did make mountains and stuff.

10-C...you didn't read anything I told you last time did you? Anyways, Reality Equalization was linked above, if you've an issue with it then take it up in a staff thread (where you'll get ratio'd).

Disagree with Average intelligence, he does have enough intelligence as an AI to not only generate things but also create and use various mechanics. A supercomputer still counts as Extraordinary Genius because it has that kind of processing power, doesn't matter that it didn't gain it through research. Being insane isn't a detriment to processor-type intellect.

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Jason_Courne said:
Guns have penetration

Then upgrade guns to 9-A lmao. The difference is in millions, you don't get that covered by simple "penetration".

Arceus0x said:
9-A's still constantly get hurt by guns across fiction

Maybe low-end 9-A's, but TADC's is almost 8-C.

Arceus0x said:
not to mention these aren't real guns but generated ones so they could've easily been made specifically to hurt them

Then they can all also be 10-B and Caine just makes all explosions and attacks to their level by the same logic.

Arceus0x said:
Not sure about the 7-B thing but he should be at least 7-B with creation

Arceus0x said:
7-B with creation or higher since techinically he also did make mountains and stuff

No timeframe, so just Unknown. Similar to what we do with Hazbin creation.

Jason_Courne said:
under more normal circumstances they have literally no fear from a substantially larger fall

It was into a water, which is different + we don't see them immediately after, so could've regenerated.

Jason_Courne said:
Most of these are Caine telekinetically slamming them into each other / with objects.

Which is around 9-C KE or lower.

Jason_Courne said:
Gangle's cannon or Jax's car antifeats don't really count either because there is no real world equivalent

Pretty sure we have both at 9-C to 9-B on the wiki via KE.

Jason_Courne said:
(and also both were also controlled by Caine)

Buddy, EVERYTHING is created by Caine. By same logic, nothing is scalable here, so everyone gets Unknown lmao.

Jason_Courne said:
It doesn't matter if he explicitly knows them because they function demonstrably the same as the actual formula

Huh? Where does it show correlation between energy and radius? Heck, the feat was even caused by something physically impossible, i.e. cube collision bug, so what's your point?

Jason_Courne said:
Reality Equalization

Arceus0x said:
10-C...you didn't read anything I told you last time did you? Anyways, Reality Equalization was linked above, if you've an issue with it then take it up in a staff thread (where you'll get ratio'd).

I specifically gave the reason why it doesn't apply here. I.e., the great plot point is about that it's just a program and they need to leave, and the fact that Caine made the laws of physics and there is no reason for him to load up the program with kilojoules, it's inefficient.

Arceus0x said:
Disagree with Average intelligence, he does have enough intelligence as an AI to not only generate things but also create and use various mechanics.

It comes naturally to him, so not really tbh. There is a difference between creating universe via ability and creating via superintelligence through tech. Caine is the former.

Arceus0x said:
Being insane isn't a detriment to processor-type intellect.

It is currently used as one on the profile though.

Arceus0x · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Then upgrade guns to 9-A lmao. The difference is in millions, you don't get that covered by simple "penetration".

It's simply how fiction rolls. There are many 9-A, 8-C and even higher characters that are threatened by guns. It's kinda similar to falls where a character can be tier 7 to 2 and still be afraid of dying to fall damage. Guns simply are op in fiction.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Maybe low-end 9-A's, but TADC's is almost 8-C.

No, there are very much tier 8 characters too. Sakamoto Days characters for example.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Then they can all also be 10-B and Caine just makes all explosions and attacks to their level by the same logic.

Seems to make more sense for cartoon characters to be cartoonily tough rather than adjusting everything to their level. Making them durable is one action, making everything he does on their level is like a million.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
No timeframe, so just Unknown. Similar to what we do with Hazbin creation.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I specifically gave the reason why it doesn't apply here. I.e., the great plot point is about that it's just a program and they need to leave, and the fact that Caine made the laws of physics and there is no reason for him to load up the program with kilojoules, it's inefficient.

Irrelevant, SAO is also about people wanting to leave a video game. It doesn't matter that he can't generate kilojoules it only matters what happens in that world because of reality equalization. The page linked above has a literal dream equalized as reality. Are our brains generating TenaExaFoe of energy now?

