Route 1 Bird Brawl, Take Two! (Hoothoot vs. Pikipek)

As my first attempt at this concept was so successful, I figured I would change gears and see who would win between what I believe are two of the least popular Route 1 birds. With that being said, let's see which of these winged fiends gets the chance to fly away with their pride unscathed.

In the blue corner, we have Hoothoot from the Pokémon franchise, and in the red corner we have Pikipek from the Pokémon franchise.

• This is a battle to the death or incapacitation. No holds barred.
• Neither character are aware of each other beforehand, and there is no prep time.
• Neither character are allowed any outside help.
• This battle takes place in Viridian Forest, giving both an even playing field.
• Quite obviously, the Hoothoot and Pikipek keys are used from each respective profile.
• Speed is not equalized.

With all this being said, let the debate begin!

• Keeping Time: 2 (noninho, Lou_change)
• Beating The Drum: 1 (Tllmbrg)
• Inconclusive: 0

Starter_Pack said:

As my first attempt at this concept was so successful, I figured I would change gears and see who would win between what I believe are two of the least popular Route 1 birds. With that being said, let's see which of these winged fiends gets the chance to fly away with their pride unscathed.

In the blue corner, we have Hoothoot from the Pokémon franchise, and in the red corner we have Pikipek from the Pokémon franchise.

• This is a battle to the death or incapacitation. No holds barred.
• Neither character are aware of each other beforehand, and there is no prep time.
• Neither character are allowed any outside help.
• This battle takes place in Viridian Forest, giving both an even playing field.
• Quite obviously, the Hoothoot and Pikipek keys are used from each respective profile.
• Speed is not equalized.

With all this being said, let the debate begin!

• Keeping Time: 0
• Beating The Drum: 0
• Inconclusive: 0

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Does the no outside help mean no summoning via S.O.S. Battle stuff?

That is correct, yes.

Hoothoot:

Pikipek:



So in other words, we have the world's most stubborn timekeeping obsessed bird, Hoothoot, which always stands on 1 foot (Even when getting attacked, it won't use both feet to brace itself!) & "Whatever happens, it keeps rhythm by precisely tilting its head in time.".
Hoothoot also has a "perfect sense of time" & hoots at precisely the same time every day.

If Hoothoot is in-character, then it sounds like its behaviour is a process of elimination; It won't do anything that requires it to stop tilting its head, it'll always stay on 1 foot, & it probably won't do anything involving hooting unless it's the precisely right time, or it's desperate.

Hoothoot might also be smart. Noctowl supposedly is, & some of Hoothoot's entries say "Some countries consider it to be a wise friend, versed in the world's ways.".


Whereas Pikipek is just... strong neck, peck a lot really fast, shoot seeds as projectiles.


So what seems plausible for Hoothoot includes:
Level-Up moves: Tackle, Foresight, Hypnosis, MAYBE Peck (If it can do that without stopping the tilting of its head. But this is a bad idea when Pikipek has a longer beak.), Confusion, Zen Headbutt (Similar caveats to Peck.), Psycho Shift, Extrasensory, Take Down, Reflect, Air Slash, Roost (If it will do so while still tilting its head & being on only 1 leg.), Moonblast, Synchronoise & Dream Eater.
Egg Moves: Agility, Defog, Feather Dance, Feint Attack, Hurricane, Mean Look (Though it might seem silly with all the headtilting.), Mirror Move, Night Shade, Sky Attack, Whirlwind, Wing Attack.


& Pikipek:
Level-Up Moves: Peck, Rock Smash, Pluck, Fury Attack, Pluck, Fury Attack, Drill Peck & Bullet Seed align with its behaviour, but IDK reasons why it wouldn't use Growl, Echoed Voice Supersonic, Roost, Feather Dance, Hyper Voice etc. Although they don't seem like its 1st choice.
Egg Moves include: Boomburst, Brave Bird, Mirror Move, Tailwind, & Uproar, Gunk Shot & Sky Attack.
Gunk Shot might be in-character, although it's Mirror Herb Egg Move only.


So yeah. Presuming Hoothoot wants to avoid breaking its stand on 1 leg & tilt its head like a pendulum routine, only hooting precisely on time, I'd presume it'd focus more on its stuff that it can do without moving much. Which includes hax.

You know like Hypnosis, Synchronoise ("Using an odd shock wave, the user inflicts damage on any Pokémon of the same type in the area around it.".).
Hoothoot also has Reflect to keep Pikipek away, which helps against something that's all neck muscles & pecking.

Both of them can Mirror Move. IDK if Hoothoot would want to do that for Tailwind, if Pikipek even tries it, but it is notable that Insomnia will prevent Mirror Move-ing Hypnosis being an option for Pikipek.

If its berries were rotten enough &/or it had the right parents (&/or a Mirror Herb's involvement.) maybe Pikiepek could try Gunk Shot?
Boomburst would also get around Reflect. Screech could help mitigate it, & although none of them are STAB (If that matters.), Pikipek has like, 1 or 2, maybe 3 forms of range Physical attacks, I think?

