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My thoughts are exactly the same as Planck's.
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Something About Castlevania
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
- 11,992
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“the laws of the human world do not apply to Creatures of Chaos”
Are we going to assume every single law
Are we going to assume every single law
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- Thread starter
- #43
It is needed in this case, for the reasons I just outlined (i.e. The avoidance of damage is given by the intangibility, so if you bypass the intangibility, you bypass this avoidance). You haven't given any rebuttal whatsoever beyond "That's not how it works," when it is, in fact, how it works by basic logic.
Bolded part is exactly what's being contested here, so repeating it does absolutely nothing. You haven't proved that normal causality (What I've been referring to all along, by the way, as you can see by me using "regular causality" and the like in previous posts of mine, so the last bit about Type 5 Acausality just shows you're missing the point) is at all restricted to the human world, which is, again, what you have to prove here. "Outside human law" = "Outside regular causality" is only a sound argument if regular causality is solely human law to begin with, which is something to be positively proven and not simply assumed. it's like how you wouldn't assume that the Abyss is also outside of the laws of logic just because those apply to the human world. Same deal goes here.
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@Robo432343 it literally has laws in plural, meaning more than one and Alucard knows more about creatures of chaos than anyone given he’s one himself and has been around since the beginning, unless you wanna say Alucard is wrong for some reason, there’s nothing to suggest that this is limited to specific laws.
@Ultima_Reality Can you stop ignoring the points I’m bringing up where Soma is still in the mirror dimension to begin with while the Succubus is in the normal dimension of the castle? This isn’t elemental or phasing intangibility where their body is still technically there, this is literally going to another dimension and his spot in the castle dimension is what’s being interacted with.
You literally admitted that causality is a part of human law, so why would a being that doesn’t operate under human laws would follow their cause and effect when scientific laws in general are always about Cause and effect in the first place? Plus again none of that was ever mentioned as a requirement for type 4 when stuff like existing outside of time conceptually or predating time would qualify for these kinds of Acausality when Causality isn’t needed to be spelled out. So either you’re bringing up some standard that wasn’t remotely accepted on the site or there would need to be some evaluation on Acausality type 4 as a whole.
@Ultima_Reality Can you stop ignoring the points I’m bringing up where Soma is still in the mirror dimension to begin with while the Succubus is in the normal dimension of the castle? This isn’t elemental or phasing intangibility where their body is still technically there, this is literally going to another dimension and his spot in the castle dimension is what’s being interacted with.
You literally admitted that causality is a part of human law, so why would a being that doesn’t operate under human laws would follow their cause and effect when scientific laws in general are always about Cause and effect in the first place? Plus again none of that was ever mentioned as a requirement for type 4 when stuff like existing outside of time conceptually or predating time would qualify for these kinds of Acausality when Causality isn’t needed to be spelled out. So either you’re bringing up some standard that wasn’t remotely accepted on the site or there would need to be some evaluation on Acausality type 4 as a whole.
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Kinda late
The animation is triggered to happen no matter what. Its not as if the developers saw Succubus's code and said "No, she can touch the player while using Kyoma Demon, but she WON'T cause any damage, okay? ONLY HER can touch Soma, no other enemy, not even the all powerful Chaos itself, just her". Like, what the heck?
Also, a minor note about Acausality, is that the dialogue is talking about immortality, so the "laws of the human world" probably does not mean anything related to causality. I mean, theres a bunch of laws out there. The laws of gravity, of life and death, of newton, of natural selection, and so on, there's a hundred. Picking "laws of causality" out of no where without further context really doesn't sound accurate
Won't comment futher cuz lazy
What do you mean by "scripted" tho? Its not a cutscene, its not something inevitable to happen. She is coded to grab you and peform X animation once she hit the hitbox, and thats it. That's no different from trying to use animations of Dracula dying from a fall or Alucard dying to some random spikes to downgrade the verse, since its technically "scripted" and are animations.
The animation is triggered to happen no matter what. Its not as if the developers saw Succubus's code and said "No, she can touch the player while using Kyoma Demon, but she WON'T cause any damage, okay? ONLY HER can touch Soma, no other enemy, not even the all powerful Chaos itself, just her". Like, what the heck?