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
It comes naturally to him, so not really tbh. There is a difference between creating universe via ability and creating via superintelligence through tech. Caine is the former.

He is an AI capable of high-end programming that humans can't do normally. Supercomputers are similar, calculating is natural to them whilst humans need time.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
It is currently used as one on the profile though.

Weird. Shouldn't be there beyond a weakness.

Comiphorous · Apr 17, 2026

Arceus0x said:
No, there are very much tier 8 characters too. Sakamoto Days characters for example.

Hell, there are tier 2 verses that are threatened with guns and swords. Guns and such being threats to tier 8-7s and up is just a VERY common inconsistency in fiction. Characters who have shown feats at that level all would all be tier 10-9 if we downgraded them based off the fact guns are a threat to them.

Guns being a threat to characters usually isn't that great of an anti-feat unless it's a grounded universe, which TADC really isn't at all (in the simulation, that is)

Eden_Warlock99 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I specifically gave the reason why it doesn't apply here. I.e., the great plot point is about that it's just a program and they need to leave, and the fact that Caine made the laws of physics and there is no reason for him to load up the program with kilojoules, it's inefficient.

It being a program they want to leave kinda applies to 90% of all virtual worlds, ever? Like even SAO fits that description. It still doesn’t change the fact that every single scene in TADC takes place inside the Circus, and the only glimpse we have of the outside world is a single shot from the pilot. The circus is most definitely the "baseline reality" here.

The physics argument does remind me of how the Slay the Princess creators said our calcs are probably off since physics doesn’t really exist in that world, it all runs on perception and stuff, really similar to TADC. But even then, it’s not like 99.9% of creators are seriously accounting for irl physics when they write these scenes anyway.
And the logical end of that ends with us labelling most characters at just Unknown. Which is really boring.

Like at the end of the day this stuff's for dumb fun anyway and taking away math from powerscaling is sorta like having a cake with no lime.

Comiphorous · Apr 17, 2026

Eden_Warlock99 said:
The physics argument does remind me of how the Slay the Princess creators said our calcs are probably off since physics doesn’t really exist in that world, it all runs on perception and stuff, really similar to TADC. But even then, it’s not like 99.9% of creators are seriously accounting for irl physics when they write these scenes anyway.
And the logical end of that ends with us labelling most characters at just Unknown. Which is really boring.

If the creators of a verse i support on this wiki actually noticed it I think i'd panick because what if i was WRONG and now look STUPID in front of the people who made the thing i'm supposed to be knowledgeable on???

Jason_Courne · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Then upgrade guns to 9-A lmao. The difference is in millions, you don't get that covered by simple "penetration".

Wtf would we rate attack potency on the limited ability to durability negate and not their actual AP? That's stupid. The tip of a 7.62 round is 0.787 mm wide, compare that to a big ass human cross section and the gap IS a million times over

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
It was into a water, which is different + we don't see them immediately after, so could've regenerated.

*liquid fudge, not water

And even then falling into water from hundreds of feet is the same as splatting onto concrete. Pomni tanked a similarly large fall onto the floor with no damage

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Which is around 9-C KE or lower.

Yeah except for the neat bit of Caine's telekinesis neg diffing nigh every character in the verse, including the several thousand pounds abstractions

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Buddy, EVERYTHING is created by Caine. By same logic, nothing is scalable here, so everyone gets Unknown lmao.

Except these were explicitly created through Caine abusing his power to torture the cast, as is the entire point of the song that he is fully realizing his godhood over them

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I specifically gave the reason why it doesn't apply here. I.e., the great plot point is about that it's just a program and they need to leave, and the fact that Caine made the laws of physics and there is no reason for him to load up the program with kilojoules, it's inefficient.

The Matrix

Mommyleona · Apr 17, 2026

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Slay the Princess creators said our calcs are probably off since physics doesn’t really exist in that world

Slay the princess creators checked the wiki

?
Crazy

Anyway about guns stuff, it's usually not considered an anti feat when characters are obviously way beyond that, therefore it's akin to an outlier... which isnt exactly the same for TADC cast, the verse is still fairly grounded (outside of caine or whatnot)

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
This is also consistent with the fact that the entire Circus was created by Caine, and this is all the data he was given

I really don't like this logic. Caine creates so much more stuff than just what's seen on those photos. He literally couldn't create ANYTHING if we're saying that's all he knows.
He creates trucks, mansions and ghosts, guns, award shows, he even knows about God and his angels and many, many, many other things that simply wouldn't work if we put this type of limit on what he knows.