But even if Hoothoot doesn't Roost, its ranged options like Confusion & Extrasensory seem better, since they're harder to dodge being telekinesis & an "odd, unseeable power". If we assume STAB applies, Pikipek is probably hitting harder with stuff like Hyper Voice & especially Sky Attack & Boomburst.
Pikipek might also be more willing to use Roost.


So yeah. It seems like Hoothoot is the haxier 1 with harder to dodge stuff, & good defensive options, but slightly hindered by its weird behaviour. While Pikipek is more likely to make use of its healing, & has a speed boost option that Hoothoot can only Mirror Move, & if it can hit Hoothoot, will be hitting harder, especially if STAB is applied & especially if Reflect isn't up.

If Hoothoot were to spam Moonblast, it would only need 30% odds to get a Sp. Atk drop on Pikipek, which could help against Pikipek's range, but Hoothoot would need to do that early, unless our bird that always stands on 1 leg no matter what is willing to do some Roosting.


I'm unsure myself. Thoughts, all?

Bump.

Bump.

Bump.

Bump.

If we go by appearance, Pikpek is already losing lmao
And well, Hoothoot also is slightly more likely to use attacks that actually do something (pikipek's description clearly points for a nice chance for him to use Bullet Seed...a grass move. Also even if he hit idk rock smash, wow great damage with that 40 BP that almost was resisted...Oh yeah, there's also the fact that the pikipek's best moves damagewise suck ass in this situation (Brave bird and Sky attack) cuz Foresight, Confusion and Extrasensory to  start making the sweetest owl harder to hit)

Hoothoot mid-low diff FRA

noninho said:

If we go by appearance, Pikpek is already losing lmao
And well, Hoothoot also is slightly more likely to use attacks that actually do something (pikipek's description clearly points for a nice chance for him to use Bullet Seed...a grass move. Also even if he hit idk rock smash, wow great damage with that 40 BP that almost was resisted...Oh yeah, there's also the fact that the pikipek's best moves damagewise suck ass in this situation (Brave bird and Sky attack) cuz Foresight, Confusion and Extrasensory to  start making the sweetest owl harder to hit)

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To its credit, Pikipek does get Drill Peck by Level Up & Boomburst & Gunk Shot via Egg Moves, but yeah. Most of its ranged tactics seem lacking, & getting into close quarters is difficult.
Also, how does Foresight help Hoothoot evade? Just... locating the foe?

I do want to note that Pikipek is the faster and more potent mon offensively (65 speed vs Hoothoot's 50, while having 75 which is the highest stat here)
Not to mention Hoothoot's defense is way worse than its special defense (Only 30), so Hoothoot wants Reflect up so it doesn't get wrecked by Pikipek's raw offenses here

But Pikipek is acting first, so if it chooses something like Brave Bird I don't think Hoothoot is honestly surviving the follow-up
Furthermore, it seems like Pikipek gets berries as standard equipment, Oran and Sitrus specifically. Both of those will heal Pikipek, which increases its longevity.

Honestly, even though Hoothoot has better haxes I am leaning towards Pikipek winning since Hoothoot's best bet is landing a Hypnosis as otherwise, Pikipek can just beat the shit out Hoothoot

Tllmbrg said:

I do want to note that Pikipek is the faster and more potent mon offensively (65 speed vs Hoothoot's 50, while having 75 which is the highest stat here)
Not to mention Hoothoot's defense is way worse than its special defense (Only 30), so Hoothoot wants Reflect up so it doesn't get wrecked by Pikipek's raw offenses here

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In base stats, which are game mechanics, unless you wanna tell me that Escavalier (Base 20 Speed) & Vikavolt (Base 43 Speed), who are both known for flying around at high speeds, get outrun by Caterpie, which has Base 45 Speed, among other Pokemon.

I can give numerous examples as to why base stats should be considered an unreliable metric.

Tllmbrg said:

But Pikipek is acting first, so if it chooses something like Brave Bird I don't think Hoothoot is honestly surviving the follow-up

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Presuming that Hoothoot can't react in the time Pikipek is approaching using Brave Bird. Considering Speed is equalized, & Hoothoot is known for changing which foot its standing on very quickly, I'm skeptical of the idea it couldn't dodge, or use Reflect, Confusion, etc.

Tllmbrg said:

Furthermore, it seems like Pikipek gets berries as standard equipment, Oran and Sitrus specifically. Both of those will heal Pikipek, which increases its longevity.

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These are notable if it comes down to short term, I agree.

Tllmbrg said:

Honestly, even though Hoothoot has better haxes I am leaning towards Pikipek winning since Hoothoot's best bet is landing a Hypnosis as otherwise, Pikipek can just beat the shit out Hoothoot

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Even if we don't end up agreeing, I feel it's healthy for a discussion to feature multiple viewpoints. No offense meant.
Though, Pikipek's better offenses are some of the things that are NOT its evident IC tactics. Range also helps Hoothoot.

(Also, I'm surprised I didn't consider Hoothoot using Agility, although, IIRC, it's an Egg Move, & doesn't seem that IC, quick foot-switching aside.)

Imaginym said:

In base stats, which are game mechanics, unless you wanna tell me that Escavalier (Base 20 Speed) & Vikavolt (Base 43 Speed), who are both known for flying around at high speeds, get outrun by Caterpie, which has Base 45 Speed, among other Pokemon.