Also, a minor note about Acausality, is that the dialogue is talking about immortality, so the "laws of the human world" probably does not mean anything related to causality. I mean, theres a bunch of laws out there. The laws of gravity, of life and death, of newton, of natural selection, and so on, there's a hundred. Picking "laws of causality" out of no where without further context really doesn't sound accurate
Its really just a flowery language to make immortality sound cooler
Won't comment futher cuz lazy
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On second thought, I think Glassman is making more sense here.
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- Thread starter
- #47
Why would that change anything? Soma's actual body is phased into the mirror dimension, while the appearance of him in the castle is just an image. If the Succubus manages to physically grab him, she interacts with his body, and not with the image. Therefore, since she is interacting with his body, she should be able to harm him just fine.
If you say "She is interacting with the image, not his body, but interacting with the image is still NPI," then that'd just be NPI against regular intangibility, which would mean the proposal to remove NPI against spatial intangibility is still valid, since the thread only wants to remove that and not the entire ability. You seem to be effectively conceding the point with that.
"Regular causality applies to the human world" is not the same proposition as "Regular causality is solely human law." I affirmed the former and not the latter. Saying they're the same is like saying "Dimensionality applies to the human world, therefore it's human law, and anything outside human law is outside dimensionality." You could, as said, apply that to a number of things which I'm sure you're not really willing to push for (Even if they involve the exact same logic and therefore are just as valid as what you're saying right now)
What this argument deals with also doesn't breach into any written standard for Acausality (Not to mention the fact that this statement is not remotely comparable to "Exists outside the concept of time," so that argument is doubly weird), so I don't believe any formal survey of the ability is needed, save for maybe spotting which verses have it for bad reasons. My arguments are pretty much entirely focusing on the brute logic of it, so either you actually address them (You haven't done that) or the ability is invalidly placed. Doesn't matter one whit if other verses also have bad justifications for it. This happens all the time.
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@LIFE_OF_KING Idk where you got the idea of Dracula dying from a fall since he's almost exclusively exists as a final boss, and the one game you play as proper dracula he just teleports away from a fall but ok, as for scripted I mean it in a similar vein to a QTE or something like a button mashing event where someone gets into a situation where they react to something or break out of a situation akin to god of war with where Kratos breaks out of being petrified or reacts to Hermes attacking him, something the devs have said was intentional in design and not some random gameplay feature thrown in for lols.
Also Alucard mentioning that he's immortal doesn't make it the only thing the creatures of chaos are outside of, otherwise he would've specified it being "the law of mortality is something creatures of chaos don't abide by" rather than a general statement of "the laws of the human world don't apply to them.
@Ultima_Reality The image being grabbed by the succubus isn't regular intangibility because the ability in question isn't a regular intangible thing to begin with. You'd have to make some massive leaps in headcanon to assume that the thing we have established as going through dimension to avoid attacks is somehow just elemental or normal phasing when that's not how the mirror ability works, and throughout the conversation you've already conceded to this being spatial intangibility.
Causality and dimensionality aren't the same thing so Idk why you're making that apples and oranges comparison here when one's a higher plane of existence jump and the other is just a being that doesn't operate under the same rules as more conventional forms of life. At this point neither of us are backing down, so I'm just gonna wait for the staff input to settle this.
Also Alucard mentioning that he's immortal doesn't make it the only thing the creatures of chaos are outside of, otherwise he would've specified it being "the law of mortality is something creatures of chaos don't abide by" rather than a general statement of "the laws of the human world don't apply to them.
@Ultima_Reality The image being grabbed by the succubus isn't regular intangibility because the ability in question isn't a regular intangible thing to begin with. You'd have to make some massive leaps in headcanon to assume that the thing we have established as going through dimension to avoid attacks is somehow just elemental or normal phasing when that's not how the mirror ability works, and throughout the conversation you've already conceded to this being spatial intangibility.
Causality and dimensionality aren't the same thing so Idk why you're making that apples and oranges comparison here when one's a higher plane of existence jump and the other is just a being that doesn't operate under the same rules as more conventional forms of life. At this point neither of us are backing down, so I'm just gonna wait for the staff input to settle this.