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Arceus0x said:
It's simply how fiction rolls. There are many 9-A, 8-C and even higher characters that are threatened by guns. It's kinda similar to falls where a character can be tier 7 to 2 and still be afraid of dying to fall damage. Guns simply are op in fiction.

Tell that to Hazbin that got downgraded to Tier 9 from Tier 8 and 5 for similar reasoning.

Arceus0x said:
No, there are very much tier 8 characters too. Sakamoto Days characters for example.

Well, I'm pretty sure they have consistent Tier 8 and not random dubious 9-A+ feat.

Arceus0x said:
Seems to make more sense for cartoon characters to be cartoonily tough rather than adjusting everything to their level.

No-no-no, you don't just duck away from your own logic like that. Be consistent.

Arceus0x said:
Making them durable is one action, making everything he does on their level is like a million.

Not really, he created everything from nothing. It makes no sense for him to make everything worth kilojoules and stuff, he would most likely just decide what is lethal and what is not based on need rather than physics (because, again, he doesn't have access to irl physics equations and even struggles with basic cube collisions).

Arceus0x said:
Irrelevant, SAO is also about people wanting to leave a video game.

Cool, but I'd guess TADC is way more centered about the fact that it's not real.

Arceus0x said:
It doesn't matter that he can't generate kilojoules it only matters what happens in that world because of reality equalization.

We established that since it's a program, it can't have an infinite universe, since it'd require infinite energy for a VR game. Using exact same principle, it can't have kilojoules worth of energy, since a VR game having so much is illogical and inefficient.

Arceus0x said:
The page linked above has a literal dream equalized as reality.

Has its own accepted things, most likely, different from what has been going on with TADC revisions.

Arceus0x said:
He is an AI capable of high-end programming that humans can't do normally. Supercomputers are similar, calculating is natural to them whilst humans need time.

We literally see he just snaps fingers, what calculations

Eden_Warlock99 said:
It still doesn’t change the fact that every single scene in TADC takes place inside the Circus, and the only glimpse we have of the outside world is a single shot from the pilot. The circus is most definitely the "baseline reality" here.

There are also Jax's flashbacks and Caine's creation programming, and tons of references on how Circus was creating by Kinger and rest or their real former real life, so not sure about that.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
The physics argument does remind me of how the Slay the Princess creators said our calcs are probably off since physics doesn’t really exist in that world, it all runs on perception and stuff, really similar to TADC.

Interesting...

Eden_Warlock99 said:
And the logical end of that ends with us labelling most characters at just Unknown. Which is really boring.

Shame on you, I in fact find it funny!

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Like at the end of the day this stuff's for dumb fun anyway and taking away math from powerscaling is sorta like having a cake with no lime.

Accuracy should be above fun in these cases tbh. If a character is an illusion but has a 7-C KE, I think he is still an illusion and should not have that tier.

Jason_Courne said:
Wtf would we rate attack potency on the limited ability to durability negate and not their actual AP? That's stupid. The tip of a 7.62 round is 0.787 mm wide, compare that to a big ass human cross section and the gap IS a million times over

Not really, 1 meter is merely 1000 mililiters.

Jason_Courne said:
*liquid fudge, not water

Geez, nitpicking. But still, the same principle of softening the landing.

Jason_Courne said:
And even then falling into water from hundreds of feet is the same as splatting onto concrete. Pomni tanked a similarly large fall onto the floor with no damage

She was literally harmed. Thanks for an antifeat I guess?

Jason_Courne said:
Yeah except for the neat bit of Caine's telekinesis neg diffing nigh every character in the verse

Some of those are his telekinesis, many others are just boxer punch, cannons, and cars etc.

Jason_Courne said:
Except these were explicitly created through Caine abusing his power to torture the cast, as is the entire point of the song that he is fully realizing his superiority over them

And before that he was a friendly human-loving AI, why would he make an explosion atomize them? Exact same logic here.

Randomuser3412 said:
I really don't like this logic. Caine creates so much more stuff than just what's seen on those photos. He literally couldn't create ANYTHING if we're saying that's all he knows.