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I find that funny so I will
Also how is it any more game-mechanicy than giving these birds every move they can learn when in the wild they are never seen with a lot of these
Especially egg moves. At the very least using game stats is more founded than some other practices we already employ for the indexing

Imaginym said:

Presuming that Hoothoot can't react in the time Pikipek is approaching using Brave Bird. Considering Speed is equalized, & Hoothoot is known for changing which foot its standing on very quickly, I'm skeptical of the idea it couldn't dodge, or use Reflect, Confusion, etc.

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Speed is not equal

Tllmbrg said:

I find that funny so I will
Also how is it any more game-mechanicy than giving these birds every move they can learn when in the wild they are never seen with a lot of these

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Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tllmbrg said:

Especially egg moves. At the very least using game stats is more founded than some other practices we already employ for the indexing

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Yeah, but going by Speed feats is better than going by game mechanics, & base stats are hardly even visible to the player, so it's questionable to use them.

Cranidos does not hit harder than Arceus.

Tllmbrg said:

Speed is not equal

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My bad on that point.

Imaginym said:

Yeah, but going by Speed feats is better than going by game mechanics, & base stats are hardly even visible to the player, so it's questionable to use them.

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I mean Pikipek can throw 16 strikes per second, meanwhile, Hoothoot is known for standing around for hours
I feel like if we go that route Pikipek is way faster and a lot more proactive. So by the time Hoothoot does anything it got pecked 16 times and is reeling hard

Tllmbrg said:

I mean Pikipek can throw 16 strikes per second, meanwhile, Hoothoot is known for standing around for hours
I feel like if we go that route Pikipek is way faster and a lot more proactive. So by the time Hoothoot does anything it got pecked 16 times and is reeling hard

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Hoothoot is not exactly slow itself. It does that in less than 1 second, too, presumably, because Hoothoot is notoriously precise & dedicated about keeping the time.

But that's assuming we're not using the current ratings on the profiles.

& again, Pikipek has to get in close range to a foe that has lots of ranged options to do that.

Healthy discussion is fun.

Also, bump.

Imaginym said:

Gold	It always stands on one foot. It changes feet so fast, the movement can rarely be seen.

Hoothoot is not exactly slow itself. It does that in less than 1 second, too, presumably, because Hoothoot is notoriously precise & dedicated about keeping the time.

But that's assuming we're not using the current ratings on the profiles.

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It's more the logic of that the ratings are about the values vs other verses, rather than breaking down the nitty gritty of in-verse scaling
Also I'm not sure how much of it would scale to Hoothoot's combat speed as opposed to Pikipek's pecking, which would still be faster feat wise seeing as it's 16 strikes per second as opposed to one leg swap

Plus Hoothoot refusing to brace itself with both of its feet when attacking or defending means it's liable to get knocked off balance, which further enhances how if Pikipek gets close in Hoothoot is kinda screwed

Dunno what happened, OP looks like this

Tllmbrg said:

It's more the logic of that the ratings are about the values vs other verses,

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Pardon? No offense meant, I just don't understand your syntax.

Tllmbrg said:

rather than breaking down the nitty gritty of in-verse scaling
Also I'm not sure how much of it would scale to Hoothoot's combat speed as opposed to Pikipek's pecking, which would still be faster feat wise seeing as it's 16 strikes per second as opposed to one leg swap

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One movement described such that it can "rarely be seen", which I'd say is suggesting it's very fast.
& their scaling points are very similar, no? I don't like using argument from incredibility, but I'm personally skeptic because of that, of the idea that Pikipek is like, 16 or 8 times faster or so.

Tllmbrg said:

Plus Hoothoot refusing to brace itself with both of its feet when attacking or defending means it's liable to get knocked off balance, which further enhances how if Pikipek gets close in Hoothoot is kinda screwed

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You say that, but it may be good at keeping one-legged balance if it's been doing that its whole life. & trying to get it off balance by hitting its head when Hoothoot spends its life tilting its head in rhythm for timekeeping doesn't seem like it'd work well. Having its head being at an angle would seem natural for Hoothoot, I'd say.
& again, IF Pikipek can get in close. Confusion, Hypnosis & Reflect all greatly hinder that. Agility is also a possibility.

noninho said:

Dunno what happened, OP looks like this

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Looks fine on my end, don't know what to tell you.

Starter_Pack said:

Looks fine on my end, don't know what to tell you.

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Somehow, looks fine now too

Oh well, bugs occur

Hoothoot's reflection should let it recover from Pikipek's attacks along with growl and feather dance lowering attack and the option of confusion to try turning pikipek's attack against them, hoothoot's defog is a way to help ensure hypnosis hits to use dream eater, and while both have recovery hoothoot's echoed voice escalates to the point of one shoting pikipek can also try lowering hoothoot's defenses to one shot but reflect and attack lowering with growl or feather dance can prevent that. (Source smogon damage calculator)

Lou_change said:

snip

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I'm assuming this is a vote for Hoothoot, then?

Yes

Alrighty.

Bump.