Well, tell that to mods who accepted the thread based on the fact that he can't realistically have an access to how stars are formed! I'm just applying consistency here.

Psychomaster35 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
7-B & LS Nuke
Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun
As Charmander said here and mods agreed to him here and here, self-affirmations are just empty boasts. Especially in Caine's case, who has most blatant superiority complex. Hence why current statements used on our profile where NPCs state that he is the strongest are not valid way for him to upscale from Moon and Sun, since NPCs are created by him and just reflect his own ego. Therefore, he should simply scale to the cast in all physicals as he used to before the upgrades.

The thing is, however, is that Caine is constantly and consistently stated by all of his creations to be their God, hence why he scales above them in power. Yes, Caine is egotistical, but he's still above his creations according to them. I disagree with the nuke.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Moon & Sun calcs
One of the reasons 4-A downgrade CRT was accepted was because Caine has no reason to create real stars and outer-space, as he is just a generative AI for adventures and it's inefficient for a program, and therefore it would be much better to fake them. This is also consistent with the fact that the entire Circus was created by Caine, and this is all the data he was given, which doesn't include any Sun/Moon density values, and we know that he made these laws of physics and struggled to do them accurately, like cube collisions. It is supported by the fact that, as pointed out here, Sun and Moon are shown as cartoonishly move around above the circus while also being around the same size. This would mean that assuming density of a real Sun and a real Moon in calcs as they do currently is useless, since making them weigh so much while they need to be floating makes no sense, and Caine would have no way to know how the real Sun and Moon are actually made. So, these calcs aren't even valid.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

I also disagree with this. Just because the Moon and the Sun are the same size doesn't mean their feats of moving are completely unusable, it just means that they are not the same size as a traditional sun and moon especially with how they appear in front of clouds. We also don't have any evidence that Caine wasn't given any density values, meaning that these densities of the Sun and Moon should still be usable. Furthermore, the Sun and the Moon are sentient, whereas every other object that lacked proper physics was inanimate.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Intelligence downgrade
Kinger says that everyone in the Circus has the ability to conjure, but for everyone except Caine it requires great concentration and skill. But for Caine itself, it "comes naturally to him". This would mean he doesn't really need much intelligence for creating adventures, and combined with the fact that he is canonically described as crazy and insane as even currently noted in the profile, he should be downgraded to Average intelligence.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Don't have much to speak on this, so I'm neutral here.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Main cast downgrade
First of all, 9-A+ is very inconsistent. Cast consistently gets one-shot by the regular guns, which are 9-C. Zooble gets harmed by her falling from small attitude, here cast is afraid of fall until Caine saves them, and all of this is definitely way below 9-A+. Moreover, the entire Circus was created by Caine, and just like it makes no sense for him to know how the real stars were formed, it makes no sense for him to know these explosion yield equations and put them in the games as a law (especially since this is all the data he was given, which doesn't include complex physics/math equations), and we know that he made these laws of physics and struggled to do them accurately, like cube collisions. Therefore, cast should be downgraded to old 1 Kilojoule 9-C calc, and in that tier these anti-feats all make sense.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

I also disagree with this. Them being harmed by guns only means that the guns are at their level, not them being Street level. Not to mention, the cast has been known to withstand just about everything that comes at them thanks to their immortality.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
10-C downgrade
The whole premise of the series is the cast being trapped in a VR game, which is TADC. End of Pilot literally shows us computer, main cast talks about their life before the Circus, Kinger notes that this game was worth seven years of computer science, and he describes how he, Scratch, and other programmers created it. The point is that TADC makes a very great emphasis on this not being real world but a mere program, thus should be 10-C. Also, one of arguments accepted by staff here was that it makes no sense for a program to hold infinite energy. But this also conversely applies to kilojoules: it makes no sense for a program to hold characters worth 1 KJ or more each, it makes sense for them just to be bytes and code with very teeny tiny energy.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Alright, let's downgrade Doki Doki Literature Club, Pixel Gun, and Sword Art Online because they take place in virtual worlds!

In all seriousness, this is a bad idea. The whole point of the show is that the main setting is within the PC for 99% of the time which shows that the PC is the baseline reality, and any feats done within it should be fine to scale to the real world. Verse equalization is a thing, you know.

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Well, tell that to mods who accepted the thread based on the fact that he can't realistically have an access to how stars are formed! I'm just applying consistency here.

Frankly, it would have been downgraded without that type of thinking. But it just blatantly, 100% does not work in any capacity to say Caine is THIS stupid.

Tllmbrg · Apr 17, 2026

Alright, let's downgrade Doki Doki Literature Club, Pixel Gun, and Sword Art Online because they take place in virtual worlds!

I would support this, but at that point you do need a site wide revision for how we deal with these kind of verses.

Arceus0x · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Tell that to Hazbin that got downgraded to Tier 9 from Tier 8 and 5 for similar reasoning.

Bet there was more than just that but k, i will

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Well, I'm pretty sure they have consistent Tier 8 and not random dubious 9-A+ feat.

There's also a bunch of 9-B stuff afaik and another 9-A feat.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
No-no-no, you don't just duck away from your own logic like that. Be consistent.

I am consistent. You're reversing my logic but also making it inefficient. It's more efficient to make characters durable than having to adjust every supernatural feat to them. That, is logic.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Not really, he created everything from nothing. It makes no sense for him to make everything worth kilojoules and stuff, he would most likely just decide what is lethal and what is not based on need rather than physics (because, again, he doesn't have access to irl physics equations and even struggles with basic cube collisions).

They're already immortal, he doesn't need to decide anything. It's all spelled out for you and you still can't see it.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Cool, but I'd guess TADC is way more centered about the fact that it's not real.

Bs, SAO has full on game engine and number stuff everywhere. Matrix ends with the character pretty much learning to use the code, constantly switches back and forth between real and fake worlds.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
We established that since it's a program, it can't have an infinite universe, since it'd require infinite energy for a VR game. Using exact same principle, it can't have kilojoules worth of energy, since a VR game having so much is illogical and inefficient.

No, we established that it can't create a visual of something infinite because that'd require infinity. Otherwise, there are right now simulations of the observable universe real size on Gmod.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Has its own accepted things, most likely, different from what has been going on with TADC revisions.

Smells of heavy bias to me

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
We literally see he just snaps fingers, what calculations

We don't see them lmao. Did ep8 where Caine literally fights Kinger through code tell you nothing at all about his background functions?

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Accuracy should be above fun in these cases tbh. If a character is an illusion but has a 7-C KE, I think he is still an illusion and should not have that tier.

That's a you problem, we think fun should be fun

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Not really, 1 meter is merely 1000 mililiters.

Not how that works.

Da3ggman · Apr 17, 2026

Arceus0x · Apr 17, 2026

Tllmbrg said:
I would support this, but at that point you do need a site wide revision for how we deal with these kind of verses.

Best I can propose is have a * or sth next to their tiers to signify that they're virtual.

Arceus0x · Apr 17, 2026

Da3ggman said:
Lol

I think this thread is ragebait unironically. I've said my piece and I ain't gonna even bother to continue.

Breadbear83 · Apr 17, 2026

Psychomaster35 said:
The thing is, however, is that Caine is constantly and consistently stated by all of his creations to be their God, hence why he scales above them in power. Yes, Caine is egotistical, but he's still above his creations according to them. I disagree with the nuke.

I also disagree with this. Just because the Moon and the Sun are the same size doesn't mean their feats of moving are completely unusable, it just means that they are not the same size as a traditional sun and moon especially with how they appear in front of clouds. We also don't have any evidence that Caine wasn't given any density values, meaning that these densities of the Sun and Moon should still be usable. Furthermore, the Sun and the Moon are sentient, whereas every other object that lacked proper physics was inanimate.
.

Also density of the Sun is 1410kg m³ and the moon 3340kg m³, not too different from water being 1000kg m³, even with a different material the feat would be 7B

Also that argument can apply to argue about any use of physics, density values and more in calcs of TDAC, making nearly all calcs being doubtful cuz probably the circus wouldn't had those physics with those values, or even working like that

Even if reality equalization probably doesn't aknowledge that, real physics are mostly applicable, alongside assumptions from it, else calcing won't work

Tllmbrg · Apr 17, 2026

Arceus0x said:
Best I can propose is have a * or sth next to their tiers to signify that they're virtual.

I mean unless we get to see their non-digital self there's no point.

Eden_Warlock99 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Accuracy should be above fun in these cases tbh. If a character is an illusion but has a 7-C KE, I think he is still an illusion and should not have that tier.

In this case, the entire setting would also be an illusion, a dream world!
Like say Deltarune had a "It was all a dream!" ending ~~god forbid~~, does that mean we should remove all its calcs?

Our character philosophy does just seem to be "If this character existed IRL and could still do the stuff they did in their source material, how strong would they be?"

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

Neutral on Caine's intelligence, disagree with everything else FRA.

Breadbear83 said:
Even if reality equalization probably doesn't aknowledge that, real physics are mostly applicable, alongside assumptions from it, else calcing won't work

Reality Equalization would be pointless if it didn't. Every virtual character would still be 10-C because "You can't prove the materials have the same properties"

Mythic381 · Apr 17, 2026

Psychomaster35 said:
Alright, let's downgrade Doki Doki Literature Club, Pixel Gun, and Sword Art Online because they take place in virtual worlds!

Jason_Courne said:
The Matrix

DDLC:

Metaverse Enterprise Solutions from Doki Doki Literature Club!: They view Monika's world as simply a simulation. However, it's stated in the game that the simulation in which Monika lives in is as real as the real world. Thus, they cannot be considered for an R>F difference as the realms have no existential difference.

Sword Art Online/Matrix:

The Real World from Sword Art Online/The Matrix: Despite the fact that the humans in the real world view the baseline realities (Sword Art Online and The Matrix) respectively as fictional simulations/games, they do not qualify for an R>F difference as the characters are never treated as transcendent compared to the game.

(Don't really know anything regarding pixel gun)

Arceus0x said:
Bet there was more than just that but k, i will

Genuinely isn't. It's just mentioning a bunch of weapons that are only like tier 9 to downgrade them.

AguilaR202 · Apr 17, 2026

Tllmbrg said:
I would support this, but at that point you do need a site wide revision for how we deal with these kind of verses.

Then you just need to add uneccesary disclaimers for characters having access to virtual world abilities in VS matches.

It is not only pointless yap, but it defeats the purpose of debating in the first place.

Breadbear83 · Apr 17, 2026

Btw if 7B Caine is kept, can he be rounded up to 7A?

Is explain why here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/quick-caine-crt.190198/post-7667418

Mythic381 · Apr 17, 2026

Breadbear83 said:
Btw if 7B Caine is kept, can he be rounded up to 7A?

Is explain why here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/quick-caine-crt.190198/post-7667418

Just make a CRT for it, rather than derailing.

LittleGuy99 · Apr 17, 2026

Agree with Psychomaster

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Psychomaster35 said:
The thing is, however, is that Caine is constantly and consistently stated by all of his creations to be superior to them, hence why he scales above them in power. Yes, Caine is egotistical, but he's still above his creations according to them.

He is the one who made them. It is simply one of the hints to show how egocentric he is, similarly to how blue and red eyes and crashouts on Zooble with hints of violence were precursors to his crashout.

Psychomaster35 said:
I also disagree with this. Just because the Moon and the Sun are the same size doesn't mean their feats of moving are completely unusable, it just means that they are not the same size as a traditional sun and moon especially with how they appear in front of clouds.

Yes, but this means we don't know what they are made of. Like, that thing has a mouth and eyes that can move. C'mon.

Psychomaster35 said:
We also don't have any evidence that Caine wasn't given any density values, meaning that these densities of the Sun and Moon should still be usable.

We literally what he was given in the beginning of episode 8, I linked that in the OP.

Psychomaster35 said:
Furthermore, the Sun and the Moon are sentient, whereas every other object that lacked proper physics was inanimate.

I think that's more of an anti-feat, a ball of gas or rock and metal can't have a mouth or talk.

Psychomaster35 said:
I also disagree with this. Them being harmed by guns only means that the guns are at their level, not them being Street level.

Hazbin was downgraded for less. And currently we have tens of knife/fall/gun antifeats and one random dubious 9-A+ calc. Objectively, one would prefer the former.

Psychomaster35 said:
Not to mention, the cast has been known to withstand just about everything that comes at them thanks to their immortality

Then it's just immortality, which worsens your case.

Psychomaster35 said:
Alright, let's downgrade Doki Doki Literature Club, Pixel Gun, and Sword Art Online because they take place in virtual worlds!

They are explicitly told to have some big cosmology and universes. This is exact same logic that was applied in 4-A downgrade thread: when these verses were brought, it was said they have their own consistent statements of large cosmology which is not the case with TADC. Same consistent principle here.

Psychomaster35 said:
In all seriousness, this is a bad idea. The whole point of the show is that the main setting is within the PC for 99% of the time which shows that the PC is the baseline reality, and any feats done within it should be fine to scale to the real world. Verse equalization is a thing, you know.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
We established that since it's a program, it can't have an infinite universe, since it'd require infinite energy for a VR game. Using exact same principle, it can't have kilojoules worth of energy, since a VR game having so much is illogical and inefficient.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
There are also Jax's flashbacks and Caine's creation programming, and tons of references on how Circus was creating by Kinger and rest or their real former real life, so not sure about that.

Randomuser3412 said:
Frankly, it would have been downgraded without that type of thinking.

Who knows.

Randomuser3412 said:
But it just blatantly, 100% does not work in any capacity to say Caine is THIS stupid.

I mean, W = R^3*((27136*P+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2 is not a common knowledge formula. Try asking ChatGPT & Gemini (without Search function) and see if they can tell you lol.

Arceus0x said:
There's also a bunch of 9-B stuff afaik

Dunno about that, but if there are many 9-B feats then 9-B it is.

Arceus0x said:
and another 9-A feat.

Huh. If you're talking about this, then it actually one-shotted them (another anti-feat), and it wasn't even accepted.

Arceus0x said:
I am consistent. You're reversing my logic

It's not reversing, it's applying exact same principle.

Arceus0x said:
but also making it inefficient. It's more efficient to make characters durable than having to adjust every supernatural feat to them. That, is logic.

Not really. Efficiency runs on the same result with the lowest energy possible. It saves way more data and energy to make these events have low energy than characters always having so much.

It's simple calculus.

Arceus0x said:
They're already immortal, he doesn't need to decide anything.

Still inefficient waste of data and energy. Plus immortality arguably debunks 9-A+ feat even more, since they could have simply regenned then.

Arceus0x said:
It's all spelled out for you and you still can't see it.

What am I? Stupid?

Arceus0x said:
Bs, SAO has full on game engine and number stuff everywhere. Matrix ends with the character pretty much learning to use the code, constantly switches back and forth between real and fake worlds.

Welp, barely heard of SAO. If it's similar then the same logic can be applied to it, I suppose, since the narrative of being a game heavily outweighs whatever fan calcs we do.

Arceus0x said:
No, we established that it can't create a visual of something infinite because that'd require infinity.

That formulation is similar, better reword it.

And again, by the same logic, he he can't create a threat of something worth 10K joules since that'd require 10K joules, tons and tons of energy, inefficiently applied and unrealistic for a videogame. Be consistent please.

Arceus0x said:
Smells of heavy bias to me

~~Plaki plaki~~ Nah.

Arceus0x said:
We don't see them lmao. Did ep8 where Caine literally fights Kinger through code tell you nothing at all about his background functions?

It is just a defense protocol, don't think Caine was literally there. Otherwise, he would have teleported and stopped him.

Arceus0x said:
That's a you problem, we think fun should be fun

Fun is fundamentally subjective, so...

Arceus0x said:
Not how that works.

Look it up if you don't believe that for some unknown to me reason lol.

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I mean, W = R^3*((27136*P+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2 is not a common knowledge formula. Try asking ChatGPT & Gemini (without Search function) and see if they can tell you lol.

You know that's not what I meant, right? I'm only saying the logic in the OP wouldn't let Caine create any of his adventures or any sort of physics system at all.

Randomuser3412 said:
Reality Equalization would be pointless if it didn't. Every virtual character would still be 10-C because "You can't prove the materials have the same properties"

I've already said my stance on why it should stay.

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Randomuser3412 said:
You know that's not what I meant, right? I'm only saying the logic in the OP wouldn't let Caine create any of his adventures or any sort of physics system at all.

I meant that Caine wouldn't know these specific physics like star formation or explosion yield formula, notthings like gravity which is known to everyone (stuff falls). I meant this, not that he is literally a toddler level stupid.

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

What-- nevermind, it's not worth it.

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Alright!

Randomuser3412 · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Alright!

Responds to a post saying that's not what they meant with the thing that person just said wasn't what they meant
Doesn't actually address their argument
"Alright!"

I'm starting to like this guy

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Tbf, I was more responding to the part that he wouldn't be able to make a physics system. I think I answered the fact that he wouldn't be able to make any adventure by the fact that this type of logic is already accepted now. I've been always actively using this exact argument of yours (that he creates lots of stuff he wasn't loaded data with) as an argument off-site.

IDK3465 · Apr 17, 2026

I suppose I could understand wanting to downgrade Caine’s physicals and intelligence, not saying I agree, but I can at least respect the argument

Everything else is total bullshit

No, getting harmed by guns doesn’t automatically mean that you’re 9-C max, it more than likely just means that the guns scale to you and are more powerful than irl ones

No, if your series takes place in a simulation for the vast majority of its runtime, we aren’t gonna banish it to 10-C hell, that’s just stupid and restricts what makes these characters actually interesting in vs debating. TADC is literally one of the most perfect examples of a verse qualifying for reality equalization, in the same vein as the Matrix and SAO.

I love you Orange, but this ain’t it chief

Jepilstiltskin · Apr 17, 2026

So far so good, until I see the guns and 10-C part. Yeah, no.

Jason_Courne · Apr 17, 2026

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Not really, 1 meter is merely 1000 mililiters.

Penetration is based on area, not length, so the gap is increased quadratically

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Geez, nitpicking. But still, the same principle of softening the landing.

Not nitpicking when fudge is just objectively denser than water, and also far more viscious, which heavily negates the whole "water disperses an impact!" argument

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
She was literally harmed. Thanks for an antifeat I guess?

Treating a fall that would splatter a human to giblits the same as tripping over a curb, isn't exactly motions for an anti feat, y'know?

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Some of those are his telekinesis, many others are just boxer punch, cannons, and cars etc.

A cartoon cannon that with no actual projectile exploding Gangle's head, a train being moved at insane speeds to crush Jax

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
And before that he was a friendly human-loving AI, why would he make an explosion atomize them? Exact same logic here.

Because they could tank it? Their feats alone are already beyond human ability, hell they were previously 9-A for scaling to Abstracted Kaufmo shattering floors and building structures

TheOrangeGuy09 · Apr 17, 2026

Jason_Courne said:
Penetration is based on area, not length, so the gap is increased quadratically

Eh, our current standards don’t give exactly yay or nay on these methods to powerscale (why don’t we have guns at 9-A then), so idk.

Jason_Courne said:
Not nitpicking when fudge is just objectively denser than water, and also far more viscious, which heavily negates the whole "water disperses an impact!" argument

Fair.

Jason_Courne said:
Treating a fall that would splatter a human to giblits the same as tripping over a curb, isn't exactly motions for an anti feat, y'know?

Potential/kinetic energy still would be waaaay lower than 9-A+, so still an anti-feat even if above 10-B. 9-C fits here just fine.

Jason_Courne said:
A cartoon cannon that with no actual projectile exploding Gangle's head

Fair, didn’t notice that lol.

I’ll add more anti-feats tomorrow ig.

Jason_Courne said:
a train being moved at insane speeds to crush Jax

I don’t think it moved at speeds so insane it generated around a billion Joules.

Jason_Courne said:
Because they could tank it? Their feats alone are already beyond human ability

This is circular tbh.

Jason_Courne said:
hell they were previously 9-A for scaling to Abstracted Kaufmo shattering floors and building structures

Kaufmo literally ragdolls them.

The Amazing Downgraded Circus (TADC Downgrades)

Introduction​

Caine downgrades​

7-B & LS Nuke​

Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun​

Moon & Sun calcs​

Intelligence downgrade​

Main cast downgrade​

10-C downgrade​

Conclusion​

7-B & LS Nuke​

Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun​

Moon & Sun calcs​

Intelligence downgrade​

Main cast downgrade​

10-C downgrade​

Similar threads

Introduction

Caine downgrades

7-B & LS Nuke

Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun

Moon & Sun calcs

Intelligence downgrade

Main cast downgrade

10-C downgrade

Conclusion

7-B & LS Nuke

Caine upscaling from Moon & Sun

Moon & Sun calcs

Intelligence downgrade

Main cast downgrade

10-C downgrade